Advancing Alvar

[avanti]

I agree that closed cell foam would be optimal (but difficult to do well, as you suggest). The Hushmat is a non-issue for the same reason (there is no place to trap moisture), even though it is itself a vapor barrier. But I agree with Booster's analysis in the case of the denim insulation. It will tend to become moist and stay that way for long periods if there is an inward-facing vapor barrier. This is not a good thing. An inside barrier can do little good and potentially significant harm. Your "retardant" characterization is a good one. It will never stop all the moisture from entering (and an occupied camper is a VERY moist environment), but will drastically slow the drying process. Best to maximize the ventilation so that the inevitable leakage is gotten rid of as rapidly as possible. Obviously you call, though.

[Davydd]

If you have enough ventilation as you say to dry out the insulation then you have a very leaky heat loss van. With vinyl wall coverings and such you are not ventilating walls because the vinyl is a very effective air barrier. I think you are confusing air ventilation with vapor transfer. Given equals, with an interior vapor barrier and not an interior vapor barrier the insulation will be dryer with the vapor barrier than without. But as I said before, I don't think this is an issue unless you plan to do some serious cold weather camping.

[booster]

Perhaps the egg camper folks like Scamp have learned something over the years about condensation and staining of interior fabrics. They use a single layer of Reflectix type material that is glued directly to the shell of the camper. It is nowhere near the R10 they claim it is, but it will not absorb any moisture and is a vapor barrier in both directions, no condensation within it.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

Perhaps the egg camper folks like Scamp have learned something over the years about condensation and staining of interior fabrics. They use a single layer of Reflectix type material that is glued directly to the shell of the camper. It is nowhere near the R10 they claim it is, but it will not absorb any moisture and is a vapor barrier in both directions, no condensation within it.

Booster,

I looked at the Scamp website and it appears to me the Scamp is a thin fiberglass shell. If that thin reflectix type material is something like Hushmat or Dynamat I would assume it has a foil surface which is considered impermeable. The Scamp website claims R15. That is an impossible claim, IMO. R-values are a set value such as the surface air or are an expression of resistance per inch for materials. You then add up an assembly of materials to arrive at an R-value. The most efficient insulation materials are the closed cell foams and an inch of extruded polystyrene for example is R-5. There is not even an inch of thickness in those walls that I can discern. How manufacturers come up with wild claims for basically a thin assembly is beyond me. They are either lying out their teeth or they are totally ignorant.

So the answer is simple for a Scamp. If that interior fabric is glued directly to the reflectix surface it only means the vapor in the trailer is not penetrating any walls but is simply reaching its dew point on an essentially uninsulated surface and condensing because that surface is cold and no different than a window pane.

[booster]

The material, like Reflectix is basically bubble wrap with foil faces, which does insulate, but not a whole lot. If you put it on a window, like many folks do, you can really tell it does make a difference. What R value, who knows. I do know that you don't see condensation stains on the inside of egg trailers very often, so the combination of the fiberglass, bubblewrap, and fabric must help.

I think the distorted claims of insulation value goes back to about the mid 1970's (?) when the insulation folks came to the conclusion that a single radiant reflective layer (tinfoil basically) was as high an effective R value as 3.5" of fiberglass, and sold it as such. Lots of folks found out that it was BS when they froze in their new houses, that had essentially no insulation in the walls.

[Davydd]

Bubble wrap materials are really no better than insulated glass if that. If it is foil the reflecting attributes are doing more good than insulation and those materials work a lot better in regard to reflecting heat than insulating from cold. Other than that I think it is more psychologically comforting than real, especially at night in an RV.

If egg trailers are not staining all that much it just means as I mentioned before condensation is usually not a factor when camping in temperate weather which I think we all do most of the time. When cold and left unheated the assembly equalizes out and there usually is no vapor movement or condensation. If there are problems it might be with the November deer hunters in northern Minnesota using their Scamps.

Reflectance is not R-value. Foil will reflect radiant heat back as it does reflecting the sun's heat away as well. But that is only a delay factor. For daytime stops with an RV that delay period can be significantly effective. The heat will still conduct and convect into or out of a space. To hold heat you have to impede it (R-value conductance) or make the space air tight (convection). There are still companies out there claiming spray paints are effective. Of course, every film of surface is effective to a degree in R-value but it can be calculated.

[USAussie]

@Davydd
You're very quickly convincing me that one of my original choices for a B (Advanced RV) is the right way to go.
Question: how are you selling your current GWV? Trade-in, private sale? Just curious....

USAussie

[Davydd]

With winter coming on fast here in Minnesota (this Monday for sure) and no desire to gamble on trying to sell it ourselves in the winter, we sold it to Lake Region RVs in Ramsey, Minnesota for basically trade in value. The other option would have been to sell it with them handling it on consignment but by the time they took their cut it would essentially have been similar to a trade in anyway. This way we are free and clear of it and have money in hand. We originally bought our Great West from Lake Region RVs.

