Advancing Alvar

[Davydd]

pattonsr,

What am I missing here? Advanced RV is using the Outback Inverter/Charger and the Outback description says this:

"OutBack Power’s true sine wave inverter/charger is a complete power solution. It incorporates a DC to AC sine wave inverter, battery charger and AC transfer relay housed within a die-cast aluminum chassis. Intelligent multi-stage battery charging reduces generator runtime and prolongs the life of your batteries."

If the Silverleaf controller is able to monitor batteries, program to start and shut off the M-B diesel engine would it not be able to control power from the alternator if the Outback is not already doing so?

[pattonsr]

The Outback inverter/charger only sees the input power coming from shore power or a generator via a transfer switch. If no generator then no transfer switch is needed.

The second alternator feeds its power directly to the battery house bank regulated by an external regulator. The second alternative is to feed the alternator output to a black box that will invert it to 120v and onward to the transfer switch.

The Outback is only involved in the second alternative. In the first case your batteries are at the mercy of the unknown external regulator. I know Advanced RV looked at the second alternative long ago by bringing in a turnkey system. That system worked fine except it had its own alternator and bracket. Also the alternator fan was irritating and a bracket for the 4 cylinder was not available.

The Silverleaf gets its connection to the Outback inverter/charger via a serial interface to the Mate display which is on the side of the refrigerator. The Silverleaf monitors batteries by using only voltage and has a few simple commands it can send to the Mate via the serial interface. The real control of the Outback inverter/charger is via the Mate which I am sure Advanced RV does not document. The Outback manuals are not easy reading as opposed to the user friendly Magnum manuals.

The reason that Advanced RV uses the Outback is for the serial interface to the Mate. The Silverleaf touch screen controls much more than the Outback. Any device that can be put on the RV-C bus will be monitored by the Silverleaf. Think of the RV-C bus like the Mercedes Can Bus. The founder of Silverleaf, Martin Perlot, was a driving force on the RV-C standards committee.

Everything is controlled by the Silverleaf except for the Surge Guard EMS which has its own remote in the space behind the Silverleaf display. I like the Silverleaf integration. Newells and Foretravels have the same system. I hope Advanced RV implements battery monitoring so we have an idea of what is happening to the large battery bank.

I know this is way too much detail unless one like to parse a serial interface.

[bikerbill]

Why is there a 2nd alternator/generator on the Advanced and also on the Roadtrek. Probably because today's new vehicle's alternators and I'm sure that the Mercedes factory installed engine alternator falls into this category is computer controlled. In doing so it actually cuts in and out as needed based on the charge state in the engine start battery. What this means is as you are driving your vehicle and the various automotive electrical needs are satisfied, i.e.: battery is full, radio is off, then the alternator, while still spinning will sort of go into an electrical neutral charging mode. This then correlates into less engine horsepower. Its all about saving fuel and increasing miles/gallon today. And its not just Mecerdes that is doing this.

[gerrym51]

since i've been reading this thread i have started researching Roadtreks under hood generator options NOT for the E-trek. they do have one which uses the 3500 watt underhood generator and a 2500 watt inverter/charger.

it appears it's managed by something called AIMS. it says it will power the 10,200 btu cool cat and it depends on how much battery power you have.

if I can get it to work for my cats for a couple of hours i may go that way.

I will only do this because the 10,200 cool cat will run on a Honda/yamaha inverter 2000 watt generator i intend to carry

one thing i did learn in the manual-saw a picture- is it looks like an alternator. Roadtrek says these units use a different size SERPENTINE BELT than standard and you should carry one.

However even though it appears to be a BIG alternator it still cautions you to close all windows and vent fans. Maybe engine fumes caution?

just info

i think it works like this

http://www.aurasystems.com/pages/prod_intro.html

[booster]

What Magnum charger is Advanced using? I would be very interested to see the charging profile. When I went looking for the replacement charger for our system, the only one I found that ended absorption based on ending current instead of timers was the Blue Sea. With all of the systems, I don't know how you can prevent over or under charging if you have the profile on timers. We currently are looking at that on our solar, which will do the same over/under that a shore charger will.

