Advancing Alvar

[bobojay]

David, when you were there did they say if the extra alternator was a Mercedes part or aftermarket?

[booster]

Dayyd's pic shows a Delphi. so it would not be an MB part.

[Davydd]

I'm pretty sure it was after market. I am not sure if that display placard was accurate in that they could have been using an alternator from a photo file source to just illustrate. Here are the notes I took during the workshop. I didn't write down what the source was but I am pretty sure Mercedes Benz was not part of it.

Three methods for charging sans propane generator:

Shore Power
Solar
Second 200 amp alternator - engine idling or driving.

High idle takes about 1/2 gallon diesel per hour.

Safe to idle up to 3 hours per day as long as there is a 30-45 minute drive between idles.

Silverleaf total coach control can autostart engine if low battery is detected and idle engine up to 2 hours. It would then shut down. If you step on break to engage transmission the engine will also shut down.

Advanced RV sent out a set of summary notes on the workshop to attendees and didn't say either. Their notes did add this tidbit of information saying that, "We use Silverleaf to control power flow." I should have looked under the hood of the finished Bs that were there but I didn't.

[pattonsr]

The placard says "custom 3 stage charge controller". Now if Advanced RV would explain this in detail, we can stop guessing how they might do it. Of course it is possible they are still working on the solution. But it appears they have committed to an aux alternator that is standard and not an option.

Of course once Advanced RV spills the beans, we can move on to discussing the thin film solar panels and are they better than the GS100 panels from AM Solar.

[Davydd]

From what I can tell these solar panels on an Advanced RV they illustrate on their website photo are AM Solar GO160 Panels



They also stated in their Advanced Fest workshop notes:

Solar panels:

Should we wait on solar panels? ?There are low profile, mono-crystal, roof rack mounted, 500W, European solar panels made in Germany and Britain. These are expensive. We are working on alternative sources. We suggest you wait 3 months.

They mentioned the possibility of a custom air conditioning cover that you could mount a solar panel to boost wattage further. Like everything else it seems nothing is static. If those panels in the photo are the GO160 panels then I am guessing my B would be similar in configuration. That's 320 watts I believe.

[gerrym51]

Roadtrek appears to use Low frequency pure sine inverters. I base this on the fact the Aims remote control panel they show only appears on Aims webpage under the Low Frequency pure sine inverter section.

Low Frequency are not state of the art like high frequency but their claim to fame is that they hold starting surges longer. I read this-I am not an expert


the topic on this site that we have persued has me learning.

[pattonsr]

Davddd. Your Sprinter will have more roof space than the non-extended Sprinter shown in the picture. On the AM Solar website the solar panel section has a write up on thin flexible panels that AM Solar had field tested and found problems with.

I pointed out this write up to Mike N. months ago. If Advanced RV can improve on an GS100 panel hats off to them.

[booster]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

The placard says "custom 3 stage charge controller". Now if Advanced RV would explain this in detail, we can stop guessing how they might do it. Of course it is possible they are still working on the solution. But it appears they have committed to an aux alternator that is standard and not an option.

Of course once Advanced RV spills the beans, we can move on to discussing the thin film solar panels and are they better than the GS100 panels from AM Solar.

I agree. From the pic, if it isthe right one, the charge controller has to be a separate item, as it doesn't appear to be in the unit. I know Sterling makes a lot of variations of 12v to 12v and other voltage combinations, but I would expect there are also high end ones made by others.

Don't tell me our panels are already obsolete , I just put them on a little while ago. When I was reading on solar, I remember some comments about the expensive German panels having things like many more bypass diodes to improve shading issues.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

Davddd. Your Sprinter will have more roof space than the non-extended Sprinter shown in the picture. On the AM Solar website the solar panel section has a write up on thin flexible panels that AM Solar had field tested and found problems with.

I pointed out this write up to Mike N. months ago. If Advanced RV can improve on an GS100 panel hats off to them.

I know I can get more solar. If you look at Mzungu in that The Fit RV review video you'll they have covered the roof as much as they possibly could. I believe that one has about 500-600 watts. I guess right now I do not need that much as I have never been in the E-Trek camp desire to feel a need for that all-day air conditioning. I think I've made that clear over and over. I want enough to drop the generator and propane, primarily use the coffee pot and microwave in a dry camp situation and simply not have to make a decision on whether to seek an electrical connection. Use of electrical in an RV is elective to a certain extent and should be manageable. I can't think of anything more obnoxious in a wilderness camping situation of having to run an air conditioner and a generator at the same time. The Advanced RV air conditioner draws 150 amps so theoretically you could run it a couple of hours with four lithium-ion batteries and get a couple more hours idling the engine. I probably would simply never attempt that. Maybe over a lunch hour for a cat? Maybe but probably not then either. A daytime hike at a trailhead? I'm good for about an hour for that in such a situation if it is that hot.