We procrastinated until September in seriously selling it mainly because we were harboring some one last trips up to northern Minnesota and the BEE Social in Georgia in late September that we eventually backed out of. It was kind of hard to let go of because it was such a good Class B.

Advanced RV says they can assist on selling your old RV but they do not negotiate and do trade ins. I never pursued talking to them about the extent of it. I saw they had one customer's old RV warehoused there in a building down the street.

Here is our former Great West Van Legend at Lake Region RVs. http://www.lakeregionrvs.com/pre_owned_ ... eh=3956805

[mikes47]

USAussie, you would not be the first to be convinced to go with Advanced RV because of Davydd's postings. He convinced me that ARV was the way to go. I am now eagerly waiting delivery of my own ARV, dubbed "Imagine". And to think, the guy doesn't even get a commission! Thanks, again, David for all the insights.
Mike

[booster]

From the Bonded Logic (makes denim insulation) website FAQ

What happens when UltraTouch gets wet? UltraTouch is manufactured to breathe and accept/release the moisture it receives in a timely manner. UltraTouch also contains active mold inhibitors as well.

Does UltraTouch have a vapor barrier? No, UltraTouch is manufactured in batt form and is unfaced. If your local building code requires the use of a vapor barrier, we recommend a semi-permeable barrier be used.

In a building I would think that the second statement would mean a semi-permeable on the inside wall and none on the outside. Most codes here give a mil thickness of plastic sheet, I think, so I don't know if they would allow semi-permeable, in an RV no rules would prevent any usage that I know of.

[Davydd]

I have read all the literature on blue denim. It is a product I have never used in a building. To me it is pretty much equivalent to fiber glass batt insulation. It is a feel good recyclable product in both production and disposal. Installation should be much easier than fiber glass if for nothing other than the safety and non-irritant convenience for the installer and in turn potentially a better job of installation as a result.

In the building industry plastic sheeting is considered semi-permeable as opposed to aluminum foil which is considered a perfect vapor barrier. Those statements are CYA words because if vapor gets in and condenses, which it will, then they are covered as there are many ways for vapor to penetrate walls and most commonly uncovered areas or holes. In northern climates all model building codes require vapor barriers. I've gone over this before. The facing they mention they don't have is the typical facing that comes with fiber glass batts for installation with uniform wood and metal studding in buildings. The fiber glass installed in my Great West van Legend didn't have facing either. We are dealing with a mobile van that goes to all climates so you shouldn't directly relate all static building rules of thumb that started this whole conversation.

What they mean by breath and accept/release moisture is that blue denim batts, same as fiber glass, are structured insulations. They will not break down with moisture. Vapor will get in and condense at some dew point. Moisture will seep down in the volumes of air space and out or it will re-vaporize and travel out. A spray foam type insulation of which there are a lot of on the market that are not closed cell will break down with moisture and basically become a compressed soggy mass that will not come back. In my former career I had most all those kinds of insulations independently tested. Closed cell sprays like polyurethanes stay structured but they have other problems in regard to expansion and metal wall distortion. Closed cell board insulations would be difficult to install labor and material waste wise and nearly impossible in the rib areas of a van.

I will say it again. A vapor barrier helps more than hurts. It is a given the outside being metal is considered a perfect vapor barrier. So, the more vapor you can prevent getting inside your walls insulated or not, the better off you are. If you do not have a vapor barrier and if you do not have insulation to cause condensation before it hits your metal outside wall then you are going to have a lot of condensation on you metal. If your windows are condensing in that condition so is your van metal. If you don't have insulation and do have a vapor barrier inside then the condensation could form at the vapor barrier point which would usually be behind wall board and finish. That is why you might get staining. You then have to decide better your inside wall or your outside metal skin. This is mostly an issue if you cold climate camp and heat your van a lot. One saving grace of cold climates is the air is dryer so you can control it somewhat in how you deal with use of moisture inside your van such as running hot water (showers), boiling water and cooking kept to a minimum; sleeping in sleeping bags with temperature turned way down, etc.

The best scenario? Insulation and inside vapor barrier, IMO. Of course insulation would be almost necessary in cold climate camping. In hot/warm climates keeping a van open as possible to equalize outside to inside is the best policy to prevent condensation. In a closed van the air conditioner not only cools but draws out excessive moisture. Since the inside is colder than the outside and your glass and metal are perfect vapor barriers and air barriers much more so than you can achieve inside to outside, vapor in the walls should not be much of a problem since vapor moves from warm to cold. In very hot and humid climate condensation can occur inside and outside simply because the materials of your van are cooler at the dew point. In effect you can run into conditions where humidity will simply overwhelm you. Air conditioning controls the inside.

Hey, I am now exhausted on this subject other than to say I believe Advanced RV does a better job on this than any other major converter and I have no qualms.

[Davydd]

Alvar is in the cabinet shop this week at Advanced RV. The cabinet shop is about 20 miles from Advanced RV's main shop. You can see the kitchen counter island. The recess in the middle will be a pull-out Keurig coffee maker. The countertop is not on yet. You can kind of see the upper cabinets. The trim band accent is a brushed stainless steel. The cabinetry is a laminate surface called Alaskan Walnut. All the radii you see are vacuum formed in the shop. Those are the push-pull positive door and drawer latches. The drawers are on soft-self closing slides. I don't think any other B converter is doing those slides that I found in most all the top of the line kitchen cabinets when I was checking new kitchens with my sister last May. In the background coming up right behind is Mikes47's Imagine RV.

