A little deflated after the Aktiv test drive...

[GeorgeRa]

I have a sofa bed (a Rock and Roll Bed design style and not powered, OMG, not powered? ) with a completely unobstructed 16 Cu Ft of storage under the bed. It is very comfortable for night or day. Bed has 3 panels with about 5.5” – 6” custom foam for each panel. The front seating panel is designed for seating and 2 back panels for sleeping.

I think most sofa beds can be customized for comfort for sleeping and seating if angles are correct. The most bank for the buck could be using Froli springs. During my design stage in 2013 they were just getting into NA and since I noticed some professional outfitters are using them. For 3 panels bed it would be difficult to have bed springs without an evident impact of panel joints so flat plywood or equivalent + Froli + existing foam + modified upholstery could make any bed a comfortable one. I decided to stay with foam because my upholstery shop was uneasy with unknown then Froli. Froli Sleep Systems by Nickle Atlantic, LLC

[avanti]

One of the great things about the GWV (and now also ARV) trifold sofa beds is that they are completely clear-span underneath. They are attached ONLY via rails on the sides of the van. Huge storage space underneath.

As for bumpy rides in the back: Don't underestimate this. It can be truly awful. Sprinters in particular are not good in this regard. Some people go to great lengths (and vast expense) with their suspensions to try to fix it. Don't know how successful they are.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

One of the great things about the GWV (and now also ARV) trifold sofa beds is that they are completely clear-span underneath. They are attached ONLY via rails on the sides of the van. Huge storage space underneath.

As for bumpy rides in the back: Don't underestimate this. It can be truly awful. Sprinters in particular are not good in this regard. Some people go to great lengths (and vast expense) with their suspensions to try to fix it. Don't know how successful they are.

For our 144WB bouncing on the sofa/bed is not existing. The reason is that we did the conversion on 2500 Passenger van with different rear springs than cargo vans.

[booster]

I know I was one of several that mentioned the rear bouncing on the vans, and it certainly is true. MB would not be selling a near $10k conversion to fix it if it wasn't a big deal.

We don't ride in the back, so that isn't an issue, but with out Chevy we always have gotten a very sharp hit, and even a banging noise, when we would go over the right kind of bumps. The bridges where the roadway had settled a bit at the entry and exit are the worst. We were able to make it better by lifting the rear higher with the airbags, so concluded that the hit and noise were coming from big bumps "slapping" the huge overload spring leaf against the rest of the springpack.

We couldn't just remove the big overload leaf as it was required to limit the travel of the axle because the airbags replace the over travel bumpers for the axle (which were pretty wimpy anyway). With the overload out and no over travel stop a bag failure could get pretty ugly.

When Airlift came out out with the same airbags we have, but with a beehive urethane overload bumper built into the inside of the airbag itself, it appeared that might be our solution. I decided to give it a try and see.

I put in new airbags with the built in overload bumpers and removed the overload leafs from the rear springs. The airbags still support a large part of the weight as they always did so the springs are not overloaded. On big bumps, the internal bumper in the bags picks up the extra load and protects everything. By having the overload leafs gone, we are able to run the rear a bit lower and closer to level with the front.

What we found in driving is that the rear did get much less harsh and noisy, in more conditions than we expected, so most of the time. This would say, I think, that the overload leaf was contacting the main springpack much more often than we realized. The rear feels much "softer" now, but not in a handling sense as that didn't change. Instead of harsh, quick, movements, we seem to get slower, smoother, movements. I think carrying the load variations more on the airbags, and their internal bumpers, and off the big overload leafs and normal leaf springs, we have a lot less springrate progression and a better match with the Bilstein shock damping rate. The entire van runs smoother and quieter, we think, so it is also likely that some of the noise and vibration we thought was from the front was being generated in the rear.

We have only had the change in for a couple of trips, maybe 10K miles, but it appears to have been a big improvement with no downside that we have noticed.

I don't know if similar things could be done to other brands of vans, but it worked well and was pretty easy for our 07 Chevy.

[indoorsy]

I feel quite fortunate to have all your help. Taking it all very seriously and trying not to give up on the idea all together on the idea of buying a Class B.

