Are used RVs getting more expensive with the increased price of new RVs????

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

I read that "used RVs" particularly nice models are selling at a premium price now with the escalation of new Class B's selling over $150,000 and more....

[booster]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

I read that "used RVs" particularly nice models are selling at a premium price now with the escalation of new Class B's selling over $150,000 and more....

I think they went crazy high right as the recession ended because so few new were sold during the recession. They have stayed there ever since, and I haven't noticed a huge increase, but they are all very expensive for what they are, IMO.

[shadow]

A class B is more of a specialty item when it comes to rv"s, you are getting a whole lot of RV in
a small package, so that makes them more expensive to build as compared to a class A or
class B.

You can still find some good deals on class B's, you just have to look harder to find them.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

I think they went crazy high right as the recession ended because so few new were sold during the recession. They have stayed there ever since, and I haven't noticed a huge increase, but they are all very expensive for what they are, IMO.

Crazy indeed, having direct experience of converting my own from the passenger Sprinter I see no reason why it should be any more expensive than a truck/SUV ($50K) with a small RV trailer ($25K) with same functionalities and a like appliances. That is why for average family a trailer is a superior choice, vehicle for driving around and trailer for vacations.

For us $75K was the threshold to go with either a quality camper van fitting our needs or a small 13-16’ trailer. We manage our DIY to be below the threshold excluding my time with top notch appliances and decent fit and finish.

[hepcat]

Absolutely new B-van prices are buoying used prices. I really have no idea why anyone would buy a $1200 a month 20 year mortgage for a new B-van, but apparently RV stores are selling them as fast as they can get them in.

For the REST of us whose income hovers in the "average" range, used B-vans are the only option. I just sold my '95 Coachmen with 67k miles on it (in significantly above-average condition) for $19k backed-up with two $20k offers if the first buyer fell through.

There are deals to be found but you have to be diligent, have cash, and be willing to travel halfway across the country on a moment's notice to get them. That's how I found my Interstate.

[rowiebowie]

When I purchased my used class b in Oct. '2017, I knew I was buying at the top of the market and paid too much. But it was about $10K cheaper than other similar ones I'd found so I considered it the price I had to pay in order to play.

Seems like the market has only gone up since then. Looking back after 1-1/2 years and all I can say is Rv'ing is rediculously extravagant, but we're so happy we bought it. We simply could not have done what we've done any other way and will never regret we did it while we had the health and means to enjoy it.

We may only travel a few more years and sell it. For now, however, we've got more trips to make.

[Knit]

According to RVIA, shipments of class B RVs is down 41% year to date compared to 2018. https://www.rvia.org/news-insights/r...nts-april-2019

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Knit

According to RVIA, shipments of class B RVs is down 41% year to date compared to 2018. https://www.rvia.org/news-insights/r...nts-april-2019

Thanks for the link... Mark Twain is attributed with "There are three kinds of lies; lies, d@mned lies, and statistics."

Cherry picked by itself, this looks disastrous for Class B coaches. When you look at it in absolute terms, it's only 700 units that haven't shipped compared with last year... and there were only 1800 units shipped in 2018. My guess is that Roadtrek/Hymer alone could account for much of that.

When compared with "towables," it looks even worse as they're only down 23%, BUT in real numbers, that's actually some 28,000 units. I'd think that's more significant industry-wide than the 700 B-Van units.

Both Class A and Class B motorhomes are also down about 25%. In fact the entire industry appears to have shipped about 25% fewer RVs of all types so far this year. So, it would be interesting to know why demand is slowing for RVs of all types. Have we finally hit saturation? Is money tighter? Have the boomers bought all the RVs they want?

It would also be interesting to analyse the numbers by the dollar amount percentage of total industry profit generated by RV type. That isn't on the chart, but would be interesting to have broken out.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by shadow

A class B is more of a specialty item when it comes to rv"s, you are getting a whole lot of RV in
a small package, so that makes them more expensive to build as compared to a class A or
class B.

You can still find some good deals on class B's, you just have to look harder to find them.

I agree that they're more of a specialty item, but you're getting the exact same features and appliances you get in any other RV. Perhaps there's more expense in design in that engineers are constrained by the van structure, and that changes with each model year and adaptations have to be made. I think that the real issue with the expense is that they're using more and more expensive interior materials, and that as there are only a couple of thousand built industry-wide annually that the fixed costs of design and manufacture aren't spread across as many units sold. Finished vans are also more expensive to purchase for the upfitting than cutaway chassis are.

[Davydd]

The entire RV industry is down. That's true but Class Bs are down more. Agreed Hymer/Roadtrek might have some impact but there is no one picking up the slack. There might be an uptick in DIY vans but that doesn't help the RV industry. Boomers have another 10 years to run for full retirement and that is a rate of 10,000 per day and that is the biggest market for Class Bs and the so called young families and #vanlife millennials market are not making up that slack. The last recession the RV industry was the canary in the cage. Hopefully there will be no recession but clearly people are reordering their recreational priorities.

