98-03 Dodge? Check your frame (front Axle to Bumper)!

[Turbowhiz]

It’s a well-known weakness of the last variant (98-03) of the venerable Dodge Vans that the frames can really rust badly. Really badly. Specifically, the forward section between the front axle and the bumper. The ultimate failure scenario involves components of your steering breaking off (typically but not limited to the steering box) the severely corroded forward frame section. Just google “dodge ram van frame rust”.

This rust seems to manifest even in vans that in other aspects don’t have any serious signs of corrosion, and it seems that the final design variant (98-03) of these vans have this problem in particular.

If you have a 98-03 Dodge chassis Van, do yourself a favor, and remove your bumper/brackets and check out the INSIDES of these forward frame sections. They are super easily accessible, and you might be surprised what you find. These guys most definitely are rusting inside out, and it can look good on the outside but be pretty badly corroded on the inside, and if your start seeing trouble on the outside it’s too late for sure.

My story goes like this:

When I bought my 1999 Van 5 years ago, I had a pretty good look at it before I purchased it. I didn’t purchase it from the original owner, so have only 2nd hand information on its entire history, but in general the condition van with respect to rust was not Nevada desert perfectly clean but certainly very good. I had it on a lift and had a good look underneath. Apparently the story of the original owner was it spent winters in Florida and summers in the Nova Scotia, where the van was originally purchased. So no guarantees it never saw any winter weather, but it wasn’t likely seeing a whole lot. In either case it could have seen a bit of salty ocean air possibly too.

Now, by far the worse looking part of the whole vehicle was the front frame section… It definitely was showing signs of rust where the rest of the van looked really clean. Not really bad, but some noticeable rust nonetheless. I bought it anyway, as I didn’t find the rust condemning. The rust appeared only along the seams of the forward unibody frame extension. I whacked at the frame with a hammer, and it was solid.

To compound significantly the rust problem, the van seemed to have suffered a much worse problem with respect to the chassis battery boiling over. Now this is not a good thing, and especially not a good thing on these 98-03 Dodges. If your chassis battery boils, acid will can very easily find its way to the weakest part of the van, namely the front frame section right where the steering box attaches.

I immediately addressed the battery issue when I bought the van (once I discovered that it was happening on my trip home). It was simply a bad house battery causing the chassis battery to overcharge, causing it boil over. I replaced all the batteries, and I’ve not had any more battery boiling issues, as I’ve monitored it very carefully. No doubt in RV applications, this would not be an entirely rare circumstance, so always pay attention to your battery condition and monitor for this problem, because if your chassis battery boils over and you don’t catch it right away, the damage could be significant in the weakest part of the vehicle.

I’ve had the van for 5 years, never winter driving it and storing it inside 6 months of the year for the winter (being in Ontario). Since I’ve owned the van, the rust really hasn’t appreciably gotten worse. But that said, it’s certainly doing nothing less than getting worse, albeit slowly, because that’s just the nature of rust. The chassis battery boil over damaged components of the brake system, which are immediately below the battery. The brake line between the proportioning valve and the RWAL valve was particularly crusty looking. So rather then tempt fate, I got finally into fixing everything up these past few weeks. I knew it was going to be a project, but I didn’t appreciate exactly what I was going to find.

These front frame sections WITHOUT A DOUBT RUST INSIDE-OUT. Mine looked okay on the outside. They outward manifestation of the rust is was only on the seams… The frames are made from two U stamped sections that are joined together to form a box and then welded at points, with a seam on the top and the bottom. The top seam showed a little rust, the bottom seam showed more. Just on the seam edges and the welds basically. My frame looked nothing like the numerous bad examples you can find just by searching “Ram van frame rust”. No outward manifestation of holes, or missing support sections, or alike.

Now it turns out you can actually very easily access the inside of the forward frame section from the front of the van. All you need to do is to remove the front bumper, and then bumper brackets. Its 6 bolts for the bumper, and another 8 bolts for the brackets. I HIGHLY recommend anyone with a 98-03 Dodge van to remove their front bumper and inspect the inside of the front frame sections. It takes minutes to get it off and it’s a very worthwhile exercise for anyone with one of these vans. I wanted to remove my bumper not for any other reason than to paint the plastic section on the top, which was looking awfully nasty after 20 years of sun. Boy am I glad I did!