I guess if I order my priorities - they are:

(1) At least three seatbelts
(2) Prefer no carsick passengers (so seats closer to front are better or at least a seat, such as the Aktiv 2.0 with two belts but really for one person).
(3) Prefer comfy/roomy sleeping for at least two (for the amount of time I think my daughter and a friend would join us, I'm willing to let go of having 3/4 comfy sleeping positions. We can bring a tent and air mattress to set up outside the van (probably won't go through the trouble of pulling a small tear drop, there's a limit to what I want to maintain).
(4) Prefer gas over diesel for the aforementioned reasons you've all stated, although I like the idea of the better mileage and better hauling ability of diesel.
(5) Prefer a cassette toilet but I'll deal with what I get - not making this a deal breaker situation.
(6) Prefer a compressor fridge - does not need to be big
(7) Prefer a layout with limited tall cabinets and especially not behind the driver's seat - makes me feel claustrophobic - would prefer the tall cabinets on one side not both - don't need a pantry or wardrobe cabinet, don't need an eye level fridge or mw especially when that means more tall cabinets. Would prefer less storage and more windows.
( NEED screen door / would love on both the sliding door and the back. This means A LOT to me.
(9) Used or New is fine but would prefer something with a reasonable reputation for quality. Would prioritize quality over price but there's a limit to what i want to spend.

I've been looking at used models on RVTrader as I learn from all of you about what you don't like, what you've learned you wouldn't opt for again. So as I learn, what I look for has changed.

I reached out to the owner of this:
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/201...7#emailSection

It has four seats upfront which I like. It has the living room set up at the back, which I like, particularly since it wouldn't be needed for driving. It has tall cabinets on just one side and not directly behind the driver's seat (big preference for me and what eliminates most of the Roadtrek's for me). It has diesel, not my preference but as I am finding you can't find a unicorn.

I'd have to go to Florida to look at it. Not really a problem, I like Florida.
Thoughts?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

I know I was one of several that mentioned the rear bouncing on the vans, and it certainly is true. MB would not be selling a near $10k conversion to fix it if it wasn't a big deal.

We don't ride in the back, so that isn't an issue, but with out Chevy we always have gotten a very sharp hit, and even a banging noise, when we would go over the right kind of bumps. The bridges where the roadway had settled a bit at the entry and exit are the worst. We were able to make it better by lifting the rear higher with the airbags, so concluded that the hit and noise were coming from big bumps "slapping" the huge overload spring leaf against the rest of the springpack.

We couldn't just remove the big overload leaf as it was required to limit the travel of the axle because the airbags replace the over travel bumpers for the axle (which were pretty wimpy anyway). With the overload out and no over travel stop a bag failure could get pretty ugly.

When Airlift came out out with the same airbags we have, but with a beehive urethane overload bumper built into the inside of the airbag itself, it appeared that might be our solution. I decided to give it a try and see.

I put in new airbags with the built in overload bumpers and removed the overload leafs from the rear springs. The airbags still support a large part of the weight as they always did so the springs are not overloaded. On big bumps, the internal bumper in the bags picks up the extra load and protects everything. By having the overload leafs gone, we are able to run the rear a bit lower and closer to level with the front.

What we found in driving is that the rear did get much less harsh and noisy, in more conditions than we expected, so most of the time. This would say, I think, that the overload leaf was contacting the main springpack much more often than we realized. The rear feels much "softer" now, but not in a handling sense as that didn't change. Instead of harsh, quick, movements, we seem to get slower, smoother, movements. I think carrying the load variations more on the airbags, and their internal bumpers, and off the big overload leafs and normal leaf springs, we have a lot less springrate progression and a better match with the Bilstein shock damping rate. The entire van runs smoother and quieter, we think, so it is also likely that some of the noise and vibration we thought was from the front was being generated in the rear.

We have only had the change in for a couple of trips, maybe 10K miles, but it appears to have been a big improvement with no downside that we have noticed.

I don't know if similar things could be done to other brands of vans, but it worked well and was pretty easy for our 07 Chevy.

I had similar experience with our Bigfoot trailer. Added airbags to work together with leaf springs in hope to soften suspension and be able to level side to side by air. Resulted in side to side 3” levelling by a switch and considerable softening in suspension at low airbags pressure. I used an USB accelerometer (GCDC X16-1D Usb-Accelerometer 3-axis Data Recorder) on a fixed route to experiment with airbag pressures, see the chart. At 15PSI it took an edge from both progressive air and leaf springs. Handling was improved and stuff and drawers inside stooped flying.

[indoorsy]

GeorgeRa and Booster,
I hope to one day have even an inkling of understanding what you're talking about! One must walk before they can run (I'm still crawling!)... Glad to hear there is some fix for making the back more comfortable for the mechanically inclined.

[SteveJ]

Regarding number 7 and the eye level fridge, ours is not eye level but it is also not on the floor. I much prefer this rather than having to almost lay on the floor or go down on all fours to dig stuff out of the fridge. Just MHO.

[booster]

Not surprising you saw the improvements, too, as it seems to be pretty common.

I think the big thing that may be changed at this point, is the bags with the bump stop in them, so you always get a "soft landing" on even huge bumps. The normal bags have a stop, but it is a hard stop, so very harsh.

