Advancing Alvar

[Davydd]

[QUOTE=booster;63919]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I am not speaking for the vast majority or AGM battery concerns. I'm speaking about what Advanced RV brings to this subject and my own practices and experiences. I would appreciate it if you stuck to that in this thread.

BTW, I have solved the last solar advantage for longterm storage. I own a heated garage with electricity and have a Trik-L-Start module to keep the chassis battery charged. Solar is not required obviously for that reason. /QUOTE]

When you fail to state something as opinion or personal preference, and do state it as if it is fact, don't be surprised if readers don't understand what you are saying. When stated as fact, and implied that it applies to all solar in this case, it is perfectly reasonable for folks, IMO, to either agree or disagree with the statements.

I would have say that you will probably find very few people that would disagree with the idea that the cure for outdoor storage with no power is to store indoors with power.

I have stated MY reasons for not needing solar. I conceded not needing solar that there was one item remaining and that is the advantage of longterm storage outdoors with solar. I just simply stated I solved that issue as well.

[Keyne]

Davydd (and others with large second alternators instead of traditionall generators) does your Sprinter have the adjustable idle? You mentioned you idled for 30 mins on your last trip. Is that a typical idle time for you or a max time? If you have the adjustable idle what RPMs do typically use? Our new Roadtrek surprisingly came with the factory adjustable idle (no one I have talked to with a RT has one and dealer had no idea what the switches were for...) but I haven’t used it much because I was wondering how long is too long... interested to hear real world experience.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Keyne

Davydd (and others with large second alternators instead of traditionall generators) does your Sprinter have the adjustable idle? You mentioned you idled for 30 mins on your last trip. Is that a typical idle time for you or a max time? If you have the adjustable idle what RPMs do typically use? Our new Roadtrek surprisingly came with the factory adjustable idle (no one I have talked to with a RT has one and dealer had no idea what the switches were for...) but I haven’t used it much because I was wondering how long is too long... interested to hear real world experience.

I have the fixed high-idle and it idles at about 1200 rpms Normal idle is below 800 rpms. High idle is only invoked with the Autogen on the Silverleaf or I can also autostart the engine with my key fob without inserting the key. And I can program it to autostart at any percentage of battery state of charge. Mercedes Benz recommendation is not over 2 hours idling without driving. I think Roadtrek limits you to 35 minutes on Voltstart. Advanced RV lets you program any runtime up to 2 hours or you can simply start and stop at will. Both Advanced RV and Roadtrek allows 5 autostarts and then you have to key start your engine. The Delco alternator in Advanced RV I know, because I tested it, can idle up to an hour without any heat drop off and produces about 220 amps at idle. The Nations alternator can't do that. Driving 50 miles per hour produced about 280 amps. It is regulated and drops amp input gradually down to 0 after 90% SOC and even if you continue to idle the batteries having topped off will accept no additional charge. I don't know if you can determine what idling is doing or producing in a Roadtrek other than your RPMs on the dash.

[Keyne]

Davydd, thanks for the info. I don't have Voltstart (didnt want the complexity/issues) so its a manual setup but it's interesting to know they limit to 35 mins. I think I will do that if I need to run it. We haven't needed to because we mostly plug into campgrounds up here in the North East this season, but if we want to try dry camping it would be good to know what to do. Also, the RPM setting is helpful; I will setup that setting and see how it goes. I was very happy to see my RT Sprinter came with the adjustable idle; very cool feature IMO to have that with the second alternator.

[Davydd]

We just came back from a 7 week, 49 night trip to the Pacific Northwest and we plugged in into shore power maybe 4 times even though we had electric service other times. We occasionally camp at private water and electric site campgrounds mainly to dump and do laundry and take a long leisurely hot shower. We only deliberately plugged in just once to test overnight our Rixen electric heat module and to turn on the electric radiant floor heat at the same time when it was predicted to get down to 18 deg. F. overnight.

