Advancing Alvar

[avanti]

Although I agree with DavyDD about keeping this "first world problem" in perspective, I will say this:

Originally Posted by Davydd

In the case of de-winterizing if you do choose cold storage, no one does it while it is still cold do they?

Actually, yes. I have done it before with our previous van. Moreover, having just completed a major effort to upgrade our Legend for 4-season use, I am looking forward to doing it in the future. Although my new setup is as yet untested, I expect to be able fire up the Espar, fill the fresh tank, and head off for a "no compromise" () dead-of-winter snowshoeing trip. In theory, at least, I will be able to use every system of the van, including the macerator and dump valves. When we get home, I will re-winterize and put the van back into deep freeze. (and please don't tell me I should use bottled water and flush with antifreeze. "No compromises", remember?)

I only mention this in this context to underscore that different people use their vans in very different modes. What is unthinkable for one owner is great sport for another. Systems need to be designed to accommodate as wide a range of usage patterns as practical, rather than shoehorning everybody into the same model.

[booster]

I guess I would think that the cold storage issue would be quite common. How many folks live in a town house where it is required to park in a common storage lot? No power there, and when you take it out it certainly won't fit in a typical townhouse garage with a 7 or 8' door. Nearly every mini storage has a lot full of RVs all winter, and much of the summer.

I wouldn't even consider a cold recovery extra heater redundant, as it serves a different purpose than the primary heater. It could be as simple as 110v heater on the outside of the battery box that you can have on when on shore power, like a water tank heater.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

gregmchugh,

Since the batteries are the lifeblood of an ARV sprinter, I would like a plan to keep the batteries above freezing if the primary heating doesn't work. It really doesn't matter what fails in the heating logic. What I do know is that everything fails given enough time..

I live in Austin, TX and if it freezes here it is usually just during the nighttime. One year it was like 24 degrees for two days. The local utility hit its all time electric consumption. And then the unthinkable. Several Texas electric generation plants failed since they froze due to inadequate insulation. So Austin instituted rolling blackouts which are supposed to be 5 minutes off and 55 minutes on.

My neighborhood instead got 55 minutes off and 5 minutes on. The weak link in a pool is the pump for keeping the water moving during a freeze. I never considered having basically no electricity during the night during freezing weather. I would have given my right arm for a whole house backup generator that night.

In twenty five years, it has happened only one time but I had no backup plan to prevent a pipe in the pool gunite from freezIng and cracking.

Each person gets to decide what level of risk they are willing to take. If you consider the risk of having a battery heater fail to be something you want to protect against with a backup strategy you should surely do that. No one else can decide things like that since it your personal decision what risks you are willing to take and which ones you want to protect against.

[Davydd]

Each battery cell (16 3.2v - 200ah) has a computer chip sensor that monitors their voltage and temperature. That information reports to I assume a controller that says when a battery cell reaches a certain temperature (41.1 degrees) the heating pad turns on and stays on until such time a higher (unknown by me) temperature is reached. It would thus cycle on and off depending on the temperatures. it appears in my observation just one cell has to reach the critical temperature which is nearly 10 degrees warmer than freezing for the heating pads to come on. Those battery computer chip sensors are key to many other things.

Barry, you point out something. If you need service on the lithium ion batteries you most certainly will have to go back to ARV. The whole assembly weighs over 400 lbs and is sealed tight. You would have to put it up on a lift and drop it with a jack. Then of course you would have to service it and that takes specific knowledge and computer diagnostics. Right now there is no dealer with that capability that I know of and ARV has no dealer network.

As for the rest it can be serviced by RV dealers. ARV will find your dealer, work directly with the dealer providing information or technical personnel assistance and pay the dealer. They have also sent out their technical people directly to you to troubleshoot.

I'll be honest. ARV's are not an off the shelf buy. They are rather complex but I am enjoying the benefits of that complexity. I would not trade it for any other B. You become intimately familiar with the whole staff on a first name basis from Mike Neundorfer on down. They make customer service the number 1 priority. In my observation of the other owners, many whom I have met, I think most get their dreams fulfilled. There are surprisingly a lot of second ARV buyers now in the queue. The continued technical and design advances, especially the 4x4 is luring them back. I get that lust feeling when I visit. My wife, the practical one, reins me in. Maybe if she sees their newly developed Roman shade design she originally wanted and didn't get...hmm...