The whole idea of what we did brings up some interesting questions for all brands with leaf springs in the rear, it the new style bags are available.

The rear leaf spring pack does two basic things. First and foremost is that it supports the rear weight of the van. Second is that they spring packs work as trailing arms to guide the axle in an arc around the front spring support bushing, and also support the axle against side to side motion as there is no track bar.

Since air springs almost always give a smoother ride, it may make sense to move quite a bit of weight off the leaf springs and put it on the airbags instead. To do that you would remove some of the capacity of the springpack by removing or making thinner the leafs in the springpack. The Airlift airbags are rated for 5000#, so they are capable of carrying nearly all the rear weight of most of our vans. The big question is at what point of removing leafs from the springpacks does the springpack get too weak to perform it guiding function properly? It may be mute as we have seen a noticeable improvement by just removing the big overload leaf which wasn't even touching the rest of the pack when sitting and didn't connect to the spring eyes so no guiding. The no guiding in ours made it a non safety issue to remove the overload in ours. I am sure there is a point where getting too much weight on the airbags would make the back feel floaty like Greyhound bus, the question is just where that point is.

I just looked at the Airlift site, and they do make a Promaster airbag kit with the internal bumpstops now. The install instructions show them removing huge factory bumpstops on the axle which had to be functioning like a Timbren overload setup. If that big factory stop was contacting in normal driving it would be giving fairly high spring rate to the rear. By removing that stop and supporting the weight with airbags, I would expect the rear ride to get quite a bit better even without a leaf removal.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

GeorgeRa and Booster,
I hope to one day have even an inkling of understanding what you're talking about! One must walk before they can run (I'm still crawling!)... Glad to hear there is some fix for making the back more comfortable for the mechanically inclined.

I've been RVing since 2004 and I know better than to even try to understand when these guys wade into the weeds of mechanical or technical stuff. LOL

I checked out the Airstream link. It looks nice, but I would warn you that Airstream has also had some problems with QC. It is not the same company that built those old trailers we all knew. I have no idea how the 2014 year of this model scored in that area. It looks to be close to 25 feet long. You might as well be looking at the Leisure Travel Rigs with their known quality. It looks good, but what if you get to Florida and find that it isn't what you think it is.

But then I am admittedly not a fan of Sprinters. Too many of my friends have had very bad luck with them and they are scary expensive to repair.

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I've been RVing since 2004 and I know better than to even try to understand when these guys wade into the weeds of mechanical or technical stuff. LOL

Glad to know I'm not alone!

Re: the airstream - yes, I had heard that as well. When I was looking at the Alto TT, I had been looking at Airstream first which is how I learned about the Safari Condos. I read a lot on the Airforums about various problems, quality concerns...

So, I learned that I'd need a 2015 of newer to get screen doors. I guess the 2014.5 got an upgraded chassis including (vis a vis Colonial Airstream's awesome website:

2014 Mercedes Sprinter Chassis Upgrade
NEW FEATURES

Exterior - New Front Exterior (new hood, fenders, radiator grill, bumpers, headlights)^
Exterior - New Xenon Headlights*^
Exterior - New Headlight Washer System*^
Exterior – New Alcoa DuraBright® Forged Aluminum Wheels*
Exterior - New Larger Redesigned Driver and Passenger Entry Step
Safety - New Headlight High Beam Assist System*^
Safety – New Lane Keeping Assist System*^
Safety – New Collision Prevention Assist System*^
Interior – New Premium Plank Style Flooring*
Interior – New Magic Suede Material on Walls & Trim (more durable and stain resistant)*
Cockpit – New Steering Wheel and Controls (enhanced appearance and thicker)^
Cockpit – New Gear Shift Control (enhanced appearance and includes MB logo)^
Components/Systems – New 22” Samsung TVs (replaces 19”)*
Components/Systems – New Samsung Blu-Ray Player (replaces DVD player)*
Components/Systems – New Highly Advanced Kenwood Multimedia System*
Service –New Maintenance Intervals (15,000 miles instead of 10,000 miles)^


----

Speaking of Colonial Airstream, they have a 2013 at about $88k, maybe I could add the screen doors as an aftermarket thing?.

There is one in Maine for sale (close by) but it doesn't have the two seats up front which means it has tall cabinets behind the driver's seat which are longer than when you have the two seats. Feels claustrophobic to me ... seems to be a deal breaker to me to turn the front seat into a tall obstruction - I know there are others who feel so differently about this...

