Advancing Alvar

[markopolo]

On my van (probably most vans) setting the parking brake when idling the van turns off the daytime running lights. Might be the same on Sprinters.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by markopolo

On my van (probably most vans) setting the parking brake when idling the van turns off the daytime running lights. Might be the same on Sprinters.

I'll have to check that out. One time we left a campground before sunrise and desired not to use our headlights. In that case the parking brake would not have helped. You diesel sound them and headlight them and hopefully they will not see you again.

[Davydd]

The good news. I was informed my chassis was delivered to Advanced RV this morning. That's a bit earlier than the October date I had anticipated. It looks as if we will be heading out to Cleveland soon to work out some details.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The good news. I was informed my chassis was delivered to Advanced RV this morning. That's a bit earlier than the October date I had anticipated. It looks as if we will be heading out to Cleveland soon to work out some details.

yay!good for you

[gordonhks]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The good news. I was informed my chassis was delivered to Advanced RV this morning. That's a bit earlier than the October date I had anticipated. It looks as if we will be heading out to Cleveland soon to work out some details.

NIce!!!!!!!

[Davydd]

Our plans now are to be at Advanced RV bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Wednesday, September 24 to get things underway on our new Class B.

Advanced RV says they have completed their new Version 2.0 modular battery system driven by lithium batteries. They say there are about a dozen partner suppliers who have created custom products, software, and firmware to support their lithium battery integrated power system. What they have disclosed all sounds very exciting. Can’t wait to see it.

[pattonsr]

After you see Version 2.0, I hope Advanced RV will tell the rest of us all about it or let you tell us with words and pictures.

[Davydd]

pattonsr,

I did get a more detailed email from Frank Kolasinski, their energy systems expert, who wrote this:

"We are careful to publicly share our developments only after they are real. The following is real and we are comfortable to share it with you as a client.
You are welcome to share it on the blogs if you wish."

To be honest, I am still a bit energy systems dyslexic so I thought I would digest a bit of what Frank was saying to better understand it before mentioning more.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

While you are digesting what Frank wrote to you, let me guess at what Advanced RV might be doing.

Nations is implying that Roadtrek and Advanced RV are using their 4 cyl and 6 cyl dual alternator kits. Nations also shows a Balmar MC-614 multi-stage smart regulator attached to one of their alternators.

The Balmar has ramp up belt technology that helps with large powerful alternators. It wouldn't surprise me if Advanced RV is using Nations since the 4 cylinder kit is now available. The Balmar will charge Lithium batteries just fine.

They might also be using a bi-directional isolator to feed additional amps to the Lithium bank from the Sprinter battery and going in the other direction provide some trickle charge to the Sprinter battery. This is how things are done today with only the Sprinter alternator in the picture.

I hope they will use a shunt to measure all input and output to the Lithium bank. Then a custom battery management device will be able to derive a State of Charge (SOC) which would be useful for the Silverleaf to decide when the Lithium batteries are down to 20% and start up high idle. My understanding is that the current available battery management monitors have not been tested using Lithium and therefore the SOC may not be accurate using current monitors.

Davydd mentioned sometime earlier the problem with charging Lithium in cold temperatures. So I would expect a new location for the Lithium batteries under the floor that is somehow heated. I would expect in the future a new video showing the underside and how the batteries are mounted and heated. As an example the prior video of the Espar hydronic system showed the attention to detail that extends to even the underside of the chassis.

It would be nice for a remote that would show what the Balmar is doing and what the custom battery management device is saying.

[Davydd]

pattonsr,

Yes, charging lithium batteries in below 32 deg. F. temperatures will damage them and permanently reduce battery capacity. At Advanced RV Fest they were working on insulated battery boxes with supplied heat. Frank just mentioned too their power system will automatically make sure cell temperatures are above freezing when charging is required. My understanding is a charged lithium battery will still provide power with no problem, but the recharging of a depleted battery in freezing weather would be the issue. Their system would monitor each and every cell individually "in temperature, input and output accounting for an accurate state of charge, with a recalibration at full charge and true array equalization for charge/discharge", and shut off charging if below freezing. If they can keep the batteries above freezing they could still be charged.