I didn't read where he was referring to those flexible glue down panels at all. I don't think they provide any advantage other than that flexible glue down capacity and I don't see how that could happen on a convex ribbed roof Sprinter.

Isn't the GO160 panel an improvement over the GS100? If I am examining that Advanced RV photo right it certainly looks likes a GO160.

[gerrym51]

Unless your sitting and not starting engine for days on end- Solar panels are overated in a B. in a trailer or 5er i would say differently.

[Davydd]

gerrym51,

That's the point. When you drive a B 60 miles up the dead end Gunflint Trail and camp at the National Forest Trails End campground there is a good chance you'll sit for a few days and enjoy the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. That's one of my favorite campgrounds. Once there I would not mind being parked for a few days with no electrical worries and there is not a lot you'll need to drive to. I think that is what Booster is trying to achieve as well.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

gerrym51,

That's the point. When you drive a B 60 miles up the dead end Gunflint Trail and camp at the National Forest Trails End campground there is a good chance you'll sit for a few days and enjoy the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. That's one of my favorite campgrounds. Once there I would not mind being parked for a few days with no electrical worries and there is not a lot you'll need to drive to. I think that is what Booster is trying to achieve as well.

Amen--exactly correct

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Amen--exactly correct

wouldn't running the van engine for an hour make sense also. seems as you are planning for the exeptions as opposed to the normal

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

wouldn't running the van engine for an hour make sense also. seems as you are planning for the exeptions as opposed to the normal

I'd rather no do that anymore than I would want to run a generator. I wouldn't want to disturb my camping neighbors who could be tent campers and I wouldn't want to scare the wildlife away or drown out the cry of the loon. That option is available to me, but like a generator with me historically, I have managed to avoid that situation pretty well. That option also makes a generator more than redundant. It would never be needed. Of course I wouldn't mind driving 30 miles down to the Trail Center Cafe and Bar, one of my favorite watering holes if I needed a charge.

[Davydd]

I just did an interesting exercise. I went to the Roadtrek site and built my own CS Adventurous including everything possible that I am ordering for an Advanced RV, or at least everything Roadtrek had available as options that approximated what I am ordering. The build couldn't be identical, obviously. Beds won't be the same. My van will not have a third seat. Roadtrek doesn't have side retractable screens, VB Air Suspension, built in safe, and who knows what else like a level 2 sound system, insulation, Hushmat, Silverleaf control and many other details. I didn't factor in which van would have the better equipment and appliances which could be an arguable opinion. I suspect, heck I know, my finishes will be better. My opinion is the workmanship from Advanced RV will be better based not only on logic of how much time they take comparatively but also visual, feel and poking around knowledge of both. Well anyway, the price came to :::drum roll:::

$162,242 MSRP for the Roadtrek CS Adventurous.

The suggested prices in Advanced RV's website of their inventory doesn't seem out of line when you factor in everything. People quote base prices in wishful belief. And of course everyone quotes their actual purchase price against the other company's MSRP price.

I don't know of any other converter, besides Roadtrek, that can come close to the design package options (ARV ecoOasis vs RT E-Trek for instance) and other features of the Advanced RV other than maybe Great West Vans' willingness to similarly customize if a customer wanted it. Great West Vans, though, isn't actively promoting those level of features which then means I assume they aren't doing their own development.

BTW, Advanced RV said Mzungu was sold. That was their black color concept RV with the VB Air suspension, ecoOasis package and 4 cylinder engine.

[obgraham]

Davydd:
I realize that this thread is about an RV and a Finnish architect (!), and your quest to a really nice new RV.

But I don't see the point of running down the competition. You chose your rig for a number of reasons, and doubtless it'll be a fine RV. Likewise, I chose my (yet to be delivered) CS, with most all the available options, for my reasons, also -- I like the reputation, factory support, and moderately widespread dealer network. I preferred not to have a one-off vehicle. I've looked in a bunch of them and I like the workmanship, efforts at QC, and overall quality of design. Most of all, the floorplan and amenities suits what I want.

We can dredge up all the issues we wish -- diesel fuel problems, insulation, complexity of the electronics. In the end, though, we will probably be pleased with the rigs we own. Spending time bemoaning what some other rig is like, isn't productive, to me.