The cost? I think by now everyone realizes they are not inexpensive. They are selling to a niche market segment and seem to have all they can handle.

[pattonsr]

My wife is holding out for wood shutters

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

I live in Austin, TX and if it freezes here it is usually just during the nighttime. One year it was like 24 degrees for two days. The local utility hit its all time electric consumption. And then the unthinkable. Several Texas electric generation plants failed since they froze due to inadequate insulation. So Austin instituted rolling blackouts which are supposed to be 5 minutes off and 55 minutes on.

I can confidently tell you that you would have absolutely no need for a backup heating system to raise a disconnected battery back up above freezing. Your batteries will never freeze under those conditions. You might not even need the primary heating pads because I doubt your batteries would drop below freezing if 24 degrees for a high over two days is your worst.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

Although I agree with DavyDD about keeping this "first world problem" in perspective, I will say this:



Actually, yes. I have done it before with our previous van. Moreover, having just completed a major effort to upgrade our Legend for 4-season use, I am looking forward to doing it in the future. Although my new setup is as yet untested, I expect to be able fire up the Espar, fill the fresh tank, and head off for a "no compromise" () dead-of-winter snowshoeing trip. In theory, at least, I will be able to use every system of the van, including the macerator and dump valves. When we get home, I will re-winterize and put the van back into deep freeze. (and please don't tell me I should use bottled water and flush with antifreeze. "No compromises", remember?)

I only mention this in this context to underscore that different people use their vans in very different modes. What is unthinkable for one owner is great sport for another. Systems need to be designed to accommodate as wide a range of usage patterns as practical, rather than shoehorning everybody into the same model.

There are always exceptions. It is just not common to de-winterize until safe, warm temperatures are reached.

I'm four season now. I left ARV last January with water in my fresh water tank and used my plumbing below freezing for a week including 5 degrees our first night in our B. The problem is where I live you'll not find an exterior water source to fill tanks when it is below freezing. At least not at my house.

Heck, if you want a no compromise snowshoeing trip join me at Mike Wendland's Winter Freezeout at Tahquamenon Falls this January 22-24. Last I heard there might be a good 20 RVs or so and not all of them are Etreks or Ecotreks or anything special. I imagine it will be cold and there will be lots of snow and I think the only state park in America with a brewpub restaurant. That's everything one could wish for.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

When I bought my house 25 years ago, the owner said it went to 4 degrees and there was a cracked pipe in the pool but it turned out it was the auto fill pipe so no biggie.

Overall I was merely commenting that things happen and one can travel to places like Yosemite in the winter even though one lives in Texas. So your comments make little sense to me. People buy Class Bs to travel anywhere, anytime.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Heck, if you want a no compromise snowshoeing trip join me at Mike Wendland's Winter Freezeout at Tahquamenon Falls this January 22-24. Last I heard there might be a good 20 RVs or so and not all of them are Etreks or Ecotreks or anything special. I imagine it will be cold and there will be lots of snow and I think the only state park in America with a brewpub restaurant. That's everything one could wish for.

Actually, that sounds like great fun. Unfortunately we have a prior commitment. Maybe another year...

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

Davydd,

When I bought my house 25 years ago, the owner said it went to 4 degrees and there was a cracked pipe in the pool but it turned out it was the auto fill pipe so no biggie.

Overall I was merely commenting that things happen and one can travel to places like Yosemite in the winter even though one lives in Texas. So your comments make little sense to me. People buy Class Bs to travel anywhere, anytime.

True, the mantra is people buy Class Bs to travel anywhere, anytime but I don't think they tout that as an advantage over other RVs for reasons of cold weather.

How can I make sense? Let me try again. I say if it went to 4 degrees in Austin you will still not have a problem. Keep in mind even if unplugged from shore power your batteries are going to be self-heated if necessary and you will never have a prolonged freeze that long. With an 800ah battery bank (640ah usable) you could theoretically go 46 hours before Autogen would even come on (say 600ah/13 amps/hr = 46 hrs) and that is assuming the battery pad heaters ran continuously which they won't. Say if ARV came up with an easy solution that wasn't as Rube Goldberg as has been proposed so far, how much would you be willing to pay for a considerably less than once in a blue moon or never occurrence? Think about it. ARV I don't think has delivered a B yet with a spare tire.

