Advancing Alvar

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

I have spoken with Mike the owner of Advanced. He has worked with Mercedes and knows the limits of engine idle and MB has approved his concept. I would not worry one bit about limp-home, etc. If I could have afforded it, we'd be owning an Advanced instead of an Airstream Intestate. And yes, I'd much prefer to NOT have a propane tank, a noisy propane heater, a noisy vibration generator replaced by QUIET provided by an inverter and an occasional running of the MB engine way up front. Not to mention the safety issue of tunnels in the eastern US where NO propane is allowed or having to stop and turn off the propane tank.

sportsmobile could have made it like you wanted

however-there are times that you need a generator if you don't have a plug in site-mostly for AC.

in my case the wife and the cats would make my life miserable if they were miserable.you know 'a happy wife' yada yada

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

What you are missing is what I had just said - 13.9 hours. Clue. I don't use the generator. I abhor it. And if I desire to spend more time off grid camping it would be in places where generators were not allowed or desired. The hot water and heating off the diesel, elimination of a propane cooktop and going to a compressor refrigerator basically eliminates all need for propane except for a generator. I could continue my current habits with two conventional batteries if I desired. I desire to expand my off-grid capabilities but not with a generator.

Everyone seems to agonize over this running the M-B diesel more for M-B protection than the users/owners convenience. The M-B rep was in the room when all the idol options were discussed. They don't void the warranties. Think about it. M-B offers the high idol option and for what? They didn't object but admittedly did not endorse. Obviously, they have nothing to gain by endorsing.

While camping I don't recall ever running our generator more than enough time to brew a pot of coffee. I was buying into that 2 hour exercise crapola initially until I researched and discovered it was aimed at gasoline generators and gummy carbs. I know I'll be told not so on that for this and that but 9 years experience tells me different now. My two generators owned have never failed to start and I did out of curiosity test it last winter when it was below 0 F. and it started right up. At home in the driveway is where I put most of those 13.9 hours on the current generator for that so called exercising. Usually once I started it I let it run there and turned everything else on for testing often just before a trip. So in essence it is now something I don't feel I need especially if I add additional batteries and solar. Cheaper? I don't know. But how many people have generators, propane, extra batteries and solar? So I guess cheaper if you get rid of the generator and propane tank and opt for more storage and less weight.

davydd you are100 percent correct about propane generators. although you do need to make sure they have oil they do not need all that other stuff done with gas generators.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

my criticism is that there are far fewer MB sprinter dealers/repairers then the big 3 in USA.

Gerry,

That's a broken record quote. I suppose I could repeat my broken record response. If it came from a Class B Sprinter owner maybe I would listen, but I have resolved all my contingencies on this and put my money where my mouth is and executed my confidence by example driving to Alaska and back. Maybe your other worry ninnie compatriots might be willing to believe. Not saying problems could not happen, but if you are driving on a pothole filled road outside Chicken, Alaska you aren't going to find a Ford or Chevy dealer either. I've enjoyed life traveling in a Class B Sprinter for 9 years. I like my odds.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

I have spoken with Mike the owner of Advanced. He has worked with Mercedes and knows the limits of engine idle and MB has approved his concept.

I'm sure that's true, depending on what you mean by "MB has approved". But, good luck with that if you ever find yourself in a warranty dispute. Speaking from experience in an analogous (and even simpler) situation. (I'm not saying you will have such a problem--I agree with Davy that the high-idle option is there for a reason. I am just saying that the kind of "MB approval" we are talking about is pretty much worthless).

And yes, I'd much prefer to NOT have a propane tank, a noisy propane heater, a noisy vibration generator replaced by QUIET provided by an inverter and an occasional running of the MB engine way up front. Not to mention the safety issue of tunnels in the eastern US where NO propane is allowed or having to stop and turn off the propane tank.

Nobody disagrees about eliminating propane for heat or refrigeration. Any manufacturer who has not switched to diesel heat/hot-water and compressor refrigerators should probably be crossed off of anybody's list. This whole discussion, IMO, centers around air conditioning. (OK, Davy adds coffee, but it seems to me that any modern batter/inverter setup can handle that, unless you have a serious caffeine addiction. ) If you don't use AC, then I don't think that you need either propane or an exotic electric setup.

