Advancing Alvar

[SiennaGuy]

There's a video on YouTube that has the sound of an Espar heater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIu_TBSLaLI

[stanw909]

David. Could you please tell us the name and model number of you tv antenna? Thanks. Looks like your van is working out splendidly.

[migriffin]

Last night we were in Chisos Basin CG in Big Bend NP. The only RV bigger than ours was the campground host trailer. They recommend nothing over 26 feet negotiate the steep switchback road to get there.

Oh no. I had reservations at Chisos Basin too this past weekend and cancelled because of expected snow between here and Austin. I would have absolutely loved to see Alvar in person. I was so eager to see an Advanced RV in person that I tried to rent one in Southern California for the weekend, but it was booked. I hope you enjoyed Big Bend. It's the perfect place for a Class-B.

[markopolo]

How about an update Dayydd. I'd be most interested to hear your experience for anything related to the batteries or power consumption etc. Is it all working as good as or better than you had planned?

[Davydd]

Update. We are still on the road (since February 2) and currently in Burke, VA (Washington, DC.) We have so far covered about 9,800 miles since picking up our ARV in Willoughby, OH, driving home and then heading out for Arizona. We got as far as San Diego, CA turned and headed east. We even drove back to Willoughby, OH for a tuneup, checkover and some warranty fixes. We are somewhat experimental guinea pigs being the first out the door with a lot of new things. We headed back south and hit the east coast on Tybee Island near Savannah, GA and then started working our way north again. At the end of this week we will head north and home hoping the weather will be amenable.

We have been encountering mostly unopen campgrounds in the public sector outside the deep south and southwest. That really hasn't deterred us much but we have stayed at some rather expensive campgrounds in Sedona, AZ, metro San Diego, Savannah, GA and Charleston, SC for location convenience. We were finding even our favorite type of campground in state parks to be rather expensive at $30+ this year. We almost felt cheated because we really did not need the full hookups offered. We last stopped at a KOA right adjacent to the Blue Ridge Parkway because the parkway and Shenandoah NP campgrounds weren't open yet. Cost has been as high as about $83 per night (San Diego) in those private campgrounds. Despite those cost our average charges are under $15 per night because we have camped at BLM lands, Walmarts, Cracker Barrels, Camping World, residential streets, driveways and miscellaneous parking lots for free.

We quit plugging in to shore power electrical since February 23 just to experiment. An overnight stay is usually recharged on the road in less than an hour. We don't conserve on our electrical use as we have cooked on the induction burner and used to convection/microwave routinely for dinners and the Keurig for coffee frequently. In fact we used our Coleman propane camp stove just once this trip and plan to leave it at home on our next trip. Our average length of time between water fills and grey/black tank dumps is about 10 days because we have been habitually practicing our previous Class B water saving ways even though we are almost double in tank capacity. The ARV is so well insulated especially for sound and the curtains totally darken the B we can camp at Walmarts next to a freeway and semi trucks with little apprehension. We no longer jockey around to get away from parking lot lamp posts. They are actually an aid for lighting the bathroom at night through our skylight.

The solar panels have been a bit disappointing. I expected better results and I suspect they are over-hyped. In the winter the sun is low and that will be when we will be in the sunny southwest - never in the high sun summer. Then in the summer I suspect we will be camping mostly in the north woods with lots of shade. There is a lot more parasitic electrical loss, inverter inefficiency and refrigerator demand than one could calculate. That seems to average about 10 amps per hour. So in a 24 hour period if you do nothing that is about 240 ah off the batteries. With an 800ah battery back we can sit easily for three days which is longer than I can stand to do. The solar in the winter isn't helping all that much. We have been parked for three days now in a townhouse parking lot and it has been cloudy all week. I will probably take Alvar out for a site seeing errand running drive today to recharge.

I'm loving the articulated beds in being able to adjust them to just relax (zero gravity lounger position), watch TV or just read. Since they are twin beds my wife and I can adjust them anyway we want. Quite a bit of the trip has been in cold weather especially after the winter sun goes down (30s and 40s in the desert) that living inside has been easy. We also have the turned around cab seats and the computer desk to give us two-zone living.