Yosemite? I'm not sure what temperatures you are talking about there but we are heading north the Michigan's UP for three days and it can easily get to -20 and I will be able to monitor my batteries to see if the heaters even come on or how much while the batteries are in intense use instead of sitting as they are now. I'm not armchair looking at this. I am out pushing the limits.

[avanti]

I guess I'm not seeing the "Rube Goldberg" aspect. To pick just one of the proposals on the table:

1) A small shore-powered heat pad controlled by a thermostat.
2) Set the stat just at the ARV-chosen safety cutoff temperature.

If the battery is cold but plugged in, the battery will be shut down, but the heater will be on. If the van is running normally, the battery will be warm and the heater will be off. If the van is unplugged, nothing happens.

Instructions to customer:
"When the van is cold, plug it in until it starts working."

No controls, no fuss.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

How much would I be willing to pay for a backup system? I think the extra heating pads either 120v or 12v would be around $500. When the cost of an ARV is over $200,000, cost saving arguments seem ridiculous to me.

Why don't you make your upcoming cold weather trip two weeks long. If during that time your battery heating pads stop working, I bet your backup plan is to drive home.

If I am in Yosemite Valley for Christmas, I do not want to leave. I want a simple backup plan to keep heating the batteries.

When hiking in extreme wilderness, I always carry a satellite emergency locator. I have never needed it, but you bet I would if I fell in a canyon and broke a leg.

Not carrying a spare tire is no big deal. Just call Coach Net.

[markopolo]

Roadtrek's added AGM might become the standard for lifepo4's setups in small RV's. I'm thinking separate setups joined when necessary. The AGM or AGM's could power the heating pads.

I haven't read all the recent posts so that might have been mentioned.

I'm so far behind on the posts that the first unread one that came up was:

Originally Posted by Jostalli

I don't know what to think about Technomadia's articles related to their LiFePO4 batteries. I don't see any real technical reporting so I can't take it too seriously. They aren't experts in the field. Just early adopters. None of the guys on cruisersforum.com reported 25% loss after 3.5 years. I don't recall reading anyone report a loss at all. Some of these boats have had the same packs for over 5 years.

Mar Azul Adventures mentioned that they had "perhaps a 20-25% decrease in total capacity" in a comment on their site October 15, 2015: https://marazuladventures.wordpress.com/about-us/

More info: https://marazuladventures.wordpress....-and-research/

I think Advanced RV can and will do whatever you want. You just might have to know what that is in advance when it comes to things like extreme cold weather operation etc. so that you can request it.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

Davydd,

How much would I be willing to pay for a backup system? I think the extra heating pads either 120v or 12v would be around $500. When the cost of an ARV is over $200,000, cost saving arguments seem ridiculous to me.

Why don't you make your upcoming cold weather trip two weeks long. If during that time your battery heating pads stop working, I bet your backup plan is to drive home.

If I am in Yosemite Valley for Christmas, I do not want to leave. I want a simple backup plan to keep heating the batteries.

When hiking in extreme wilderness, I always carry a satellite emergency locator. I have never needed it, but you bet I would if I fell in a canyon and broke a leg.

Not carrying a spare tire is no big deal. Just call Coach Net.

Barry,

Use some logic. First you were worried about Austin one in a hundred year event and now Yosemite. If you are out on the road and using your B the odds are your batteries will stay above freezing without your battery heating pads coming on in any temperatures I think you will be able to tolerate. What do you expect in Yosemite?

I just looked it up. The coldest month at Yosemite Valley at 4,000 ft. elevation is December. The maximum high is 47 degrees. The minimum low is 28 degrees. Even if there were a freak cold spell I doubt your batteries could ever drop below freezing and your electric heating pads would never come on. I know enough about how they work to say that confidently and that your Christmas trip is safe.

Next tell me you want to ship your Class B to Antarctica or drive to Alaska in December. I don't have an answer for you other than to say you're nuts.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

I never said I wanted to camp in Austin. I merely used a pool as an example of no backup plan.