What I found was pretty shocking… The inside of the frame section was definitely showing significant signs of corrosion, especially on the drivers side. I’m assuming in my case the driver’s side was made worse because of the battery damage, but the passenger side wasn’t exactly pretty either. Seems that moisture makes its way into the forward part of the frame, and it sits there, as there really isn’t any easy way for it to escape. And it RUSTS. Presumably the moisture makes its way into the frame via the front end behind the bumper. My bumper had collected lots of rocks and crud in the bottom of it, and it was also showing signs of a fair bit of rust too. You can’t easily see this, as there is a plastic baffle that sits in that section between the bumper and the crossmember behind it.

The first thing I did was literally vacuum out the crap out of the inside of the frame. Lots of flakey rust chunks combined with the original factory primer sort of coating. And whatever other crud had managed to make its way inside the frame, but it was lots of crap. Mostly flakey remnants of frame to be honest. All really good at holding moisture, enviably speeding up the rusting. But it’s easy to clean out, access is good and you can get the crap out of the front frame section easily.

I then took a new wooden handled wire brush, screwed a length of dowel to it so I could wire brush out the entire inside of the front frame section, and wire brushed the inside of the frame, getting any loose chunks of frame coating and rusty metal out. Re-vacuumed it again, repeated until I was satisfied the thing was as clean as I could get it. I then took note if the driver’s side frame extension needed some welding or not, as it was deeply pitted in spots, and in the very front it had developed a few pinholes right through the metal on the bottom (there is a dip that likely collects water) After some good hammering, it seemed to be solid enough… No need to weld, no imminent steering component failure. However if it had gotten much worse it probably would have needed surgery.

I then coated in the inside of the frame with por-15 (silver). This was done with screwing a paint brush to the same dowel I used for the wire brush. I was then able to adequately coat the entire inside of the front frame. There are numerous options of products for rust treatment, pick your favorite, but I wanted to take a two-prong approach, namely coat and then put some sort of rust-preventative oil product on. Obviously the first step is to paint it… So I went through the degrease/prep/coat approach with por-15, as it’s a product I’ve used in the past and had good luck with.

Once I coated the inside of the frame I also coated the outside of the frame extensions, which is quite a bit more work than the inside to be honest. I inspected the inside of the frame extension behind the front axle with an inspection camera, and its condition inside was nothing at all like the front, so clearly something is happening that introduces a LOT of moisture to the forward part of the frame ahead of the axle that doesn’t spread past it. Its significantly harder to reach this section of the frame to coat it internally, but it’s easy enough to oil.

Then top-coated the outside as the Por-15 stuff is UV sensitive. Once I was done with the paint, I treated the whole thing with Krown, which is a rust proofing oil type product. It is super easy to get it in the exposed front frame section with the bumper off.

So now my front frame section is as rust resistant as I can make it. I’ll monitor is closely, but I’m confident that it’s as fixed as it can be at this point. Between the Por15/and Krown, it’s much better protected now then it ever has been. That said, I’ll be taking the bumper off again every season to confirm that my repairs are holding up.

98-03 Dodge owners, pull your bumpers off and check, you might be thankful you did. At the very least, you can clean out the frame sections and be confident that all is good. Or, you can clean out the moisture holding corrosion damage and determine if you need to do more to protect things.

[booster]

Frame rot, or any heavy rusting inside sections of frame or unibody areas is a nasty thing to deal with as actually stopping the rust once it starts is very difficult. The rust normally started in the seams and weld areas where there was little or no protection and there was a good place to trap moisture. Door bottom hems are a good example, also.


I have never had very good luck with any of the rust stopping products in those areas, as all they can do is get the visible areas and won't get to the rust in the seams and other lapped over areas. On open surfaces, the products work much better.


I have found that in non visible areas like frames and underbodies that using an oil product of some kind works the best, even drain oil or transmission fluid. The oils will penetrate the heavier rust, soaking in and staying in place to prevent water from getting in and doing the same saturation and causing more rust. The oil will also lay in any low spots to prevent water entering them. It is very common to spray the oil inside a frame or boxed body section and a few hours later find it has found it's way through flanges and seams to the outside of the area confirming all the rust in the seam is soaked with oil. As a final protection, I like to use LPS3 which is an oil product that carries a heavy waxy component and semi dries on the surface. It is similar to the old Cosmolene we would see on metal machines to protect them in shipping, but a bit softer and more self healing.


The Canadian rust proofing products like Crown, Rust Check, etc basically do it in a similar way, and are made to be applied every few years. They figured out a long time ago that getting material penetrated into the areas were rust starts and hides is very important and have addressed it well.

[Turbowhiz]

No doubt, the “rust oil” is the most effective option for this sort of stuff, largely because there are so many spots that are unreachable. That’s why I oiled it with Krown too. However, since the inside of the front frame extensions are so easily accessible, the principle corrosion area actually is very easy to get to with Por15, and I’m confident it’s going to help there. And it was my only chance (cause once I oiled it, it wasn’t getting coated ever…). And just oiling it without cleaning out the crap would have been far less effective.