We seem to attract little notice. We have been approached only twice by curiosity seekers. I think our stealthiness is working or is a bit intimidating with the dark grey. A next site camper at Sedona jokingly asked us if we were CIA. In a way we looked not much different than the shuttle vans with air conditioning working the tourist areas and airports.

We will be home for a couple of weeks and then head out again in late April for a B social at Lake of the Ozarks, then Advanced RV Fest in Willoughby, OH, then the Indianapolis Grand Prix, then the RV.net B Rally in North Carolina and finally back to Indianapolis for the Indy 500 in successive weeks. We have a bit of driving to do this first half of the year yet.

[gerrym51]

Davydd- i suspect the more alternator power you have the less valuable solar panels. sounds like a great trip so far.

[bobojay]

This time of the year and the weather, I'm not surprised at the solar assessment statement. I too think they are somewhat over-hyped in their current state of development, at least for 7-8 months of the year if you live in the midwest or northern states.
Be anxious to hear your thoughts at the social......

[booster]

At 240AH a day of base load, the solar doesn't stand a chance when you only have 420(?) watts. Under good conditions you will be only about 130AH per day. Add shade, clouds, low sun, and you might be 1/4 of that and insignificant by the time you put in your non base use.

I posted this a while ago

http://classbforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3605

It will allow you to get an idea of what to expect out of your panels at any give time and place. At least then you know if they are working as they should.

Our parasitic, non including the frig, is about 14AH. 30-70AH with the frig on. When we add what we use, we probably average around 50AH per day. If we get good sun 50% of the time (summer in the north, even winter in the south), we can usually break even. Put in the trees and clouds, and it all changes. This is with 300 watts, predicted from what we saw with 200 watts in the past.

[avanti]

Even a solar array at its theoretical maximum efficiency the size of a Sprinter roof is likely to disappoint as a source of routine power, averaged over the year. IMO, solar panels are valuable for keeping the battery topped up and healthy during storage. Trying to go beyond that is likely a waste of time, under typical circumstances.

Davydd: 10 amps of parasitic power loss is pretty painful, even including the fridge (although, admittedly, you can afford it ). Do you have any idea where it is all going? I'm wondering how much is due to the SliverLeaf and its associated systems.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd- i suspect the more alternator power you have the less valuable solar panels. sounds like a great trip so far.

In Davydd's case, I think this is very true, especially with how much he is using.

With non lithium batteries, the solar can be very handy for supplying the absorption hold time (3-4 hours) that the batteries need to be happy. Quick fill to 85-90% on the alternator in a short drive, finish off with solar, as the power needed is very low at that point, and it can happen as you eat lunch, shop, or go hiking.

[Davydd]

Avanti,

You misunderstood what I said. Parasitic is only a portion. The 10ah includes the refrigerator/freezer always on but not necessarily running all the time. Also, just checking I realized I had been keeping my rear Pioneer audio/visual monitor system on standby. Also, everything in our B is 115v ready 24/7. The microwave/convection oven is always displaying the correct time for instance. It never shuts off. I don't know how much current an always ready appliance draws.

The Silverleaf monitors everything as information reports to it and I imagine there is a steady state of reporting going on. The grey/black and fresh tanks all operate from a barometric pressure sensor reporting by percent full (no idiot lights). If you watch the read out you will often see the percentage going back and forth between two sometimes three numbers. That means there is constant reading going on. Also, electrically each battery cell, all 32 of them have constant read out in voltage and temperature. The rate of discharge and charging is also reported. So I imagine that takes some energy. The Silverleaf monitors the refrigerator and freezer temperatures. The Silverleaf touch screen monitor is always on though it can be programmed to shut off at night displaying only the time and can be dimmed in three dimming stages during the day. So, I would have to guess it does take some energy for that convenience.

The Wifi Ranger system lights are always blinking. The Wilson cell booster is always on. So, I guess you pay a penalty to have all that stuff.