ARV says they are using lithium batteries in a high capacity configuration adopted from the electric car industry and have moved beyond the car type lithium discrete battery for better control and monitoring. I take that to mean they are not using something like the Smart Battery they had been using. They say they plan on lithium battery configurations of minimum of 400 AH … a second level of 600 AH … and the max of 800 AH.

They say they have a custom programmed alternator charge controller coupled with their alternator cooling system can provide 300 plus amps to recharge the battery array.

The Silverleaf system can now shows the exact charge/discharge current from any of multiple sources. I take that to mean alternator, shore and solar.

They are confident the lithium batteries will last 10 years in the RV and could go through 5,000 cycles. The weight of the batteries would be about a third of AGMs. With lighter batteries, eliminating an Onan generator and propane tank with propane, I see some weight savings.

Other than Silverleaf they haven't thrown out brands of their proprietary systems they've developed. We know about their Outback inverter/charger. We know Nations has worked with them. I've seen different solar arrays on the roofs they have published and with some sleuthing I think I know what they have used only they told me they are doing some further research no one has seen before.

[pattonsr]

What you describe sounds like a custom battery monitor that is feed by a shunt that in turn feeds the Silverleaf as a display device. The Technomadia couple who built a custom Lithium system in their bus stressed that not having a battery monitor is like driving a car without a gas gauge. The shunt will see everything going in and out of the battery bank.

Are you temped by the second level of 600 AH? I wonder what the bulk charge time to go from 20% to around 90% will be if the charging can exceed 300 plus amps. My understanding is that AGMs bulk stage ends around 80% but as an example the Smart Battery Lithium bulk charge ended over 90% with no penalty for not ever going to 100%.





.

[booster]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

What you describe sounds like a custom battery monitor that is feed by a shunt that in turn feeds the Silverleaf as a display device. The Technomadia couple who built a custom Lithium system in their bus stressed that not having a battery monitor is like driving a car without a gas gauge. The shunt will see everything going in and out of the battery bank.

Are you temped by the second level of 600 AH? I wonder what the bulk charge time to go from 20% to around 90% will be if the charging can exceed 300 plus amps. My understanding is that AGMs bulk stage ends around 80% but as an example the Smart Battery Lithium bulk charge ended over 90% with no penalty for not ever going to 100%. .

If the lithium batteries behave like lead acid, AGM, etc, the battery monitor will give you an idea of how full you are, but not be accurate enough to know when you are full. Again if they behave similarly, the shunt will give you an amperage that would be tapering, so that could be used to stop the charge, like it is done with other batteries. I also can't imagine trying to run that big a bank, with high rate charging from multiple sources, without a very complete monitoring and safety system. Charging at 300+ amps into a battery that can catch fire if overheated leaves little room for error.

[pattonsr]

booster,

Technomadia had an article on the safety of their Lithium batteries that are used in RV's.

http://www.technomadia.com/2013/02/d...ithium-worries

[avanti]

The Outback FLEXnet DC battery monitor has three shunts, and integrates directly with the Outback MATE controller (and, I assume, through that to the Silverleaf). I bet that is how they are doing the fancy monitoring.

I have the same Outback inverter in my GWV Legend. I am considering adding the Flexnet DC monitor. It is about a $300 item, but would be pretty slick. I am not a fan of the Silverleaf touchpad approach, but I like the Outback MATE and the Flexnet DC would work seamlessly with it.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

booster,

Technomadia had an article on the safety of their Lithium batteries that are used in RV's.

http://www.technomadia.com/2013/02/d...ithium-worries

That article shows Elite Power Systems GBS Li-lion batteries. Information is here:

http://www.elitepowersolutions.com/discover.html

GBS Li-ion batteries cells demonstrate the highest safety performance in the industry. The safety valves have ability to pop often under extreme conditions, in order to quickly release cell internal pressure, and thus to prevent cells from catching fire. Tests have been conducted to confirm cells do not catch fire or explode even in abusive conditions, such as nail penetration, short circuit, over-charging, over-discharging, over-temperature, crushing, dropping, and etc.