What I didn't anticipate this trip was the amount of blocking to make sleeping comfortable. The mountains are notoriously unlevel in public campgrounds since mostly the were conceived a long time ago for tent campers and of course mountains are unlevel. The upper Midwest, southwest and south where campgounds are mostly level we probably had to block about 5% of the time with the VB Air Suspension leveling overcoming most natural drainage sloping. Also, by not plugging in we could back in our pull in to campsites not worrying about where the electrical post is.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Keyne

Davydd (and others with large second alternators instead of traditionall generators) does your Sprinter have the adjustable idle? You mentioned you idled for 30 mins on your last trip. Is that a typical idle time for you or a max time? If you have the adjustable idle what RPMs do typically use? Our new Roadtrek surprisingly came with the factory adjustable idle (no one I have talked to with a RT has one and dealer had no idea what the switches were for...) but I haven’t used it much because I was wondering how long is too long... interested to hear real world experience.

Mercedes offers two high idle options - fixed and adjustable. Roadtrek is now ordering their Sprinters with the fixed high idle option. While the higher engine rpm undoubtedly improves the output from the Nations alternator, the accompanying increase in engine noise and alternator whine is going to be met with frowns from nearby campsites.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

What I didn't anticipate this trip was the amount of blocking to make sleeping comfortable. The mountains are notoriously unlevel in public campgrounds since mostly the were conceived a long time ago for tent campers and of course mountains are unlevel. The upper Midwest, southwest and south where campgounds are mostly level we probably had to block about 5% of the time with the VB Air Suspension leveling overcoming most natural drainage sloping. Also, by not plugging in we could back in our pull in to campsites not worrying about where the electrical post is.

IMO, the noticeable increase in pitch in parking areas in the Northwest is a function of the heavy rain experienced there.

The biggest setback for hydraulic or electric levelers in a Class B was the introduction of the Sprinter platform because Mercedes prohibited any chassis modifications by upfitters. Even the HWH levelers which used clamps rather than drilling holes in the chassis were not approved. But things seem to be changing since they apparently have have no objection to the European E&P leveler system introduced by ARV recently. The Fit RV had ARV retrofit these levelers on their Promaster and they were delighted with them.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Keyne

Davydd (and others with large second alternators instead of traditionall generators) does your Sprinter have the adjustable idle? You mentioned you idled for 30 mins on your last trip. Is that a typical idle time for you or a max time? If you have the adjustable idle what RPMs do typically use? Our new Roadtrek surprisingly came with the factory adjustable idle (no one I have talked to with a RT has one and dealer had no idea what the switches were for...) but I haven’t used it much because I was wondering how long is too long... interested to hear real world experience.

I'm surprised that your high idle is adjustable. RT described it to me as a fixed high idle feature. Is there a low and high RPM limit on yours?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

IMO, the noticeable increase in pitch in parking areas in the Northwest is a function of the heavy rain experienced there.

The biggest setback for hydraulic or electric levelers in a Class B was the introduction of the Sprinter platform because Mercedes prohibited any chassis modifications by upfitters. Even the HWH levelers which used clamps rather than drilling holes in the chassis were not approved. But things seem to be changing since they apparently have have no objection to the European E&P leveler system introduced by ARV recently. The Fit RV had ARV retrofit these levelers on their Promaster and they were delighted with them.

The E&P levelers do not require any drilling of holes in the chassis or chassis modifications from what I understand.

Parking in the northwest outside of mountainous areas was pretty much level.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The E&P levelers do not require any drilling of holes in the chassis or chassis modifications from what I understand.

Parking in the northwest outside of mountainous areas was pretty much level.

Correct, the E&P levelers involve no chassis holes or mods. But neither do the domestic HWH levelers which can be installed by end users but are prohibited for upfitters by Mercedes, but the E&Ps have apparently been approved. They utilize positive pressure return rather than spring return and are straight plungers rather than kick down spring return units which can be a problem when they get stuck in mud.