I don't quite understand how the Outback inverter/charger interfaces with all this mainly because I rarely hear it or its fan because it is so quiet. Before we got the van I was dreading that there would be a sound like the small inverters with built in fans we had for our TVs that I hated. I figured out early on in my Pleasure-way and Great West Van that if we ever used our TV we generally had shore power so I re-routed the TV plug in to a 115v outlet bypassing the inverter.

Edit: In looking at the Outback monitor readout directly it was showing that it was using 2 amps.

[markopolo]

We talk a lot about DC parasitic draws but not so much about AC parasitic draws.

Every AC device / appliance in my van can be powered by the inverter and all those standby modes add up I'm sure. Wifi router, 3G router, TV antenna amp, air conditioner & microwave oven are AC powered and they all light up if plugged in when I turn on the inverter. The air conditioner & microwave oven each can be plugged into outlets that are not on the inverter circuit. I ended up mounting two power/surge bars that have switches, one near the microwave and one in the rear. That way, I can shut off a group of AC devices easily. With only two batteries I have to pay attention to things like that.

Thanks for the update Davydd - really good info I think you "right sized" the battery bank. In those early discussions it seemed so large but that's what it takes to have the level of convenience you have.

[avanti]

Thanks for the accounting, DavyDD. Very interesting. So, if the 10 amps includes the fridge, a swag might be that on average it is accounting for maybe half, or a little less of the total load. So, 5 or 6 amps is the "tax" for all the convenience. Not bad. And as I say, certainly affordable given your capacity.

I just went out and did some quick tests on our Legend. Here's what I got:

--Idle state (smoke and LP detectors, Outback on standby, Trimetric display, Espar on standby): .6A
--Outback inverter on (with microwave and Keurig parasitic): 2.2A
--Fridge & associated fans: 6.2A (when running)
--Propane solenoid: .8A (ouch!)
--Main LED Lights, bright: 1.5A; dim: unmeasurable
--Data Comm power (Router, Powered WiFi antenna, etc): 1.1A
--Media parasitic power (TV, AppleTV, Audio, USB outlets): .4A
--Tank heaters: 3.8A

--on this sunny spring afternoon in PA, our single 140watt solar panel was contributing 4-5A.

The approach I took in designing our rig was to maximize the ability to easily control each subsystem. So, for example, We would only turn on the propane solenoid if we are going to use the stove or genset. If I leave the inverter on, it works like Alvair. If I am trying to go long power-wise, I turn it off when not needed (admittedly losing the time on the micro).

[Davydd]

If you go back to my early analysis determining battery bank size you'll see I did not fully account for everything. The periodically observed 10ah draw down is pretty consistent and has varied from 8 to 14 when I supposedly had nothing on or in use. I'm glad I chose the 800ah bank instead of the 400ah or 600ah options. We are parked for the week without shore power giving us some time to experiment with Alvar. In three days we drew down about 510ah just sitting parked with the refrigerator still on. Over a total of 69 hours that works out to about 7.4 amps per hour which is less than my observed 10ah average. But even with the cloudy days there evidently was some solar contribution. I turned on the genset and charged up the batteries for exactly an hour. That averaged out to a charge of 168ah. Observing periodically it was varying from 102ah to 198ah at idle of a little over 1100 rpm. I didn't fully charge the batteries. When driving I have observed as high as 240ah and once you go over 90% charged the charge rate gradually reduces down to maintenance charging at 99-100% charged if any charging no matter how long you drive. Usually an overnight stay as I mentioned recharges fully in about an hour of driving.

BTW, Even though I have 800ah of batteries I am working with a range of 600ah or 25% to 100% of capacity. I'm not going down to the ARV governed 20% because I understand if that happens the ARV arbitrary governor shuts down the system and it takes about 6 minutes of holding down a button manually to restart the electrical power with the engine running to recharge. I have set the auto genset start to come on at 25% capacity left. This range is what will allow the batteries to last longer or longer than I imagine I will have the B. Theoretically you can go down to near 0% or 10% as some advocate and still get the industry touted 2,000 cycles. Auto genset has never come on. I can start and stop it with no key in the ignition from the Silverleaf monitor. I have the software app to do it from my iPhone remotely but haven't bothered to set that up yet. In time I will get around to that. When I get home I may experiment and let it go all the way down to auto start. Depending on the solar contribution that would probably be anywhere from 3 to 5 days sitting. to prevent that the other option is just to disconnect the batteries but at home it will stay on our 30 amp shore power. Here in Washington, DC we have a fully stocked refrigerator so disconnecting is not a desired option.

