Advancing Alvar

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

...

This is typical for us with fall and early spring trips. I question the value of solar (we have 420 watts) and definitely those Dometic roof top air conditioners. There has got to be a better solution for air conditioning for the rare times we use it. May can be problematic because of where we annually go (Indiana to Washington DC). In the summer it is mostly in the north woods of the upper Midwest near home and air conditioning is rarely needed. In 2012 we went to Alaska on an 11 week trip in the summer and never used air conditioning.

I'm looking long and hard about air conditioning and solar considering we can look at the roof real estate in a more creative way.

Yup... that's my feeling as well.

If I have a choice, which I have more often now than before, I would rather chase that illusive 70F than to fight the 90s.

Solar is helpful. But yes it is overrated; half an hour of driving is better than a full day's sun on a 200w panel.


While on the subject of going Mies... most people seldom use their Onan. It is not unusual to find 15 yrs old RV with 15 hrs on it.

People have these things, or demand these things, because the upfitters tell us we need them.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

I realize that your guru is not enthusiastic about this solution, but if you press him, he will be able to make it work. An ARV-class solution will very likely involve custom-made, weatherproof boxes for the exposed components with closable vents operated by electric linear actuators. Short of that, mounting the condenser parallel to the direction of vehicle travel is helpful.

The "guru's" decisions so far are based on actual testing. They have gotten in several systems so far and tested and investigated them all. They thought they had a DC system back before I took possession of Alvar but it did not work out and I got the Mach 8. Solar Womp, the van with specific use to go to Burning Man, got a hybrid system. The tested the split system to come up with their video not recommending it. I suspect Roadtrek may have come to the same conclusion since Mike Wendland traded in his split system beta unit for a more conventional CS.

I understand they now have a system under testing, and I believe if I heard right, from Australia. It is going to be either a different air conditioning solution than conventional or no air conditioning for me.

The 48 volt Volta electrical system (actual 56 volt) is under testing in one van now. I believe, with my schedule, they will have come to a conclusion and worked out any bugs by the time I build a new van. They pretty much determined with the fast charging more than double the Delco alternator that it is the only solution for 24/7 air conditioning off grid without the death spiral. But then if you don't have air conditioning the extra cost might not be beneficial as my existing electrical system is providing everything I need.

BTW, Advanced RV, is moving into a new facility 2.5 times the size of their existing facility this year. It is right down the street from their existing facility.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by avanti

I realize that your guru is not enthusiastic about this solution, but if you press him, he will be able to make it work. An ARV-class solution will very likely involve custom-made, weatherproof boxes for the exposed components with closable vents operated by electric linear actuators. Short of that, mounting the condenser parallel to the direction of vehicle travel is helpful.

I'm sure ARV will come up with something. I see that they are ducting overhead and that is nice.

One of the reasons I like gas engines is so I can idle with the AC or heat on. I have rear heat and AC from the dash system.

Since ARV is good at intigrating stuff with the chassis systems maybe they could add a second 110vac compressor in parallel with the engine compressor to use when plugged in. There are lots of AC compressors available and they are not too big or hard to mount. Then use the dash and rear heat fans, evaporators, etc.

Think KISS but make it work better at the same time.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BBQ

While on the subject of going Mies... most people seldom use their Onan. It is not unusual to find 15 yrs old RV with 15 hrs on it.

I believe Advanced RV has built just one van with a Onan generator and propane. They went to a second alternator solution back in 2013 shortly after forming the company. I seldom used my Onan with my two previous vans. It was mostly for so called mandatory exercising and brewing coffee. Never for air conditioning.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

I'm sure ARV will come up with something. I see that they are ducting overhead and that is nice.

That ducted system comes with the Super High roof model. I saw one at ARV Fest West in California last week from an owner in California. It was super nice and an 80" high ceiling to boot.

I think ARV is the only company to build on the Super High roof with the roof top air conditioner tucked in so it is no higher than the conventional high roof with air conditioner on top.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The "guru's" decisions so far are based on actual testing.

The test reported in the video was a straw man. Please read my entire post for a path forward (although I do not doubt that they will eventually get to something like that without my help). Any of the available systems can be made reliable. The innovation will lie in a proper enclosure.

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Yup... that's my feeling as well.

If I have a choice, which I have more often now than before, I would rather chase that illusive 70F than to fight the 90s.

Solar is helpful. But yes it is overrated; half an hour of driving is better than a full day's sun on a 200w panel.


While on the subject of going Mies... most people seldom use their Onan. It is not unusual to find 15 yrs old RV with 15 hrs on it.