As for tunnels, there is only a very small handful of tunnels that actually prohibit propane. In a modern setup, turning off the propane take involves flipping a switch inside the vehicle (which many would argue should have been off anyway).

[Davydd]

We are at the RV.net B11 Rally right now and right in front of me is an older model Sprinter with a diesel generator. It is FredA's DIY Class B. However, Fred said after he bought his and installed it the manufacturer changed the design and made it deeper and thus impractical today to repeat his effort. Anyone know of a diesel generator that will fit under a Sprinter? I kind of doubt there is or I imagine the converters would be testing that setup now that diesel hot water and heat are becoming common.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

We are at the RV.net B11 Rally right now and right in front of me is an older model Sprinter with a diesel generator. It is FredA's DIY Class B. However, Fred said after he bought his and installed it the manufacturer changed the design and made it deeper and thus impractical today to repeat his effort. Anyone know of a diesel generator that will fit under a Sprinter? I kind of doubt there is or I imagine the converters would be testing that setup now that diesel hot water and heat are becoming common.

sportsmobile says powertech 3.0

although i looked at actual purchasable options for sprinter and diesel generator no longer listed. it is possible there is no diesel generator now available.they only list propane generator for diesel sprinter.

[booster]

A lot of this has been gone over and over for years now. Some is opinion only, but some has some, or more, merit IMO.

IMO

Propane is an option that isn't required anymore, but is still something that many would want for things like cooking. Not needed for frig or heat anymore in a diesel. The tunnel thing is pretty minor, and if you aren't using it for frig or heat, no reason the have it on when driving. Tanks could be much smaller and for outdoor cooking primarily.

Generator has also gotten to not be a required option, if you can live off grid without air conditioning. It all depends on where you camp and if you have pets, I think.

Repair locations can go either way. We have heard of Sprinter issues with failures and long distances for service, and we have heard of no problem folks. Luck of the draw. Less likely to be far away from service with a domestic, but certainly not guaranteed either. Mostly minor issue, with the possible exception that some of the Sprinter Bs are now getting old and more likely to have an issue.

The idling question is the one IMO that is the most unanswered. We have heard, from MB, that they can be idled only 30 minutes, an hour, two hours, now 3 hours, before needing to be driven. Originally, IIRC, the drive time was 20 minutes at highway speed, then 30 minutes, now 40 minutes. The high idle benefit, or not, was not mentioned in the Advanced RV discussions, but previously MB had stated that the fast idle would not change the maximum idle time rules, and folks on the Sprinter forums talk of needing something like 2000 rpm to do any good (louder than an Onan, most likely). The manufacturers claims are way different from the MB rules, and if I read correctly, even Advanced (who seem to be way more up front than the others) doesn't say you need to stay within the MB rules. There are many discussions about DPF and EGR plugging on the Sprinter forums (so we know it can happen), but the Bs haven't had any plugging yet, that I have heard about. The reason may well be that the engine generators are very recent, so there aren't enough of them in use to show problems yet. For me, if I wanted AC, I would get a generator. If not, I would stay within the MB idling rules and have an engine generator. I would not count on high idle having a positive deterrence effect on DPF or EGR plugging.

Will MB deny warranty if they think/know it has been idled beyond their rules? I don't think anybody knows that, but I am sure we will find out in a while. If they do deny claims, it will get very ugly between the customer, MB, and the RV manufacturer I would think.

[stanw909]

If you can walk away from your little house on wheels with all your belongings and beloved kitty cat with the keys in it and the engine running then you are a better man than me Gunga Din. If you can get your wife to go along with the concept then you are a god.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by stanw909

If you can walk away from your little house on wheels with all your belongings and beloved kitty cat with the keys in it and the engine running then you are a better man than me Gunga Din. If you can get your wife to go along with the concept then you are a god.

I can't imagine my wife agreeing to leaving the engine running. Under any circumstances. However i once left the engine running on a rental car and locked the doors. Not a happy wife.

I did this in a parking lot at walt disney world years ago. Imagine my suprise when after only a couple minutes a small golf cart with disney employee came with device to open the door. he said they wer constantly driving the lots because people did things like this'all the time'. i didn't feel so bad.

the cars of today-at least mine-won't let me leave and lock doors with engine running.