The other battery protection is temperature. Putting a charge on a lithium ion battery at below freezing will diminish the life of the batteries drastically. If the batteries go below freezing the system is programmed to simply shut charging down to protect the batteries. There is a heating element in the battery box that comes on at 40 degrees to prevent that.

Avanti, The water autofill, water pump, Espar heat and hot water, air conditioning, fans, electric floor heat and temperature are also controlled on the Siverleaf touch screen monitor. The refrigerator and freezer temperatures are only monitored. You still have to use the dial in the refrigerator to adjust. It is just a convenient way to get at everything at one point. Makes for an easy checklist to turn everything off when getting underway to travel or just go through and check everything.

[bobojay]

You answered one of my questions. How fast is the charge idle? About 1100 rpm. I had figured it would be 950 to 1200 as a guess because of the needs of the alternator(s) based on past experience with fire service vehicles

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

--on this sunny spring afternoon in PA, our single 140watt solar panel was contributing 4-5A.

The approach I took in designing our rig was to maximize the ability to easily control each subsystem. So, for example, We would only turn on the propane solenoid if we are going to use the stove or genset. If I leave the inverter on, it works like Alvair. If I am trying to go long power-wise, I turn it off when not needed (admittedly losing the time on the micro).

With our 420 watts of solar I am guessing we probably topped out last February in Arizona under clear skies at about 14a. So maybe that wasn't as bad as I thought. Sun was lower then. Still...

I haven't explored the option of simply turning off the Outback. The Outback control box is right there in the cabinet behind the Silverleaf screen. I haven't looked to see if it could be done right on the Silverleaf monitor. That just never occurred to me to do that. I'll look into that tomorrow. The refrigerator runs directly off the batteries on 12v.

[Arlo]

On my Etrek the 5000w inverter is on only when I am using the oven, induction cooktop, or Insinkerator "instant" hot water (for morning coffee or evening tea) ... and AC, which is rare. I keep the breakers for the oven and cooktop flipped off unless I am using them. My coach inverter, however, is far from silent. The fan noise is tough to ignore. Apple TV, TV, OTA antenna, wifi hotspot, and Sony surround sound do not rely on the big coach inverter.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Arlo

On my Etrek the 5000w inverter is on only when I am using the oven, induction cooktop, or Insinkerator "instant" hot water (for morning coffee or evening tea) ... and AC, which is rare. I keep the breakers for the oven and cooktop flipped off unless I am using them.

Does the inverter auto-detect the load and turn itself on? The Outback can do that, but I've never configured it to do so.

My coach inverter, however, is far from silent. The fan noise is tough to ignore.

As DavyDD said, the Outback is amazingly quiet.

Apple TV, TV, OTA antenna, and Sony surround sound do not rely on the big coach inverter.

All of our media run on direct 12VDC. I even modified the AppleTV to run on 12 volts. You can read about it here:
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32035

[hanesworthy]

Originally Posted by Davydd

At the end of this week we will head north and home hoping the weather will be amenable.

Noooooooo!

Still below freezing at night, and just inching above it during the day.

But one day we'll wake up and it will suddenly be 75 again. You know, springtime in Minnesota.

BAM!

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by avanti

Does the inverter auto-detect the load and turn itself on? The Outback can do that, but I've never configured it to do so.

My inverter can auto-detect the instant-hot system but not the oven or cooktop. If I flip the inverter into power-saver (auto-detect) mode in the wee hours when I drain my bladder, I know the water is hot when the inverter fan noise stops.

I use a small (quiet) 2-outlet inverter for the Apple TV and sound system. Saw your post on converting the Apple TV to 12v, but it was too easy to just buy a small inverter.