People have these things, or demand these things, because the upfitters tell us we need them.

While I certainly agree with the temperature chasing range, and the lack of use for many folks on the Onan, I would certainly need to put a big modifier on the solar being useful, or not.

I would say that the solar is not very useful IF YOU HAVE A WELL DESIGNED LITHIUM BATTERY SYSTEM (and is not a Roadtrek) that is not stored outdoors. Of course you also need an engine generator of large capacity.

For the vast majority of the camping population that have AGM or wet cells, solar can be, and usually is, very important in keeping the batteries fully charged and longer lasting. The engine generator is not going to get them past 70-80% in any kind of short charging time, so the lower output over many hours of the solar is perfect for finishing the charging. Even this time of year there is enough sun for finishing a charge, and if you have a decent sized battery bank, solar bank, it doesn't have to be sunny every day.

For outdoor storage where there is no shore power available, solar is the go to for keeping the batteries charged and in good shape.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by avanti

The innovation will lie in a proper enclosure.

If they just add the second 110vac compressor they will not need an enclosure since they will be using the evaporator already there from the dash AC. The best reliability improvements come from eliminating parts.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

The space of possible A/C solutions is well trodden--very thorough threads are available on Sprinter Source, as you probably know. The answer is pretty clear: The best practical solution is a DC-powered split system, with both the compressor(s) and condenser mounted underneath, and a ducted evaporator mounted inside. Most likely, the best available compressor setup is a dual (or even triple) Danfoss unit.

The IndelB Arctic Plus is nice:

Stationary air conditioners for trucks - SW ARCTIC PLUS



Since you will probably be getting a higher-voltage DC electrical system, you should attend to the DC units designed for remote equipment bays.

I realize that your guru is not enthusiastic about this solution, but if you press him, he will be able to make it work. An ARV-class solution will very likely involve custom-made, weatherproof boxes for the exposed components with closable vents operated by electric linear actuators. Short of that, mounting the condenser parallel to the direction of vehicle travel is helpful.

At the Pomona RV show, a Pro Air under mount AC system was demonstrated to me. The interior noise was acceptable but the outside noise from the compressor approached the noise of an Onan generator. If the compressor noise from the Pro Air is typical for these systems, IMO, any site that has quiet hours would not allow these undermount AC units to operate during quiet periods.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

At the Pomona RV show, a Pro Air under mount AC system was demonstrated to me. The interior noise was acceptable but the outside noise from the compressor approached the noise of an Onan generator. If the compressor noise from the Pro Air is typical for these systems, IMO, any site that has quiet hours would not allow these undermount AC units to operate during quiet periods.

Those systems tend to be way over-sized (to my taste). I have no desire to make ice cubes in my cabin. If I ever get around to this project, I am going to stick with a small (probably 8K) system with only a single fan on the condenser. I may also experiment in a PCM-controlled variable-speed fan, so it isn't always running flat-out. Proper enclosure design will help, too.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

If they just add the second 110vac compressor they will not need an enclosure since they will be using the evaporator already there from the dash AC. The best reliability improvements come from eliminating parts.

Lots of people start down this path. I have yet to see anyone get to the finish line. Lots of tricky details. Plus, automotive A/C systems tend to have very high capacities (because there is plenty of power available when driving). This means noise and power. Finally, I would not consider a 120V solution--short periods of battery-operation are very valuable to us, and native DC systems are far more efficient under that scenario.

[GeorgeRa]

I am familiar with one of these, I think this was the RC one, it was quiet, fully integrated inside mount, unfortunately only for 240VAC. It takes cooling air from under the van but most likely without any debris. Perhaps Truma will bring them into NA. https://www.truma.com/int/en/product...omfort-rc.html

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

While I certainly agree with the temperature chasing range, and the lack of use for many folks on the Onan, I would certainly need to put a big modifier on the solar being useful, or not.

I would say that the solar is not very useful IF YOU HAVE A WELL DESIGNED LITHIUM BATTERY SYSTEM (and is not a Roadtrek) that is not stored outdoors. Of course you also need an engine generator of large capacity.

For the vast majority of the camping population that have AGM or wet cells, solar can be, and usually is, very important in keeping the batteries fully charged and longer lasting. The engine generator is not going to get them past 70-80% in any kind of short charging time, so the lower output over many hours of the solar is perfect for finishing the charging. Even this time of year there is enough sun for finishing a charge, and if you have a decent sized battery bank, solar bank, it doesn't have to be sunny every day.

For outdoor storage where there is no shore power available, solar is the go to for keeping the batteries charged and in good shape.