Families, noting my own kids, grandkids (anecdotal I know), don't have time for recreational camping to the point of investing in RV equipment. They are structured more around community based organized sports and other endeavors that didn't exist for baby boomers or even my kids. In Minnesota what is considered an adjunct to camping, fishing, is way down. Maybe they are discouraged by competition for camp sites as there are not as many per capita. Boomers are more and more seeking out boondocking opportunities like Walmart parking lots to Harvest Host especially in the summer months. The Feds are clamping down on BLM dispersed camping. Those are hardly family recreational desire.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by hepcat

I agree that they're more of a specialty item, but you're getting the exact same features and appliances you get in any other RV. Perhaps there's more expense in design in that engineers are constrained by the van structure, and that changes with each model year and adaptations have to be made. I think that the real issue with the expense is that they're using more and more expensive interior materials, and that as there are only a couple of thousand built industry-wide annually that the fixed costs of design and manufacture aren't spread across as many units sold. Finished vans are also more expensive to purchase for the upfitting than cutaway chassis are.

Good comments. Yes, I think you are right about finished vans costing more and from my observations... the interiors of Class B's generally are nicer...the money is spent on the finishing details not building a larger exterior box constructed by fiberglass...

Also, the R &D to fit all of these components into a more compact space is definitely more challenging. There's less room for error.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The entire RV industry is down. That's true but Class Bs are down more. Agreed Hymer/Roadtrek might have some impact but there is no one picking up the slack. There might be an uptick in DIY vans but that doesn't help the RV industry. Boomers have another 10 years to run for full retirement and that is a rate of 10,000 per day and that is the biggest market for Class Bs and the so called young families and #vanlife millennials market are not making up that slack. The last recession the RV industry was the canary in the cage. Hopefully there will be no recession but clearly people are reordering their recreational priorities.

Families, noting my own kids, grandkids (anecdotal I know), don't have time for recreational camping to the point of investing in RV equipment. They are structured more around community based organized sports and other endeavors that didn't exist for baby boomers or even my kids. In Minnesota what is considered an adjunct to camping, fishing, is way down. Maybe they are discouraged by competition for camp sites as there are not as many per capita. Boomers are more and more seeking out boondocking opportunities like Walmart parking lots to Harvest Host especially in the summer months. The Feds are clamping down on BLM dispersed camping. Those are hardly family recreational desire.

Dave, I think your comments are perfect....

I think you're right about Class B's... they are not designed for families....if they desire an RV...it will be a Class A or C...

I didn't know that the Feds are "clamping down'" on BLM lands? Are you saying that they are closing them?

I can understand "dispersed camping", especially if people are not following the rules and abusing the camp areas? I've heard of many instances where people dump illegally... which is disgusting and bad for the environment...a real mess....

Otherwise, your remarks about the "baby boomers" and about 10 maybe even 15 years left is about what I figured.... time is essential.... you can't do anything about that.

The only thing I've noticed is that there's a growing segment of people who purchase an RV to "live in"....so they can own place rather than rent an apartment....a number of articles keep popping up on this subject....

Rents are really expensive in Southern California... especially LA.... I'm not sure in long run if it's really less expensive.....

I do think that the rapid rise in the price of Class B's... some of them like your Advanced RV.... over $225,000 and even regular Class B's in the $150,000 range...are putting pressure on the used vehicle market..... Nice used ones would sell for a premium if you can even find them? Remember, there's less units made and in circulation.

Most people are not able or willing to spend $150,000 or more on any RV let alone a smaller Class B.....

Yes, absolutely a niche market... limited audience.....

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by hepcat

I agree that they're more of a specialty item, but you're getting the exact same features and appliances you get in any other RV. Perhaps there's more expense in design in that engineers are constrained by the van structure, and that changes with each model year and adaptations have to be made. I think that the real issue with the expense is that they're using more and more expensive interior materials, and that as there are only a couple of thousand built industry-wide annually that the fixed costs of design and manufacture aren't spread across as many units sold. Finished vans are also more expensive to purchase for the upfitting than cutaway chassis are.

Good points about B functionalities being the same as in many trailers, campers or Cs. Being space constrained in a van is not much different than in a fixed fiberglass trailer shells. Sprinter chassis was the same for the last 10 years so not much modifications was needed. As a comparison an 18.5’ state-of-the-art, 4 season capable (double shell https://olivertraveltrailers.com/oli...-construction/ ) high-quality Oliver Trailer is about $50K which includes fiberglass double shell, aluminum frame, wheels, and suspension. With Li batteries it would be $75K.

