Advancing Alvar

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The capabilities of our Bs do drive our camping and touring habits. I almost abhor the expense of a full hookup private campground now. I use to see them as a periodic luxury stop. I have gone from using the Allstays Camp & RV smartphone app to using only the Ultimate US Public Campground Project app to initially search out our overnight stays.

I completely agree. After looking at all of the commercial B options I learned that I wouldn't be satisfied with any of them. RV's worldwide are made for RV Parks or ~2 days dry camping. Hopefully more of the big brands will begin to copy Advanced RV and at least offer option packages that suit the grid avoidance crowd.

[obgraham]

You might have mentioned it, but what about the operating temperatures in that LiIon battery bank? That's what got Boeing into trouble, and a fancy enclosure is not going to be the answer if the batteries operate hot.

Have you a way of monitoring that?

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

AM Solar is now selling a Lithium package using Elite and their BMS boards. I saw a nice installation in an Airstream under a couch with the batteries next to a new Magnum Hybrid 3000w inverter/charger.

Wouldn't that eliminate the too cold and too hot problems and save a lot of weight by eliminating the steel cage, etc.

Advanced RV puts the inverter/charger under the twin bed. Why couldn't the batteries go next to it? It is very possible there isn't room.

If it was possible then Advanced RV could possibly provide a larger fresh water tank with the freed up room underneath the Sprinter.

AM Solar warns that the BMS boards do not like heat so an inside installation is preferred.

Barry

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

Davydd,

AM Solar is now selling a Lithium package using Elite and their BMS boards. I saw a nice installation in an Airstream under a couch with the batteries next to a new Magnum Hybrid 3000w inverter/charger.

Wouldn't that eliminate the too cold and too hot problems and save a lot of weight by eliminating the steel cage, etc.

Cold yes, when using your B, but hot no, IMO. Most people routinely let their Bs get super hot inside when they are not around and have it locked up. I am guessing inside a B will heat up much more than the box underneath. You would still need cold safeguards if you want to use your B periodically in the winter.

The steel cage might be safety overkill as designed but it certainly is necessary to some extent just to hold 228 lbs of batteries.

Advanced RV puts the inverter/charger under the twin bed. Why couldn't the batteries go next to it? It is very possible there isn't room.

There is plenty of space for batteries in an Advanced RV. The take away is design limitations with what you can do with your space and the obvious loss of storage. The inverter/charger limits what you can do in that space already, IMO.

If it was possible then Advanced RV could possibly provide a larger fresh water tank with the freed up room underneath the Sprinter.

AM Solar warns that the BMS boards do not like heat so an inside installation is preferred.

Barry

The Advanced RV already provides an industry leading 40 gallon fresh water tank for Bs. I suspect weight starts to come into play. Probably a better use would be put the spare tire back in the B for those that would like one. Saying all this, if one desired their batteries inside I would think Advanced RV could and would do it. Given what I said about enclosed Bs super heating up when closed up and unattended, I am not sure if AM Solar thought it all through. Technomadia's batteries were inside and I am guessing had they been under the bus they would not have gotten as hot. Inside is assuming you are conditioning your space 24/7. That might be true with a full timer but not with most B owners.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by obgraham

You might have mentioned it, but what about the operating temperatures in that LiIon battery bank? That's what got Boeing into trouble, and a fancy enclosure is not going to be the answer if the batteries operate hot.

Have you a way of monitoring that?

Each battery cell (16 in all) is monitored and reported on the Silverleaf touch screen. The batteries are 200ah 3.2V cells. Here is an example I just took. The outside temperature is 85F.



As you can see each cell is monitored and reported. The maximum battery temperature is 80F. The B right now is shut down, not plugged into shore power and not being used. Still there is a 6 amp draw down going on which means even in mostly shade the solar charging contribution is still working a little bit.

I was actually surprised the battery cell temperatures were lower than the air temperature. It could be with a much cooler morning the batteries under the B are not heating up as fast as the daytime temperatures. If they were inside the van I am sure they would have been warmer as the van is warmer than outside right now even with all my window vents and MaxxAir vent open.

[Jostalli]

I'm definitely putting my LiFePO4 batteries inside. That's why you properly insulate the van so you don't have wild temperature swings.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

I completely agree. After looking at all of the commercial B options I learned that I wouldn't be satisfied with any of them. RV's worldwide are made for RV Parks or ~2 days dry camping. Hopefully more of the big brands will begin to copy Advanced RV and at least offer option packages that suit the grid avoidance crowd.

Jostalli,

You sum it up fairly accurately. Mike Neundorfer, the owner of Advanced RV, is an active Type B RVer and he looks at it differently. He is driving the off-grid concepts. But Advanced RV probably is not going to be the driving force. That will be Roadtrek in my estimation. They've made advances with the ETrek concepts and if they can successfully enter the lithium ion arena they will be the ones to force Winnebago, Airstream, Pleasure-way, etc. to get off their complacent duffs and start developing because they are direct competitors in the dealer market place. So maybe the dealers will cry every time they lose a sale to a Roadtrek ETrek for that very reason.