Who knew.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by booster

A lot of this has been gone over and over for years now. Some is opinion only, but some has some, or more, merit IMO.

IMO

Propane is an option that isn't required anymore, but is still something that many would want for things like cooking. Not needed for frig or heat anymore in a diesel. The tunnel thing is pretty minor, and if you aren't using it for frig or heat, no reason the have it on when driving. Tanks could be much smaller and for outdoor cooking primarily.

Generator has also gotten to not be a required option, if you can live off grid without air conditioning. It all depends on where you camp and if you have pets, I think.

Repair locations can go either way. We have heard of Sprinter issues with failures and long distances for service, and we have heard of no problem folks. Luck of the draw. Less likely to be far away from service with a domestic, but certainly not guaranteed either. Mostly minor issue, with the possible exception that some of the Sprinter Bs are now getting old and more likely to have an issue.

The idling question is the one IMO that is the most unanswered. We have heard, from MB, that they can be idled only 30 minutes, an hour, two hours, now 3 hours, before needing to be driven. Originally, IIRC, the drive time was 20 minutes at highway speed, then 30 minutes, now 40 minutes. The high idle benefit, or not, was not mentioned in the Advanced RV discussions, but previously MB had stated that the fast idle would not change the maximum idle time rules, and folks on the Sprinter forums talk of needing something like 2000 rpm to do any good (louder than an Onan, most likely). The manufacturers claims are way different from the MB rules, and if I read correctly, even Advanced (who seem to be way more up front than the others) doesn't say you need to stay within the MB rules. There are many discussions about DPF and EGR plugging on the Sprinter forums (so we know it can happen), but the Bs haven't had any plugging yet, that I have heard about. The reason may well be that the engine generators are very recent, so there aren't enough of them in use to show problems yet. For me, if I wanted AC, I would get a generator. If not, I would stay within the MB idling rules and have an engine generator. I would not count on high idle having a positive deterrence effect on DPF or EGR plugging.

Will MB deny warranty if they think/know it has been idled beyond their rules? I don't think anybody knows that, but I am sure we will find out in a while. If they do deny claims, it will get very ugly between the customer, MB, and the RV manufacturer I would think.

The chassis is warranted by MB, and they have recommended limits for things that might fail if exceeded. They set the rules based on their engineering experience and field testing, I would think.
If there is a chassis problem under warranty, that has been determined to have been caused by idling in excess of those recommended limits, MB probably denies the claim, and the owner takes the hit. If the owner says to MB, "my conversion company told me it wouldn't cause a problem to idle beyond your recommended limits", the claim is still denied, and it then either becomes a battle between the manufacturer and MB, over who said what, and also probably the owner and the conversion company. Yes, I could see it getting ugly, even though it should be pretty straight forward. I think you have to directly ask them and defer to what MB says is the limit, over whatever the converter or anyone else might suggest or imply. Someone said MB didn't dispute the converter's idling suggestion, but didn't endorse or support it either.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Mike

If there is a chassis problem under warranty, that has been determined to have been caused by idling in excess of those recommended limits, MB probably denies the claim, and the owner takes the hit. If the owner says to MB, "my conversion company told me it wouldn't cause a problem to idle beyond your recommended limits", the claim is still denied, and it then either becomes a battle between the manufacturer and MB, over who said what, and also probably the owner and the conversion company. Yes, I could see it getting ugly, even though it should be pretty straight forward. I think you have to directly ask them and defer to what MB says is the limit, over whatever the converter or anyone else might suggest or imply. Someone said MB didn't dispute the converter's idling suggestion, but didn't endorse or support it either.

That is putting it mildly. In practice, if there is any gray area at all then both sides will jump at the opportunity to pass the buck. You will get nothing but finger pointing. Been there. If you imagine that representatives of MB and your upfitter will get together for a rational conversation, you are deluded. You, the consumer, will be stuck firmly in the middle, supported by no one except any attorney whom you may chose to pay out of your own pocket. And, no, "Mercedes approved upfitter" status won't help much either.

As for "directly asking" MB, unless you can get a written position by someone with signing authority for the corporation on such matters (and you won't), that won't help much either.