[Davydd]

You learn something new every day. I knew I was getting the upgraded Pioneer radio with the built in navigation and screen. I have to admit I have never been enamored with built in navigation systems with vehicles. What I didn't know, mainly because I just didn't investigate is that it will have Apple Carplay that will work with our iPhones. So like before I should be able to use Apple Maps or Google Maps or other apps for navigation if I chose, plus lots of other apps and stuff. That should not be much different with my previously having an iPad mounted on my dashboard.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/AppRadio

My wife has an Apple 5S iPhone. I will be getting the new Apple 6 Plus iPhone this week. I haven't disposed of my iPhone 4S yet and saw that another Advanced RV user was using his old 4S as a clock. There are two USB outlets, one on each side of the van, at the head of the bed. That could be one use.

[Tenbike2]

Originally Posted by Davydd

In anticipation of the 4x4 Sprinters, Advanced RV started developing a more sporty look to their RVs instead of the traditional fiber glass skirt. Here is one example that has been built - the nerf bar skirt.



Yes, we are going for it even though we won't have 4x4. I understand there are some modifications to come such as maybe not as much checker plate. There is actually a cost savings to do so.

We were at advanced rv all day Friday with Brittany. We were informed that the outside shower would not be available at the normal spot. Do you use the outside shower ? I have enjoyed reading your posts and am considering ordering one. P.S. someone asked what the price was for the lithium ion packages. To go from 400ah to 600ah was $2100 and again $2100 to go from 600ah to 800ah. This was what I remember as there was much info to digest. In addition the battery capacity can be increased after you have the van . There may be additional costs when done at a later time. Thanks for all the info as this is all new to me .

[Davydd]

Tenbike2,

I wasn't aware of any change in the outside shower. We have rarely used our outside showers but think of it more important for cleaning sand off the feet at a beach. My understanding is they have one size battery box for all three amp hour options so it shouldn't be to difficult to upgrade I would think.

I had second thoughts when I originally settled on the 400 ah battery package and chose the 600 ah. Now I am having third thoughts about 800 ah. It is more about leaving something on the table.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Tenbike2,

I wasn't aware of any change in the outside shower. We have rarely used our outside showers but think of it more important for cleaning sand off the feet at a beach. My understanding is they have one size battery box for all three amp hour options so it shouldn't be to difficult to upgrade I would think.

I had second thoughts when I originally settled on the 400 ah battery package and chose the 600 ah. Now I am having third thoughts about 800 ah. It is more about leaving something on the table.

if i had the option i would get the most available-since your not getting a generator

[Tenbike2]

[quote="Davydd"]Tenbike2,

I wasn't aware of any change in the outside shower. We have rarely used our outside showers but think of it more important for cleaning sand off the feet at a beach. My understanding is they have one size battery box for all three amp hour options so it shouldn't be to difficult to upgrade I would think.

Brittany told us that the new running board design at this time does not allow space for the outside water outlet. They said it could be relocated to one of the back basement storage boxes. However this could change as it is further developed. Thanks for your feedback. Jim P.S. We visited the cabinet shop which is some distance from their main site. They are working on your van and it looks great!! Another van was being delivered to its very proud new owners on Friday.they looked a little overwhelmed with the amount of info they were trying to absorb. It was a beautiful white RV. Again thanks

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

If the charging with the second alternator can maintain over 300 amps then I would go with 800 lithium. A normal drive to the next location should charge up the batteries and allow for long dry camping. Do you know if Advanced RV has run tests to determine the length of time to fully charge the 800 option from 20% to 100%?

[Davydd]

Pattonsr,

Advanced RV is claiming they can charge at a rate of up to 300 amps per hour. That really depends on the temperature of the alternator I believe to achieve that. So let's be pessimistic and say 200. You would have to drive a little over 3 hours at that rate to recharge. That would be about 180-200 miles which is under what we usually drive in a day to recharge 640 ah. Seems doable. Solar will simultaneously supplement I understand and I imagine solar might work better on the open road than a wooded campground. I believe air conditioning would pull out about 125 amps per hour. As I mentioned in my analysis for 600 ah batteries that I doubt I would ever tax them down. The only way I could would be to run the air conditioning I think. If I exercised my historic battery management frugality I think I could boondock for a whole week without driving or idling, but the idea is I don't want to necessarily be that frugal.

[gerrym51]

since reading many articles on lithium batteries in the last several days-and making some wrong statements-the one consistent thing i've seen is that charging right up to full charge can somtimes be a mistake. although the safety devices are suppose to prevent this it seems lithium batteries are far easier to harm with overcharging. several commenters i read recommended no more tha 90-95 percent

lithium batteries have no memories so they don't care.at least what i;ve read