I think it is coming, and because Type Bs are more tourers and able to go more remote than the other motorhomes, I think they will have an advantage to self-sustainment off grid camping.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

Very good comments. You did say Technomadia's batteries were inside but I believe they were in an outside compartment which could be exposed to the sun. I agree under the Sprinter would always be in the shade.

Barry

[booster]

I think it would be very interesting to see what the temperature was around the battery box area on a number of different vans and locations. I think folks might be surprised how hot it can get when you have pavement at 100+ degrees, engine air at 150+, exhaust running at 200-800 degrees, differential (usually right in front of the batteries running 150-200 degrees. I don't recall what temp they said problems start, maybe 120*? I think that would be very common.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by obgraham

You might have mentioned it, but what about the operating temperatures in that LiIon battery bank? That's what got Boeing into trouble, and a fancy enclosure is not going to be the answer if the batteries operate hot.

Have you a way of monitoring that?

the type of lithium batteries that Boeing used are no longer made they are a different ion.

David uses lithium ferrous phosphate. very stable it what most lithium battery makers use now

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

I think it would be very interesting to see what the temperature was around the battery box area on a number of different vans and locations. I think folks might be surprised how hot it can get when you have pavement at 100+ degrees, engine air at 150+, exhaust running at 200-800 degrees, differential (usually right in front of the batteries running 150-200 degrees. I don't recall what temp they said problems start, maybe 120*? I think that would be very common.

Booster,

All those temperatures are of interest. I did question the exhaust pipe that runs next to the battery bank. Advanced RV feels confident about what they have done so far. Maybe it will change. The box is an insulated box so does negate a lot of short term effects I believe. The battery temp image I just posted today does kind of confirm the stability at least in a parked situation where all those components are not producing heat. On the road I have monitored carefully since I have an instant real time readout and haven't observed the temperatures rising much more than 10 degrees over ambient. With the box being outside I wonder what the "wind chill" effect is driving at 65 mph.

On our next trip I am going to set up my old iPhone 4S (I hope) to use the RVCair app that mirrors the Silverleaf screen information and see how the performance is while driving down the road. I didn't trade in my old iPhone and I hope I now have a use for it that is worth the trade in cost.

I think there is still a lot of unknowns about high temperatures. The claim is lithium ion is good up to 149F. Most of Technomadia's summations are really still suppositions but valid. I haven't taken the time to read those lengthy discussions the yachting people have been having that Technomadia cites.

Technomadia did make one point about generational differences. They didn't have individual computer monitoring chips on each cell as I have and so really never knew in those 3-1/2 years what was going on. I have had some issues with my batteries as I was the real life many miles beta tester for them as it turns out but it appears after our last 5 week trip we got everything sorted out.

BTW, come up to Grand Marais on Labor Day for a BEE Social and we can compare notes.

[Davydd]

For the first time I tried the Autogen charging while plugged into shore power. Normally the alternator at high idle charges around 200 amps and shore power at 110 amps. Combined it was showing a charge rate of 320 amps going into the batteries. Since it was raining there was little or no solar contribution. I was told all three could charge simultaneously and I wanted to try it.

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by Davydd

For the first time I tried the Autogen charging while plugged into shore power. Normally the alternator at high idle charges around 200 amps and shore power at 110 amps. Combined it was showing a charge rate of 320 amps going into the batteries. Since it was raining there was little or no solar contribution. I was told all three could charge simultaneously and I wanted to try it.

How does shore power deliver 110 amps? Usually the only options are 30 or 50.

[pattonsr]

Jostalli,

Advanced RV uses the Outback VFX2812 2800 watt inverter/charger which is rated to charge at 125 DC amps. I am not sure what the AC amp draw is. As another example the Magnum Hybrid 3000 watt inverter/charger draws 18 AC amps while producing 125 DC amps.

Barry

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

Jostalli,

Advanced RV uses the Outback VFX2812 inverter/charger which is rated to charge at 125 DC amps. I am not sure what the AC amp draw is. As another example the Magnum Hybrid 3000 inverter/charger draws 18 AC amps while producing 125 DC amps.

Barry

My bad. I didn't read his post clearly. Was just thinking about common shore power receptacles.

[Boxster1971]

David - thanks for the updates on using your big battery pack. That ARV system is sweet. You have said before that Roadtrek will likely set the pace for large lithium packs on B-vans. That seems to be the case for the Roadtrek 2016 E-Trek models.

Jim Hammill, Roadtrek's President, was interviewed on Mike Wendland's Roadtreking podcast # 38 (June 3rd) discussing that. The new 2016 E-Trek models will have options up to 1,600 AH of lithium batteries and 600 watts of solar for a cool $26,000.

- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

[Davydd]

Mike,

I missed that podcast. Since Wendland went to them I probably stopped checking out his website as frequently because I have little patience to listen to podcasts. I would rather speed read articles or scan them to find relevant information to determine if I want to invest the time to further read in detail. I also skip long Youtube videos more often if they go much longer than 5 minutes. Too many of them are a waste of time like the recent one that was posted about the 4x4 Sprinter was just an overall review of Sprinter with bare mention of the 4x4.

You've read my analysis. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, I've concluded one could achieve Wendland's national forest boondock experience on 400ah of lithium ion. The 1600ah of battery and 600w of solar I think stems from Hammill's desire to achieve 24/7 air conditioning that he stated was possible with a question last year. Is it really needed? $26,000 is going to answer that question for many. Based on the batteries I have from Elite Power Solutions and their website, batteries alone are about $12,000. Cost of installation and everything else I could conceivably see $26,000. Even in analyzing a second alternator I was kind of surprised by their cost but all the incidentals do add up.

Solar, I've determined, is the bigger hype. Take the Arizona desert for example. When solar is best, I am not going to be there. When solar is worst, I am going to be there. Solar flat on the roof works fine on the unobstructed road but then the second alternator is so efficient solar is not needed when driving. I'm going to camp mostly in the northeastern part of the country or high up in Rocky Mountain conifer forests in the summer. Both diminish solar greatly. Where I park at home I get little solar in my heavily wooded lot. For solar to work efficiently in the winter you would need to direct it toward the sun. That means portable systems where you have no practical place to store in a B or extensive actuating mechanisms on a roof when you have little weight to spare with such an addition.

Batteries. 1600ah of lithium ion battery is about 450 lbs for the batteries alone plus support and if as much as I described for mine for safety it could double the weight. Can a B carry that much without greatly diminishing other weight carrying capability such as water and waste tanks? As far a practical battery capacity goes I have determined 800ah will pretty much match up with my needs to be able to park for a long period before I have to move for water and waste of which I have a bit more than the Roadtreks. And once I move I can recharge rather fast.

Basically I am looking for the practical sweet spot in all this for a B. With my style I have pushed my 800ah of batteries to the limits with some deliberate testing but could probably get by with less with my historical touring style and my 3 day itch to move. If I were to do it all over I would reconsider the 420w solar and maybe opt for 300W with room for a satellite dish. I know Advanced RV is looking into installation of a 1200ah lithium ion battery bank for one customer but that involves a specialized medical reason for power.

It all comes back to that air conditioning. I'll never own a B if it means being cooped up inside to be comfortable. I've got enough power to spare for short term air conditioning. I've got an effective side and back screen to equalize the van temperature with the outside air. If I can't be comfortable outside I don't want to be there. If I were a camper that liked the luxury of campgrounds with shore power and saw boondocking as an occasional overnight necessity, then I would not need the battery and most of the solar power at all.

There is one thing I am convinced of in regard to batteries. When I first got into Bs all that was available were wet-cell lead acid. Then AGMs eventually took over. Lithium ion will nudge AGMs out. I don't know how many Roadtreks will sell at $26,000 options but it will hasten adoption of lithium ion at a lesser level of power.

[Boxster1971]

I agree with you about podcasts. I don't always look at them, but this one was mentioned on the Sprinter-Source Roadtrek subforum under a question about the 2016 models.

Mike W's podcasts are also full of ads, but I've managed to scan them for the good parts and not listen to the whole thing. Jim Hammill also said they would offer three levels of lithiums offered; 400, 800 and 1600 AH.

Regarding the weight issue - I think Roadtrek already has that worked out since the current E-Treks have eight 6 volt AGM batteries. They probably weigh over 450 lbs.

It should be interesting to see how the other big B-van manufacturers respond.

[pattonsr]

Where is Roadtrek putting the 1600 AH lithium? Are they mounted underneath and how are they protected from freezing weather?

[booster]

My guess would be that there will be larger and larger battery banks in the high end units, for those that want to have 110v all the time and use lots of 110v stuff like at home. To each their own.

I also think there will be a kind of "new normal" in the moderately priced units. With the rapidly growing popularity of compressor frigs (and bigger frigs), a desire to run an occasional high load item like a microwave, and lots of stuff like phones and tablets to keep charged, the old standard for 12v power capacity won't keep up. That said, it won't take anywhere near the hardware and batteries that the high end stuff is heading for.

My guess would be 300-400ah of batteries, agm now lithium in the future. 300-500 watts of solar for those who don't drive a lot and don't plug in. 100-150 amps of engine charging capacity.

It would be easy to use under 100ah per day and recover a lot of it with the solar. Even if the sun didn't shine, you would have 3 days without driving. (I wouldn't hesitate to take AGMs to 80% down once in a while, as long as I had a top notch charging system to bring them back up).

One thing all the manufacturers need to work on is there charging systems to take better advantage of the larger battery banks, solar, engine charging, while taking care not to damage the batteries.

Off course, all this could go away very quickly if a decent fuel cell shows up on the market.