[pattonsr]

Advanced is not using Magnum, only Outback.

If one was using a Magnum with a Magnum battery monitor, then one could use return amps (ending current) or best of all State of Charge (SOC) to end the Absorb stage. I am not very familiar with Outback but would assume if their battery monitor was used they would have the same options available.

I mentioned previously a boater modifying a Balmar regulator. All he had to work with was a timed Absorb stage. No ending current and no SOC. So if Advanced uses an external regulator to manage the second alternator, how well it does the Absorb stage is something to look closely at. A short timed Absorb stage will probably eliminate overcharging but leave the battery bank not 100% charged which is ok for Lithium, but not for Lifeline AGM. This is only a problem if one is not hooked to shore power and expects a full charge from the second alternator while driving to the next dry camping site.

[booster]

Hi pattonsr,

I was just looking at the Magnum site, and I must be missing something. I found the remote monitor, which looks to be pretty similar to a Trimetric in function, but I couldn't find any information about it being capable of putting the charger into float based on the ending amps. I looked at one of the chargers it was compatible with, and it showed the absorption to be a fixed time based on the AH of the battery bank. It also said that if the charger sees 12.8 volts on plug in, it will go directly to float. This is what I had trouble with using the Trip-lite. If there is any surface charge from driving, solar, whatever, holding up the voltage on a low battery, the charger will not go into absorption to charge the low battery. Any info as to where to look would be greatly appreciated.

[pattonsr]

Try pages 33-35 in the document below:

http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/u...ME-ARC_Web.pdf

On page 33 section 03E will start in on Absorb Done (Time, Amps, SOC). Read through page 35 section 03F.

I don't know what you were looking at, but the remote controls the inverter advanced settings.

On page 63 it mentions going into Float when AC first plugged in if the battery is >13.0 VDC. It then mentions the Restart Bulk setting to force the issue if you so desire.

[booster]

It appears that I was looking at the battery monitor, as you mentioned in the previous post. They call the one in the link an Advanced Remote. Interesting that the charger sheet for MSH-M says 12.8 volts to go directly to float and the remote sheet says 13.0 volts. The remote must alter that setting. I think you would have to do the manual override to bulk sometimes, but it didn't sesem clear if it was a pure override or not. I think it said to hit the "try again" or similar. It definitely would be ahead of nearly all other chargers in that you can set the ending amps, which from what I have seen is way better than the other methods. Even using SOC throws in a bunch of stuff like charge efficiency and Peukert, which can mess up the accuracy. I have learned that by watching the Trimetric and taking hydrometer readings, finding it is easy to be as much as 15% off. They recommend using 5% for the ending amps which is pretty high. Blue Sea says 1%, but test to see what it really is by doing a long charge and watching what the amps level off at. Trojan says 1-3% range, and liked testing when I talked to them. Our GC2 Trojans are well under the 1% at 1.6 amps for 260AH (at 14.6 volts), and our SCS200 12 volt Trojan is over 1% at about 2 amps for 115AH.

Ir looks lie they have a nice charger and includes a good inverter, which is even better. Does the Outback that Advanced uses compare well to the Magnum?

[pattonsr]

The Outback 2800 compares very well with the Magnum 2812. A new Magnum MSH3012M is a hybrid that works like the old Trace boost but the MSH3012M is a pure sine. One can park in a driveway and plug into house outlet. The MSH3012M will supplement the 15 amps with battery power and provide up to 3000s watts to supplement the 15 amps.

Most of the old Trace engineers work at Magnum.

[booster]

It looks like the Outback 2800 also uses the remote panel to make it programmable. The Mate 3 looks to have built in MPPT controller, also, or at least it can control one. Interesting that they show that you can program the ending amps on the solar controller, but not on battery charger. The more I see of our system, it may be more important to have the ending amps on the solar, but best if on both. Is Advanced using the Outback to control the solar also?