IMO, the VB suspension and E & P levelers are a dynamite combination.

Where it seemed there was increased parking pitch in the Northwest was in the big shopping center parking lots.

[Keyne]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Mercedes offers two high idle options - fixed and adjustable. Roadtrek is now ordering their Sprinters with the fixed high idle option. While the higher engine rpm undoubtedly improves the output from the Nations alternator, the accompanying increase in engine noise and alternator whine is going to be met with frowns from nearby campsites.

It’s good they are ordering them with the idle settings now. Used ours this weekend for 30 mins and our AGMs were ready to go. Went from 12.44 to 12.97 and we ran the microwave while the engine was charging the batteries. The noise was noticeable of course but nowhere near as loud as a traditional generator and not really much different in a campground than the diesel pickups idling and driving around. Also, if noise is a problem just don’t use the high idle; at low RPMs the output is lower but the sound is very low IMO.

[Davydd]

I forgot what thread we discussed the Advanced RV Volta battery system and got to a discussion about heating batteries so I am putting this here.

https://advanced-rv.com/addendum-mar...m_medium=email

It explains more in detail why and how the trip got temporarily interrupted with lithium batteries getting down below freezing.

"When we left for Florida, thinking it would be a warm weather trip, we didn’t worry about not having installed the automatic battery heating system (an automatically controlled, low energy, resistance heated blanket inside the battery insulation). This heating system automatically maintains the batteries at a temperature high enough that battery life is maximized. Without the heating system, the battery temperature control failsafe kicks in. It will not allow the batteries to be used at below 32 deg F and it won’t allow the batteries to charge below 43 deg F. These are conservative settings that assure long battery life."

Alvar has the automatic battery heating system with two 5 amp resistant heating pads that they are talking about in the battery case controlled by Silverleaf to come on automatically. I've observed the heating never came on until about ambient temperature dropped to the low 20s and it was intermittent at that. I've said in the past our first week in Alvar was an extreme test in going from Cleveland to Minnesota and then three days getting to Arizona in January with the last day boondocking at a Cracker Barrel at 0F overnight. I don't think it got above freezing 24/7 that week boondocking all the way.

The battery heating pads in Alvar they forgot to install. How simple can it get?


The Silverleaf screen read out with every cell voltage and temperature status. The Heat button is armed via an indicator with green other wise it would be grey. It can be manually turned off. The little flame symbol indicates it is actually heating and that's how I can monitor when the heating pads are actually on.

[gregmchugh]

What is the AH capacity of the Volta system that ARV is installing?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

What is the AH capacity of the Volta system that ARV is installing?

I don't know off hand but assume it has at least 800ah capacity. They have a video explaining the system and it might be there.

[Mike]

Do the batteries heat themselves? What provides the 5A pads with their 5A?

btw, good to see you're still around.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I don't know off hand but assume it has at least 800ah capacity. They have a video explaining the system and it might be there.

Perhaps I'm mising something here, but I don't see the 48 Volt (Volta) charging system glued to 800ah of batteries accomplishing anything that the Delco 330A alternator already does other than reducing the duration of the charge cycle a little.To get any significant advantage with Volta, wouldn't you want to augment battery capacity way above 800ah?

BTW, the Volta installation in ARV's escape was presumably a pilot project. Do you know if they intend to implement it in current production?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Mike

Do the batteries heat themselves? What provides the 5A pads with their 5A?

btw, good to see you're still around.

Yes the batteries heat themselves. They are 12V heating pads so the batteries supply the power. The heating pads are standard with ARV. There is a potential drain of a total of 240ah drain (10 amps x 24 hrs) off the batteries in a 24 hour period if they remain on all the time. That can be replenished under an hour of driving and I think if you are camping in that kind of weather you might be driving every day for one reason or another. The Neundorfer's probably thought they would drive out the cold weather and got caught up in an unusual southern cold spell.