I believe B-prices have little to do with costs, the retirees market segment is willing to pay. This industry will suffer with possible economy downturn and retirees slowly loosing interest.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Good points about B functionalities being the same as in many trailers, campers or Cs. Being space constrained in a van is not much different than in a fixed fiberglass trailer shells. Sprinter chassis was the same for the last 10 years so not much modifications was needed. As a comparison an 18.5’ state-of-the-art, 4 season capable (double shell https://olivertraveltrailers.com/oli...-construction/ ) high-quality Oliver Trailer is about $50K which includes fiberglass double shell, aluminum frame, wheels, and suspension. With Li batteries it would be $75K.

I believe B-prices have little to do with costs, the retirees market segment is willing to pay. This industry will suffer with possible economy downturn and retirees slowly loosing interest.

Maybe.. I can see that if you are full time?

As for the downturn.... people who have money will still be interested....

The Class B RV is really designed for touring... not living in, and for active lifestyles.....

I don't recall if you or someone else said.., you live out of a Class B.... not inside of it. Very true.

If I want or need more inside space.... I'll just stay home.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The entire RV industry is down. That's true but Class Bs are down more. Agreed Hymer/Roadtrek might have some impact but there is no one picking up the slack. There might be an uptick in DIY vans but that doesn't help the RV industry. Boomers have another 10 years to run for full retirement and that is a rate of 10,000 per day and that is the biggest market for Class Bs and the so called young families and #vanlife millennials market are not making up that slack. The last recession the RV industry was the canary in the cage. Hopefully there will be no recession but clearly people are reordering their recreational priorities.

Families, noting my own kids, grandkids (anecdotal I know), don't have time for recreational camping to the point of investing in RV equipment. They are structured more around community based organized sports and other endeavors that didn't exist for baby boomers or even my kids. In Minnesota what is considered an adjunct to camping, fishing, is way down. Maybe they are discouraged by competition for camp sites as there are not as many per capita. Boomers are more and more seeking out boondocking opportunities like Walmart parking lots to Harvest Host especially in the summer months. The Feds are clamping down on BLM dispersed camping. Those are hardly family recreational desire.

The Feds are clamping down on BLM dispersed camping. Those are hardly family recreational desire.

https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-to-blm-camping-498509

There's places we've stayed at like Hitttlebottom campground near Arches National Park...it was a BLM with vault toilets, camp host and ultra clean facility...,. Our rate was $7.50 per night.... senior citizen rate... 50 percent off the regular price.

If you mean just camping out in the sticks... We normally don't do that.. .

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

The Feds are clamping down on BLM dispersed camping. Those are hardly family recreational desire.

https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-to-blm-camping-498509

There's places we've stayed at like Hitttlebottom campground near Arches National Park...it was a BLM with vault toilets, camp host and ultra clean facility...,. Our rate was $7.50 per night.... senior citizen rate... 50 percent off the regular price.

If you mean just camping out in the sticks... We normally don't do that.. .

That's a controlled campground. Did I not say dispersed sites? Land that was previously available for free dispersed camping is being closed down because campers are not carrying out their waste, tramping down vegetation and defacing rocks with graffiti. That is going on in BLM and National Forest land from overuse.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Davydd

That's a controlled campground. Did I not say dispersed sites? Land that was previously available for free dispersed camping is being closed down because campers are not carrying out their waste, tramping down vegetation and defacing rocks with graffiti. That is going on in BLM and National Forest land from overuse.

David, maybe I misunderstood your meaning, sorry..
We've only used BLM campgrounds once, not the open dispersed camping......

Yeah, I think that people who are scofflaws should be cited and fined for destroying property and ruining it for the rest of the us. It's NOT GOOD.

[RossWilliams]

RV sales have always gone up and down. Sales the last few years have been historic records by a significant margin. There had never been a year with 400,000+ shipments prior to 2016. The closest was a decade earlier in 2006 with 390,000, 40,000 less than 2016. Its unlikely the current decline is indicative of a historic trend.

The crackdown on "dispersed camping" seems to be mostly a crackdown on living on BLM land or in a National Forest. That has always been illegal but it was unusual. The growth of full timers and boondocking has made it a tempting alternative for people looking for a free spot to live.

The other thing is that social media has turned some "dispersed camping" spots into informal campgrounds. Rather than occasional use, they are becoming permanent parts of the landscape without the facilities needed to support that intense use.

I doubt that "crackdown" has had much impact on the new RV market. The long term economic trends may eventually. The reality is that the middle class that drives the RV market is shrinking. The upper end may not see much impact from that, but the mid and lower price ranges will. People retiring with a million bucks in the bank or the equivalent pension are going to be a rare breed.

[Jostalli]

I spoke with a guy who is building a site to catalog all of the van builders worldwide. He told me there were over 100 professional van builders from LA to San Diego (where our company is located).

[Lanex005]

Hail damage destroyed our rear vents on2002 roadtrek popular on dodge chassis-unable to get parts- Found Hoffman Metal working to make new ones! Just finished and they look great. Cost $400-500 depending on time- my cost was $475. What a relief. To get this repair done. Now just waiting for a roof window. Then all water tight and ready to go.

Golf ball size hail for 25 minutes with 15-50 mph winds very scary.