[gerrym51]

I'm still trying to get my head around this underhood generator.

as i understand it the main engine is (at least for roadtrek) is pumping a 3500 watt alternator into an inverter to create ac power. this is what a

Honda 2000 inverter generator does. so it is making the main engine -in effect- an inverter generator.

However the issue that arises is when the engine is not running and the inverter is forced to draw power from the batteries.

do i understand this correctly.

as long as the main engine is running the inverter should have no problem furnishing it rated watts as long as engine is running.

[pattonsr]

gerrym51,

Trying to understand what Roadtrek has done with their E-trek is difficult because of the wild marketing claims.

A generator provides 120v like shore power. They can be underneath or external like a Honda 2000 or Yamaha 2000. If external they act like shore power. If internal a transfer switch must be used to switch between shore and the internal generator.

An second engine alternator usually goes through an external regulator and then straight to the battery bank.

Roadtrek calls their engine alternator a generator which has lead to wild speculation on how they did it. I spoke with a engineer at Roadetrek and he admitted they used at that time a Nations alternator. I asked him why they called it a generator and he said marketing did not want to explain what they were doing and so they called their magic power source a generator to make it simple for customers.

A Honda inverter generator produces clean pure sine 120v by using an internal inverter to product the 120v. This is not a new concept. Large Class A's usually use a 12,000 watt Onan QD pure sine diesel generator. The QD Onan uses an internal inverter to produce pure sine. Most other generators including expensive home stand by generators product a pretty good wave form but it is not pure sine like shore power.

I know of one company, MIPS, who uses this idea to provide mobile TV trucks and ambulances with mobile clean power. They use their own engine bracket and alternator to feed 12v power to a shoe box size black box that inverts and outputs 120v.

Advanced RV brought in one of their systems and it worked just as advertised except for the fact that the MIPS alternator had a shrill fan noise that on a Sprinter was unacceptable. Advanced even coated the fan and lowered the noise but there was still the problem of the bracket that only worked for 6 cylinder Sprinters.

But the concept was sound. The 120v output could be routed to the transfer switch just like an underneath propane generator.

The MIPS system has a control panel that allowed the additional engine alternator to standby and not produce power thereby lowering the horsepower drain on the MB engine. However the alternator still spun and the fan still made a racket.

The other approach is to use a quiet alternator that could be used with the MB factory brackets for both 4 cyl and 6 cyl. What Advanced RV is doing after that is a secret. It could be an external regulator with hopefully decent 3 stage charging which includes more than a timed Absorb. Or maybe they will use a MIPS like box that produces 120v to be fed to a transfer switch. Then the Outback VFX2812 can have full control of how charging is done (including solar I think). That would be the ultimate solution.

[pattonsr]

Booster,

To fully appreciate what Advanced RV is doing, let me describe how their power system differs from everyone else except for the Roadtrek E-trek.

Normally power is fed to a main panel that supports high amp devices like A/C, convection ovens, etc. Then for a Sprinter B a 30 breaker feeds power to an inverter/charger that either passes it through or inverts from batteries to supply power to a sub panel which feels the inverted circuits.

Advanced RV feeds the power straight to the inverter/charger and then to the main panel which everything is hooked to including A/C.

A/C units may only draw 17 amps but have a start up rush over 60 amps. The marine division of Dometic came up with a solution for boaters who wanted to run their Cruise air 16000 btu units using a Honda 2000. Dometic came up with Smart Start, a little box that replaces the capacitor in the roof unit. It smooths out the start up rush and allows even a Honda 2000 to start up the Dometic AC.

Dometic is not marketing the Smart Start to RV folks since it costs more than $400. Advanced RV uses this box to allow starting the roof AC from the Outback inverter/charger.

The Outback relevant devices are the following:

VFX2812 2800 watt inverter/charger which can be overloaded to 3400 watts for a reasonable time to allow an induction cooktop, convection oven, and a hair dryer to run. Tests showed that a Magnum MS2812 did not have the same level of overload capacity. The new Magnum MSH3012M has not been tested so it may have a better overload capacity than the MS2812.