Plugged into shore power for storage your batteries will be topped off as the system is designed to cycle from fully charged 99% and then turn off charging and drop to 91%. I guess that is an arbitrary setting. I haven't asked or analyzed how they determined it. So, there will be ample reserve on an 800ah battery bank, 640ah usable since they will shut off at 80% DOD there is still about 330ah to 400ah capacity for other electrical needs and air conditioning isn't one of them. Batteries stay above 43 degrees as stated by ARV but I think mine are programmed to stay above 41 degrees. Autogen (engine idling), thus factors in hardly at all. That's similar to Voltstart for those familiar with Roadtrek literature.

If you are going to have lithium ion batteries in Minnesota you definitely need shore power of at least 15A if stored outside, and for that matter inside in a conditioned space. So the passive heating pads are the simplest option I think. Otherwise it was suggested in another thread that the Rixen Espar diesel system (which I have and am familiar with) providing heat to the battery box could do. That involves diesel ignition (electrical source) pumps (electrical source and movement failure) diesel depletion (manual attention and physical replenishment) and suggested smartphone control (manual attention, electrical source and wifi equipment connection at the van and of course a control system to coordinate all this). Did I say extra tubing? Most Rixen Espar systems are in the cab area and the batteries are mostly in the back for practical reasons.

If that electrical source comes from the chassis AGM Sprinter battery I can tell you it won't last much more than a month in Minnesota. You would have to have a Trik-L-Start charge connection coming from the coach batteries supplied by shore power (which I have). And of course, if that electrical source comes from shore power, what is simpler than 10a of passive heating pads?

My ARV manual says for winter storage there is two disconnects so the lithium ion batteries will lie dormant drawing no power and last through a winter. That's all well if you are in temperate winter temperatures like southern California, Arizona and Florida. You can utilize solar power in all this (I have 420w) but stored outside right now they would be buried under at least 8 inches of snow and would have so since the middle of January. And of course you would have no option other than storing outside

Mike, I apologize in going all off with your simple question, but now that I am in the thread I created, I took the opportunity.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Perhaps I'm mising something here, but I don't see the 48 Volt (Volta) charging system glued to 800ah of batteries accomplishing anything that the Delco 330A alternator already does other than reducing the duration of the charge cycle a little.To get any significant advantage with Volta, wouldn't you want to augment battery capacity way above 800ah?

BTW, the Volta installation in ARV's escape was presumably a pilot project. Do you know if they intend to implement it in current production?

I said I didn't know what the Volta battery ah capacity is but assumed at least 800ah. ARV has built a 1200ah battery with the older 12V system. I don't know much about the Volta system other than ARV stated it could charge batteries twice as fast and has greatly reduced wire sizes to accomplish it. I have a 4/0 wire from alternator to batteries and you can't get much more out of that than the Delco.

I agree if the 800ah capacity couldn't get you through a night without Autogen coming on then you probably would need more capacity. Escape was a pilot van. If 800ah maybe they wanted to assess the capabilities. They also have developed a more efficient air conditioner in that effort which I know little about other than their video. They already know 800ah and the Nations alternator doesn't cut it. The Delco alternator is vastly superior to the Nations and maybe it still doesn't answer the call. I'll never know because I will probably never need air conditioning to that extent in my intended travels. If they go ahead with it, it might just be an option for those that need it.

The Volta lithium ion batteries have different chemistries. I don't know if that is a part of it. Supposedly they can withstand lower temperatures which I would be interested in.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Yes the batteries heat themselves. They are 12V heating pads so the batteries supply the power. The heating pads are standard with ARV. There is a potential drain of a total of 240ah drain (10 amps x 24 hrs) off the batteries in a 24 hour period if they remain on all the time. That can be replenished under an hour of driving and I think if you are camping in that kind of weather you might be driving every day for one reason or another. The Neundorfer's probably thought they would drive out the cold weather and got caught up in an unusual southern cold spell.