ARV was testing these batteries last May at Advanced RV Fest. Is this what they might be using? I don't know.

[pattonsr]

Avanti says that he likes the Outback MATE and the Flexnet DC would work seamlessly with it. I agree with that. But the problem with using a Silverleaf to interface with the MATE is that the interface is a serial port and the data stream must be parsed to extract the information that the MATE displays.

Silverleaf has not supported the Flexnet DC since there is no demand for it. Of course Advanced RV might have talked them into doing the support, but I would like the battery monitor to be independent of Outback. I would see an advantage to having an independent monitor that Silverleaf would interface with.

I would like to use a hybrid Magnum MSH3012M in place of the Outback. Silverleaf would still support everything else and the Magnum ME-ARC remote would handle inverter/charger settings. An independent battery monitor would still be interfaced like everything else with the Silverleaf.

One never knows what will happen in the future. Remember the inverter companies that Xantrex swallowed up and then a French company bought them. Magnum and Outback started up as the result of Xantrex takeover.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

What you describe sounds like a custom battery monitor that is feed by a shunt that in turn feeds the Silverleaf as a display device. The Technomadia couple who built a custom Lithium system in their bus stressed that not having a battery monitor is like driving a car without a gas gauge. The shunt will see everything going in and out of the battery bank.

Are you temped by the second level of 600 AH? I wonder what the bulk charge time to go from 20% to around 90% will be if the charging can exceed 300 plus amps. My understanding is that AGMs bulk stage ends around 80% but as an example the Smart Battery Lithium bulk charge ended over 90% with no penalty for not ever going to 100%.

.

I may have to relook at it. 400 ah is very close to the edge in what I thought I would need and now that I know it won't be a little more comfortable 440 ah I'll have to run through the calculations a little more closely. As long as I maintain my historical touring habits and driving frequently I feel a bit confident. Solar almost seems to be icing on the cake to me. Air conditioning was never much of a criteria other than very infrequent 1-2 hour middle of the day stops with a pet in the B when we can't open up the screens. That's another reason for the trip to Cleveland next week to learn more.

[booster]

Originally Posted by pattonsr

booster,

Technomadia had an article on the safety of their Lithium batteries that are used in RV's.

http://www.technomadia.com/2013/02/d...ithium-worries

Interesting article. That is the first I have heard of Boeing batteries being a different chemistry. It also was comparing to Lifepo4 batteries and said they were in the RVs.

The other stuff I have heard and read would indicate that the Lifepo4 are the safer of the two compared to Li-on. But it appears the RVs are using Li-on from what I have seen. I think there is still a lot of conflicting information out there.

[gerrym51]

I like reading technomadia but i have found when you read the articles is important. technology moves too fast. taking a technomadia article thats more than 6 mos. old as gospel is a mistake.

[pattonsr]

Advanced RV had a FAQ that discussed the lithium batteries they use (LiFePO4). Technomadia has over two years experience full timing with their LiFePO4 batteries using a Victron ($$$) inverter/charger. The Victron does load assist and was chosen since at the time no one else did load assist. Currently Magnum has a hybrid that does load assist like the old classic Trace.

FAQ I’m concerned about the safety of lithium iron batteries. What have you done to ensure the safety of the Advanced RV battery system?
Advanced RVs incorporate lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 batteries. There are nearly a dozen different types of lithium ion batteries, and the LiFePO4 type is among the safest. In order to catch fire, the batteries we use would need to be simultaneously punctured and exposed to direct flame, and the batteries will not continue to burn unless exposed to flame. Each of our batteries relies on internal circuitry that protects the cells from over discharge or overcharging. The system includes a battery temperature monitor. We have extensively researched our battery options and concluded that LiFePO4 batteries provide the highest level of safety and performance.

Please note, LiFePO4 batteries weigh slightly more than other lithium ion batteries with the same capacity.