The remote display is a Mate or equivalent. Mounted on the side of the refrigerator.

The solar controller is the FLEXmax 60. A very sophisticated controller with 60 amp capacity which is overkill for a B roof but is the smallest one Outback makes. It outputs to the Mate. I do not believe it supports the serial interface on the Mate.

The battery monitor is the FLEXnet DC. It outputs to the Mate and supports the serial interface on the Mate. Advanced RV has not yet installed this device to the best of my knowledge. It requires a shunt on the batteries and all in and out power goes through the shunt (including solar). You are using the standalone Trimetric to provide this function.

Silverleaf HMS360 touch screen display. If you saw the Fit RV people video, you saw their reaction. You have to buy a Newell or Foretravel to see this device otherwise. It talks to the Mate via the serial interface. So when one wants to change the input shore power to 20 amps the Silverleaf will make it easy. You could use the Mate directly but the touch screen interface is nicer. If the FLEXnet DC is implemented, then one would have to use the Mate to see, for example, SOC since Silverleaf at this time has not supported the serial data stream that pertains to the FLEXnet DC. A Newell owner probably never leaves the power pedestal and so dry camping battery capacity is not needed.

The Silverleaf interfaces with many more devices than just the Outback Mate. I think at this time solar info is only shown on the Mate.

Just for additional information, Magnum has equivalent products except for the solar controller. Look at the AmSolar website to see what they recommend. The Magnum Advanced remote would replace the Mate and be used for all functions except for solar which has its own remote display. The Silverleaf would lose a little functionality but still is needed for all the other functions, tank levels, a/c, heat, water fill etc.

One last thing. You can forget about hydrometer readings. AGM or Lithium are sealed systems. The battery monitor is your gas gauge for the batteries.

[Davydd]

You guys know a lot more than I do about how systems work or are suppose to work. That The Fit RV Video Reviewing Mzungu is worth watching. A lot in it was the latest development thinking by Advanced RV but they've learned from it and they are "advancing" so to speak. A lot you see there, but not all, will be in our RV. I don't know if you have touched on some of the things, especially in regard to lithium-ion batteries they were displaying at Advanced Fest last May. Outback inverters/chargers and Silverleaf seem to be a given right now.

I still don't understand all this business in regard to the second alternator. What takes place typically now? On my Great West Van I have it plugged into shore power almost all the time. I would assume then that my batteries would be fully charged? Then on the first day of any trip be it to Indianapolis (a lot) or going south through Iowa before stopping I would typically drive anywhere from 8 to 11 hours. If I hear you all right I am hearing that an alternator would overcharge my batteries. But that hasn't happened. So, how is that being achieved? I've been reading you saying there is no way to control this.

[booster]

Davyyd. I don't know how the GW is set up, so this is just a guess. You probably have a 3 step charger like a Progressive Dynamics, which should keep your batteries pretty full while plugged in, or other brand that could be better or worse. Maybe not 100%, but not really low. If the engine alternator is able to charge the batteries, then it is also going to put charge voltage (14.5v?) whenever you are driving, unless there is some sort of disconnect or 12v to 12v charge in the system. Most of the B's don't have either, but not sure on the GW. If GW used an isolator instead of a separator (one way charging) the diodes in it would drop the voltage about .7 volts to about 13.8v, which will save the batteries from overcharge to a large extent, but will also really limit how fast they recover while driving if they are low.

If that is the case on yours, you would be putting the charge voltage on the batteries during your long drive. MB may or may not reduce their hot voltage a bit, which would help. The high voltage is not a quick, fatal, thing for the batteries, more of an accelerated decline thing. Wet cells seem to do a bit better tha AGMs in this type of thing, but do use more water. AGMs can dry out. If you had a charger like the the Tripp-lite that was in our Roadtrek, you might have been starting out at only 60% charged, so at least part of the trip would be good thing. That is one of the bad things about getting shore charger that actually gets all the batteries 100% full. It makes it so driving and/or solar can overcharge easier and longer, if not allowed for. This what we are now addressing.