Agree.

It is easy to see the world through the prism of your own habits. Using a van as a travelling coach extending house accommodations for night stopovers versus going camping and staying in one place are 2 different worlds with different needs. In my world of camping we rarely staying anywhere for one night only so for us our solar system has high value. We need electric power for charging electronics, a fridge, Espar D2 and D5, and roof fan, red LED in the shower , for these needs solar is just perfect.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

Those systems tend to be way over-sized (to my taste). I have no desire to make ice cubes in my cabin. If I ever get around to this project, I am going to stick with a small (probably 8K) system with only a single fan on the condenser. I may also experiment in a PCM-controlled variable-speed fan, so it isn't always running flat-out. Proper enclosure design will help, too.

I can see the use of these undermount systems when:

1. You are dealing with extremely high temps where a 13.5k AC won't cut it.

2. Shaving six inches from the coach height permits getting the coach indoors.

[booster]

Of course it is not as elegant as the split systems, but if you want the roof clear, you could always just use the Dometic like so many class b's have in the past. Especially with a high roof, it would be quite out of the way.

I think it is the Jayco A frame trailer that uses a Dometic on the floor. They then have some simple ducting to take air in one side of the trailer and out another to eliminate the potential hot air looping. It is a pretty slick installation.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by avanti

Lots of people start down this path. I have yet to see anyone get to the finish line. Lots of tricky details.

Yes.. Lots of tricky details. Sounds like a job for ARV. Since they only build on MB that should limit the effort.

It could be 12 volt or 110vac. I think there is a bigger selections of 110 ac compressors. If 12 volt it would be running through the converter when plugged in. If 110vac it would be running through the inverter when not plugged in.

This idea has been bugging me for a while. With my Promaster I'm looking to hack the CAN bus to control some of the tricky stuff (like controlling the engine fan to quiet it down). I haven't gotten very far yet......

[thanasis]

Originally Posted by booster

...

For the vast majority of the camping population that have AGM or wet cells, solar can be, and usually is, very important in keeping the batteries fully charged and longer lasting. The engine generator is not going to get them past 70-80% in any kind of short charging time, so the lower output over many hours of the solar is perfect for finishing the charging. Even this time of year there is enough sun for finishing a charge, and if you have a decent sized battery bank, solar bank, it doesn't have to be sunny every day.

For outdoor storage where there is no shore power available, solar is the go to for keeping the batteries charged and in good shape.

I believe I belong to that "majority" and I couldn't agree more with your observation.
I have 2 AGM's one 250Ah charged by a 270W PV panel on the roof, and a 100Ah charged by the OEM alternator and, optionally ,by a portable flex 50w PV. This setup provides ample Amps for my modest electrical needs: compressor fridge, LED lights and USB charging.

[Davydd]

I am not speaking for the vast majority or AGM battery concerns. I'm speaking about what Advanced RV brings to this subject and my own practices and experiences. I would appreciate it if you stuck to that in this thread.

BTW, I have solved the last solar advantage for longterm storage. I own a heated garage with electricity and have a Trik-L-Start module to keep the chassis battery charged. Solar is not required obviously for that reason.

I am up in the air in regard to air conditioning but not accepting the traditional rooftop air conditioner such as the Dometic even if it is a ducted system like Advanced RV's Super High Sprinter with a 6'-8" clearance with a ducted system. Super High is not going to happen when I am only 5'-9" but I am not going to accept a lower ceiling than the 6'-3" I have currently.

[booster]

[QUOTE=Davydd;63913]I am not speaking for the vast majority or AGM battery concerns. I'm speaking about what Advanced RV brings to this subject and my own practices and experiences. I would appreciate it if you stuck to that in this thread.

BTW, I have solved the last solar advantage for longterm storage. I own a heated garage with electricity and have a Trik-L-Start module to keep the chassis battery charged. Solar is not required obviously for that reason. /QUOTE]

When you fail to state something as opinion or personal preference, and do state it as if it is fact, don't be surprised if readers don't understand what you are saying. When stated as fact, and implied that it applies to all solar in this case, it is perfectly reasonable for folks, IMO, to either agree or disagree with the statements.

I would have say that you will probably find very few people that would disagree with the idea that the cure for outdoor storage with no power is to store indoors with power.

[BBQ]

.

There is no need for anyone to feel offended.

Anything and everything ever said in a public forum is personal opinion.
There is no need to defend it.

This is not an academic exchange.
Nobody is asking for citations or references.

There are no brownie points for being popular.

If something is not agreeable, ignore it.