N.B.: I am not picking on MB or Advanced-RV or anyone else in particular. This is just the way the world works. Caveat Emptor.

[gerrym51]

In any modern diesel inthe dpf era-a lot of idling is not a good thing-this is for 'all' diesels not just sprinters.

[Caped Crusader]

Propane generators do require exercising. Water forms inside the engine, and heat is the only way to get rid of it. If you don't exercise a propane generator, rust is probably forming on the windings, bearings, and other areas. The carb cleaning is only one reason for doing the monthly exercising on a gas gen-set. Just because the generator starts doesn't mean damage isn't being done to the internal parts, shortening the life of the propane generator. I owned a PW with a gas generator, but have read enough to understand the need to exercise both types.

[Mike]

If an internet forum thread receives over 70 individual replies, totaling 7 pages worth, in the 6 days since it started, does that mean that it's "gone viral"?

[Davydd]

Viral? No. Just a lot of over thinking.

[Fastpaddler1]

Not necessarily. It might mean that those 70 plus responders have become curious, then engaged, then obliged to offer supportive statements, contrary assessments or just add their two cents to be included in our friendly give and takings...or something like that.

We all REALLY would like a new RV like Davydd is planning--but most of us haven't got either the nerve to spend that much or, the wherewithall to get it!!!

[Belzar]

Davydd - Please keep us posted on Alvar’s progress. I’m also purchasing a Class B soon and it sounds like our desires are similar. I too detest generators and don’t anticipate needing all-night AC too often when not plugged in. I also don’t’ want the hassle of maintaining a second internal combustion engine. Even if staying in a single location for a few days, we usually will be driving some during the day to trailheads, shopping, exploring etc. – that’s why we are choosing a Class B in the first place vs an A or C. With an engine-mounted generator and solar we should have no trouble keeping a battery bank charged sufficient for our needs. I typically avoid being an early adopter. (It is called Phase 4 testing in the Pharma world and see how many drugs get recalled). But, the new MB chassis is now a year old and the non-propane systems have enough real world testing to get most of the kinks out. Curious what the upcharge is for lithium vs AGM. Lithium should be coming down in price significantly over the next few years since there a some mega-factories coming online. I'll probably look to lithium as a post-purchase upgrade a few years down the road. I’ll be interested in hearing some of the practical customization you are doing with your ARV. Are you putting in any extra cold weather capability? Customized storage in the rear? I love the idea of being able to choose the finishes. Are you going full Scandinavian in your rig – oiled teak finishes…maybe a slate topped counter (not real practical)? I get to Cleveland regularly and plan to visit with them, but not sure my personal aesthetic senses make it worth the extra costs vs an off-the -shelf etrek-type from another manufacturer. The RT CS is a pretty sweet rig in standard configuration. Good luck with your design and build.

[booster]

There is a bit of discussion on RV.net concerning biodiesel and warranties. Looks similar to some of the issues that were about ethanol in the past. Could get spendy for the customers if true. Did they say anything about it with the discussions at Advanced RV?

http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2012/...your-warranty/

[Mike]

As usual, government "good will" decrees to fix one thing, have unintended negative consequences for other things. It's part of the cause and effect cycle of big government. Keeps the bureaucrats busy when each new piece of damage they introduce, leads to a new project to fix the collateral damage from the last "fix". The next fix will be to insist the diesel engine makers adjust to their new fuel mixture requirements, adding billions to the cost of the re-engineered engines. Which will be passed on to the consumer. And so it goes......

[Rok]

Congrats Davydd!

More info please!

Did you order the top of the line Sprinter with all the bells and whistles? That would be my choice. When we got our rig, some of the controls from the steering wheel didn't work with the radio and other accessories very well. Everything that was installed by MB worked excellent, so I've always wondered how good their sound system, gps, and etc. would work together if factory installed. I bet the units they use would be choice.

When we took our rig in to get the alarm put in, they couldn't hook up everything because the MB "interface" unit was too expensive. It cost more than the entire installation of the alarm system altogether. They used some third party interface and now some of our buttons on the steering wheel work, but everything doesn't work like it should because of the MB module is better.

I'm a bit envious of your new toy. Still, I hope it all turns out perfect for you.

.......Rocky