There are ways to control the driving overcharge. We have a manual switch to disconnect the charging, if we are full and driving a while. A 12v to 12v smart charger in the line would solve it.

Hopefully, the very spendy and sophisticated systems that will be on your Advanced will cover all the bases. I think pattonsr would be, by far the most knowledgeable on that.

[pattonsr]

Davydd. You have on your Great West Van just the Sprinter factory alternator with probably a two way separator between the engine battery and the house battery bank. I would think that a reasonable amount of juice is going to the house bank. The discussion is what happens when a second large alternator is added dedicated to a large house bank and how that might be implemented. I believe your new Advanced RV will have the additional power source in lieu of a propane generator hung underneath.

With 4 expensive Lithium batteries the charging logic should be clearly spelled out. What if you are fully charged starting out on a long drive. What happens when the second alternator goes to work on the 4 Lithium batteries while you are on the long drive? And what happens when something goes wrong. Your 9 year life for the Lithium bank could be over. In my case my wife would probably kill me when she found out the cost of replacement batteries.

I am not in the least worried about Advanced RV not doing a superb engineering job. I am sure they will break new ground in providing additional energy production without using a propane generator. I just want to fully understand how it works. At this point in time we are all just guessing at what Mike N. will come up with.

[booster]

pattonsr

The reading I did, particularly on the Outback site did put me up to speed on the wiring system you are talking about, no question there, boost etc. Maybe not as energy saving with inverter on all the time, along with all the control electronics, but understandable and operator easy.

The questions that remain for me, and maybe davyyd would be on the tech low end for Advanced and Outback, but on the high end of tech for nearly all other B's They probably will sound inanely simple, but I couldn't really find much on it. This is just for the Outback.

The shore charger doesn't appear to have the option of using ending amps to determine full charge. Absorption looks to be on timers or using or using the battery monitor data. From what I have seen with our Trimetric, the charge % is not very accurate. Discharge rate, and recharge rate and voltage greatly affect the accuracy. The AH are probably correct, but they come out at one voltage and go back in at a different voltage, so aren't the same watts. The Trimetric does not use Peukert, but can be put in watts, which doesn't seem to help. I can easily see 15% reading error for the state of charge, on the discharge side. On the recharge side, it is more consistent and correct, if the charge efficiency is set exactly right. Trimetric gets around being cumulative in their errors over charge cycles by doing a rest to 100% on the discharge cycle once a voltage threshold is met while discharging. How full the full it thinks it has seen makes this spot also fairly inaccurate, so the ending amps setting in the Trimetric are critical. What does Outback do with their monitor, or with the charger, to make it as accurate as a hydrometer, or ending amps? Go entirely by watts in and out, modified for Peukert and charge efficiency?

The Outback solar charger does appear to be able to be set to go to float based on ending amps, which is wonderful. Our Morningstar runs on time only and can put a full day of absorption voltage on full batteries. Does the Outback keep the solar connected all the time, or disconnect it when on shore power or other source? Or does the solar also work off the monitor data, in conjunction with the shore charger and engine charger, with no need for the ending amps?

Referring to davyyd's post above, how is the power from the alternator(s) handled? Does it go to the inverter and then to the shore charger as 110v to charge the batteries, or some other way to prevent overcharging on long drives with full batteries? Would the charging from the solar be messed up by the current from the engine or the other way around.

It is very interesting to me to try find out how the folks with all the resources handle this stuff, especially the interactions, to get clues how to handle it on more modest systems.

[Davydd]

My Great West Van has the Progressive Dynamics 9245 converter with built in intelligent charging.

Digging through my Advanced Fest photos they had this placard on display saying the auxiliary alternator has a custom 3 stage charge controller that is their standard for their RVs.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

My Great West Van has the Progressive Dynamics 9245 converter with built in intelligent charging.

Digging through my Advanced Fest photos they had this placard on display saying the auxiliary alternator has a custom 3 stage charge controller that is their standard for their RVs.

That answers that question. It would be interesting to see the charge profile, but no matter how they set it up, it is going to be way better than the fixed alternator voltage.