[bikerbill]

Davyyd, you are wrong. You probably added too many duplicate items on the Roadtrek site. If you chose the E-Trek package for the CS Adventerous, then you don't add in the other things from the package that can be added separately. I know for a fact that a Roadtrek built out with all options including delivery to a local dealer is $150,278. I have the quote in my hand. I did not order the optional Armoire that can be interchanged with the 3rd seat as it will not need more storage. And this is the extended chassis model. And yes, they do not have the sliding side screen door available---YET and I did not order optional color schemes because they are not yet released for the extended version. Nor did I order the filing bed that fits across the front seats nor did I order any color than SILVER since that is all they have available in extended chassis until the 2015's arrive later this year. And yes,, Advanced has the optional air ride suspension available which in the future will probably be an aftermarket install by someone. Sure I can't get Silverleaf but it comes with a Sony sound system for the dash radio or the TV: not sure what your "level 2" sound is.

The other important thing to keep in mind, Advanced will not trade in a vehicle, Roadtrek dealers will and they will DISCOUNT the retail price of the Roadtrek. Some dealers will discount upwards to 20% from the retail, depending on how much they want the order, what the deal may be on the trade and if the factory is offering any special discounts for orders.

Also, when the time comes to sell or trade, a Roadtrek is well known in the industry. Mar 2014 Roadtrek had 40.5% market share. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE THE ADVANCED RV. We visited them last fall and would love to have ordered one and was willing to wait. But we were working with a budget and they then were beyond it by $10,000 and now they are probably $25,000 beyond it based on prices I've seen on their web page. Are they worth it? Is there quality and higher price worth the difference? To my wife and I, NO. I don't know what you background in RV's are but I know how much they lose in value and until Advanced has 50-150 units on the street, they will always be an "orphan" in the industry. Last year they could not even attend the Hershey PA RV show since they do not have a dealer network. Direct sale manufacturers are not allowed. I have nothing but best wishes for Mike and Advnaced. He's paving the way for some of the others to follow and hopefully they will.

[Davydd]

I was pointing out the fact the MSRP of a CS was stratosopheric just as Advanced RV when you really try to compare apples to apples since so many people had commented about those posted prices on the Advanced RV website. And I pointed out the differences. This will be my third B, and maybe my last, and I don't want to be limited to what's available in a very small pool of B converters. But I think I did point out Roadtrek came the closest of even offering enough options and that's why I did the exercise. Roadtrek was the only one available easily to do. I've looked at Sportsmobile in the past and suppose I could have done the same analysis, but I do like the factor that ARV and RT start out with a strong foundation of design and integrated worked out systems, so it isn't up to you to throw together a kit of parts.

Addressing some of your other points, the CS plan is a major improvement over the RS, IMO, but still no cigar for me. So, you are right that it is an individual thing for what suits you. However, I wasn't comparing that factor. Diesel is a mutual point good or bad between RT and ARV. In regard to insulation, if Mascoat, it is a scam that companies are falsely promoting, IMO. I see Roadtrek as a victim if they are believing it. I'm not sure they are using it because I did not see it in their video. That was something BikerBill claimed. The electronics: It was Roadtrek that originated the outlandish 9 hours on air conditioning claim that set off a firestorm discussion. The plus benefit is it got a lot of people looking into the practicality of batteries, charging, solar and systems. Before that, the B converters were set in the ways of old school. Pleasure-way to this day will still only give you one auxiliary battery. They are just not willing to go beyond their tried and true of the past 20 years last I checked. Dealer network is kind of a luck of the draw. A lot of people select their Bs for that convenience. Yes, I had to drive 700 miles to Cleveland as there are no dealers. If I need repairs I can go to any dealer and ARV will back the warranty. I'd most likely go to my favorite local Roadtrek dealer. Quality and workmanship was my opinion. Degree of quality is an acceptance issue comparable to Chevy vs Cadillac. There is no unacceptable Bs on the market I am aware of in quality and workmanship. Reputation? Clearly good. Roadtrek is numero uno in B sales as is McDonalds in hamburgers. I think in both cases you have a solidly good idea of knowing exactly what you are getting and you are not disappointed.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I was pointing out the fact the MSRP of a CS was stratosopheric just as Advanced RV when you really try to compare apples to apples since so many people had commented about those posted prices on the Advanced RV website. And I pointed out the differences.

Davy,
As a point of clarification: By the above, did you mean to imply that Advanced RVs prices were routinely discounted in the same way that RoadTrek's are? I have always assumed that for ARV, the price was the price. If this is true, then the comparison you suggest is apes to oranges. If it is not true, that would be interesting information.

[Belzar]

Davyyd - Thank you for opening this discussion of pricing on high-end B's. The CS Roadtrek etrek is around $150k msrp, but retail is typically about 15% off that...sometimes up to $20% if one finds the right model on a motivated dealer's lot when new model years are coming in. (2015 Sprinters should start coming to dealers in fall.) As an ARV customer, what has been your experience on their actual price vs their msrp's on the web site?