Yosemite has much higher elevations to spend time at.

As for Alaska, my family spent several weeks in Anchorage and surroundings during many Christmas seasons. We actually went to the Zoo one time the day after Christmas. So I guess I am nuts.

I bet Mike N. will come up with a backup heating plan whether you like it or not.

[Davydd]

No, you didn't say camping but one might assume you would use your B in surrounding areas not much different in climate and you would store your B in Austin which seems to be the focus of criticism in regard to cold storage. I was responding to both.

Yosemite might have much higher elevations. So, are they open to RV camping and how different are they? Do I need to respond to that as well? You have to get down to a consistent day/night 0 degrees for me to be concerned and as I said I doubt you would want to tolerate that. I would consider that a Chicken Little nonsense concern or just another what if comeback. Half a brain would adjust to conditions. Or let's put it this way, there is no one with their current Bs that would try it. I'm getting tired of the what if or so comebacks.

Believe it or not, Anchorage and the Mat-Su Valley are warmer than Minneapolis. It is the driving to and from I was referring to and I was being facetious because everyone here seems to keep upping the criteria game whenever I respond. It seems I am the only one all in with my chips in the lithium ion game and everyone else kibitzes or folds. I'm suppose to agree with non-player, non-knowlegable opinions?

I can't answer for ARV whether they would or not, but my answer with what I know now is I would pay nothing for that option. It makes no difference whether I like it or not. I suppose if you asked they would do it and then shake their head at what customers ask for. I suspect they shook their heads at my wild ass request for articulating beds but they were willing to take on the challenge.

You know what I am thinking now? If I told you all I have to have the inverter on in order to operate the articulating beds at 120v when off grid you would all be chastising me for not having a 12v system or a back up. Never mind no one else has anything close to it. That seems to be the way it goes. How do I know? Because I have already been criticized numerous times for excessive electrical use. That's the way it goes around here.

I'll say it again. Get in the game or shut up, or at least quit looking at my cards.

OK, off my rant horse.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Roadtrek's added AGM might become the standard for lifepo4's setups in small RV's. I'm thinking separate setups joined when necessary. The AGM or AGM's could power the heating pads.

I haven't read all the recent posts so that might have been mentioned.

Marko,

If you haven't read this whole thread I'll leave you with the benefit of the doubt. But I will say this. The idea of having backup AGM batteries for LiFeP04 batteries is an asinine failure kludge and probably has no bearing on this thread. You better hope that does not become a standard.

However, we have covered this I think. An AGM battery could not possibly recover a frozen lithium ion battery bank. At least not mine. If you had that much power you would not need the lithium ion batteries. But then on the other hand it would take 13 12v 100ah AGM batteries or their equivalents to equal my setup. That is impossible or impractical at best in a Class B.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

An AGM battery could not possibly recover a frozen lithium ion battery bank. At least not mine. If you had that much power you would not need the lithium ion batteries.

Just a reminder (from message #884): 10 amps for 6.7 hours is 67 a/h. "could not possibly..." is an exaggeration.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

Have a stiff drink. You are starting to sound like Donald Trump tossing out insults..

[booster]

Davydd, just reread post #893. You sound exactly like what you always criticize.

Real world example at my house. If I had your ARV, it would not fit in the heated garage so I couldn't keep the batteries warm. I also wouldn't want it in the driveway all the time in the way of the snow clearing, etc. I also hate having cords draped through the snow all the time to get chewed up in the snow blower. Great, get lithium so you don't have to have them on charge all winter because of the low self discharge rate. Oh, wait, you still need to keep it plugged in all the time if you don't want to wait for warm weather to thaw it out, or beg someone to park it inside for you.

Not leaving it in the driveway and no cord are things I want, you obviously think otherwise. They are my choice of things not to compromise. Should I now go on a tirade about how silly and and unintelligent you are to accept them?

Personally, there is no way I would ever consider that having to put a heater on the ground under a $200K van to thaw the batteries could be considered an OK procedure. That is a Rube Goldberg.

Sideline, the no power when in battery shutoff was said to be no different a compromise than being winterized. I would only agree with that if it is possible to carry a jug of electricity to use to run the heat and lights when needed, like you can with water for it's purposes.