Plugged into shore power for storage your batteries will be topped off as the system is designed to cycle from fully charged 99% and then turn off charging and drop to 91%. I guess that is an arbitrary setting. I haven't asked or analyzed how they determined it. So, there will be ample reserve on an 800ah battery bank, 640ah usable since they will shut off at 80% DOD there is still about 330ah to 400ah capacity for other electrical needs and air conditioning isn't one of them. Batteries stay above 43 degrees as stated by ARV but I think mine are programmed to stay above 41 degrees. Autogen (engine idling), thus factors in hardly at all. That's similar to Voltstart for those familiar with Roadtrek literature.

If you are going to have lithium ion batteries in Minnesota you definitely need shore power of at least 15A if stored outside, and for that matter inside in a conditioned space. So the passive heating pads are the simplest option I think. Otherwise it was suggested in another thread that the Rixen Espar diesel system (which I have and am familiar with) providing heat to the battery box could do. That involves diesel ignition (electrical source) pumps (electrical source and movement failure) diesel depletion (manual attention and physical replenishment) and suggested smartphone control (manual attention, electrical source and wifi equipment connection at the van and of course a control system to coordinate all this). Did I say extra tubing? Most Rixen Espar systems are in the cab area and the batteries are mostly in the back for practical reasons.

If that electrical source comes from the chassis AGM Sprinter battery I can tell you it won't last much more than a month in Minnesota. You would have to have a Trik-L-Start charge connection coming from the coach batteries supplied by shore power (which I have). And of course, if that electrical source comes from shore power, what is simpler than 10a of passive heating pads?

My ARV manual says for winter storage there is two disconnects so the lithium ion batteries will lie dormant drawing no power and last through a winter. That's all well if you are in temperate winter temperatures like southern California, Arizona and Florida. You can utilize solar power in all this (I have 420w) but stored outside right now they would be buried under at least 8 inches of snow and would have so since the middle of January. And of course you would have no option other than storing outside

Mike, I apologize in going all off with your simple question, but now that I am in the thread I created, I took the opportunity.

No need to apologize. It was an excellent answer, reasonably concise considering the complexity of the topic, and good insight into the inner workings of your electrical supply and replenishment system. And, it is your thread.
I will probably refer to it, in the event I upgrade my system, somewhere down the road. The new unit comes with LA batteries, and a couple of panels up top, and that already has me thinking about making some improvements.
Lithium may be the way to go eventually, but I'm going to have to try the existing system first, to see what works, and what might work better.

[booster]

The higher voltages are coming, as are the integrated systems of batteries/chargers/inverters/alternators, etc, and in reality it is way overdue IMO. There is truly no reason to have the coach at 12v anymore, especially since all the "smart" charging systems in the vehicles are getting so picky about using power from them. Essentially all of the engine generator/big alternator systems are now isolated from the vehicle electronics, so there is no reason for the coach to stay at 12v as there is no connection.

Up until the lithium batteries, there was a lot of resistance to going higher in voltage, I think, because with the lead acid systems all the systems were standalone and and not integrated, so there was little incentive to change anything except to add more batteries at 12v. Going higher in voltage would require adapting many systems to it, which to some extent is still true, but as long as you need to build a from scratch control system for the lithium, you might as well get the benefits of the higher voltage. The lithium is more expensive anyway, so less price pressure, and adding a 48-12v power converter to run hold over 12v stuff does't price them out like it would in a lead acid system.

At least while I was still working industrial factories until 2013, the safety rules for AC and DC started at 50v, so I wouldn't be surprised to see the 48v get to be pretty standard as it would take no real added wiring methods compared to the 12v.

I think the voltage increases will be one of the largest improvements in coach power that we will see, as there are very few downsides. All the different battery styles and such all have some worts and likely will be displaced in the somewhat near future, as will generators and other things, but voltage bump will stay and be great. I look forward to it, even though we likely would never implement in our van for practical reasons, but you never say never