This one in Georgia (closer than Florida!) has the interior colors I would pick myself (I prefer a lighter interior, seems to open it up a bit) and the layout but it is a 2016 at $109K. Not sure I want to pay that much for a used RV.
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/201...8#emailSection

One thing about these is it has the dually situation that many feel is a problem. I was thinking it would make the van feel more stable in winds on the highway - I think I'd lean toward dealing with the problems/expense to feel more sturdy on the road. Especially since I do want to go cross country down the road (probably after a couple seasons of local travel to get up to speed)

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by mumkin

It looks to be close to 25 feet long. You might as well be looking at the Leisure Travel Rigs with their known quality.

I still think I prefer the normal width vehicle but you make a good point, started out thinking the smallest thing to get the job done as driving on the highway is a concern for me. Whatever minimizes the wind impact would be helpful. I don't know if the extra length is an issue?

I updated my RV comparison graphic to include the Airstream against some of the other choices.

Here it is:

https://ibb.co/d0spYb

[jon]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

I still think I prefer the normal width vehicle but you make a good point, started out thinking the smallest thing to get the job done as driving on the highway is a concern for me. Whatever minimizes the wind impact would be helpful. I don't know if the extra length is an issue?

I drive my Sprinter 144" daily in town and I think for everyday driving and parking I find my 19'4" length about the max that I would want to maneuver.
The Promaster 159 EB is 19'8". To me that would be the sweet spot for maneuverability.
I want to see a Aktiv 1.0 with a power sofa. That would be my idea layout.

[booster]

Originally Posted by jon

I drive my Sprinter 144" daily in town and I think for everyday driving and parking I find my 19'4" length about the max that I would want to maneuver.
The Promaster 159 EB is 19'8". To me that would be the sweet spot for maneuverability.
I want to see a Aktiv 1.0 with a power sofa. That would be my idea layout.

It would be interesting to see if you would notice the difference from 144"wb to 159"wb. That is probably enough that it might make some tighter maneuvers less possible.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jon

I drive my Sprinter 144" daily in town and I think for everyday driving and parking I find my 19'4" length about the max that I would want to maneuver.
The Promaster 159 EB is 19'8". To me that would be the sweet spot for maneuverability.
I want to see a Aktiv 1.0 with a power sofa. That would be my idea layout.

I second that, in comparison to my experience of driving F350/Ext. Cab/Long bed the 144”WB Sprinter is almost like driving a passenger car on city roads and parking.

[jon]

Originally Posted by booster

It would be interesting to see if you would notice the difference from 144"wb to 159"wb. That is probably enough that it might make some tighter maneuvers less possible.

After a quick web search I came up with:

Promaster 159 Turning radius - Curb to Curb (ft) 46.83.6
Sprinter 144 Turning radius (ft) Wall To Wall 47.6

I think they have basically the same turning radius.

Of course, the Promaster 159" WB would be essentially the same but have an extra foot hanging on the back.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jon

After a quick web search I came up with:

Promaster 159 Turning radius - Curb to Curb (ft) 46.83.6
Sprinter 144 Turning radius (ft) Wall To Wall 47.6

I think they have basically the same turning radius.

Of course, the Promaster 159" WB would be essentially the same but have an extra foot hanging on the back.

Check here, MB Curb to Curb is 44.6', so MB is edge better, perhaps not noticeable but on highway the Promaster longer wheel base could be noticeably better. https://www.mbvans.com/sprinter/comm...vans/cargo-van

[NAZCamperVan]

Indoorsy, Here's another unit that could fit your needs. Leisure Travel Van Free Spirit TE on Sprinter 3500. These are no longer made, and I don't think LTV made many TE's with 2 seats behind the front seats. The unit sleeps 2; extra passengers could tent. Here's one listed on RVTrader.
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/201...-TE-5000320050
LTV's are quality units.

[<<B-Guy>>]

As for length, we have yet to buy, but I seem to be settling on the philosophy that "Long enough to have the features and storage capacity that we really need, but in the interest of optimum handling and parking, no longer. "

For us, I think that puts us in the 21-23 ft range.

Brian.

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by NAZCamperVan

Indoorsy, Here's another unit that could fit your needs. Leisure Travel Van Free Spirit TE on Sprinter 3500. These are no longer made, and I don't think LTV made many TE's with 2 seats behind the front seats. The unit sleeps 2; extra passengers could tent. Here's one listed on RVTrader.
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/201...-TE-5000320050
LTV's are quality units.

WOW! that's pretty amazing. The layout is nearly identical to the Airstream option and I love that. Now, I wonder why the miles are so low? under 5k in a 2014. What? seems odd. Wish it weren't 3000 miles away. I am going to add this to my watch out list for something a little closer. I don't love flying (hence wanting the van)... If I can drive to see something all the better. If I have to fly, would appreciate not cross country. I appreciate you calling this to my attention. It has the same 170" wheel base as the Airstream. I'm not sure if that's good or bad? It is probably both depending on your needs.