I’d suggest everyone with one of these vans to oil the front frame extension no matter what its condition. And by far the easiest way to do that is to remove the bumper, which will give you a super clear view of the true condition of the inside of the frame extension and give you a chance to clean it out if necessary. A Krown shop won’t typically do that… They will drill holes in doors and rockers to get oil in there, but don’t typically get into too much take apart (i.e. removing the bumper)

(I’ve used Krown for years on my daily drivers, it works. 1992 Toyota corolla survived Ontario winters with the stuff long after others had rusted to nothing… Was only off the road after an accident not rust)

The outside covering was largely just a cosmetic exercise…. Since I was going to apply oil, my only chance to paint it (as cleaning the Krown for paint prep is miserable!) was now. The whole mess is Krown’d inside and out. Technically it’s an annual application.

The forward frame extensions on these 98-03’s seem to be getting exposed to an excess amount of moisture as a function of some sort of design defect; Why I’m not 100% certain, its either making its way in through the open end of the frame extension on the front of the van (I’m guess this is it) when being driven in wet conditions, or through the largish hole in the side close to the wheel under similar circumstances. What’s clear is that it gets in, and stays there, as there are no holes anywhere on the bottom side of the frame extension to let it out.

When I inspected the same frame extension behind the front axle (it’s the same stamping, one continuous piece of metal) using an inspection camera the condition inside the frame extension was good. You wouldn’t think it’s the same piece from the same vehicle if you were to compare them. (of course I oiled that section with Krown too..). I’ve never seen a report of the frame actually failing there, it’s always the front part where the steering attaches that fails. And my observations of my own van’s frame is no different.

From all appearances these frame extensions are rusting specifically on the bottom inside surface from the inside out; All of the pitting was on the bottom, not on the sides or top. Notably yes, the bottom is technically two pieces of metal, overlapping. But the rust is emergent on the inside surface down, not from between the sections. This is clearly evident by the pitting (rather than bubbling up from the seam…)

[booster]

I think it may be very possible that the front frame material was changed with that series. If they went to high strength steel to reduce weight or meet collision standards, that in itself could cause the problems. Most high strength steels corrode much faster than the mild steels.

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by booster

I have found that in non visible areas like frames and underbodies that using an oil product of some kind works the best, even drain oil or transmission fluid. The oils will penetrate the heavier rust, soaking in and staying in place to prevent water from getting in and doing the same saturation and causing more rust. The oil will also lay in any low spots to prevent water entering them. . . . As a final protection, I like to use LPS3 which is an oil product that carries a heavy waxy component and semi dries on the surface..

Booster - Old post, I know, but are you suggesting just coating the inside of the frame rails with ordinary transmission fluid and spraying LPS3 over that? If that would work, it seems like it would be much better than trying to paint in there, even though I imagine it would have to be reapplied every so often.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RT-NY

Booster - Old post, I know, but are you suggesting just coating the inside of the frame rails with ordinary transmission fluid and spraying LPS3 over that? If that would work, it seems like it would be much better than trying to paint in there, even though I imagine it would have to be reapplied every so often.

IMO, trying to paint the insides or frame sections will not address any current corrosion in the seams and will do nothing for those seems in the future because it will bridge them, crack, and change nothing. Plus, how do you clean the inside for good adhesion in the first place?


You don't concentrate on coating the surfaces just put in enough to settle into the low spots especially where there are seams, especially pinched and stopwelded ones. And spray of all other seams to get some oil soaking into them.


The LPS three is also and oil base and will also go into the seams a bit but is quite thick so not as well as oil, thus the oil first especially is you have any existing rust like most do. The LPS3 will dry, mostly, but leave a self healing waxy surface. It will also adhere and coat the rest of the interior of the frame surfaces if sprayed on them. It won't wear off quickly inside the frame. On the non interior parts of the underbody it will wear off in a couple of years or more depending on the conditions and you can just spray it again and it will stick to whats left without issue unless it is very dirty.


Be aware it is flammabel vapor and stinks a lot so very, very good ventilation and a paint spray/oil vapor mask should be used and have a sheet of plastic or carboard underneath to catch overspray and drips, and it may drip for a couple days and then a bit more the first couple times out in hot summer heat.


The other option is to take it to Rust Check or Crown and have them spray the insides. Your call on the rest of the body like inside the doors and such and on surfaces. They work well and need periodic checks and touch up, but work well. Be aware that Rust Check in particular will coat the exposed surface with a slime that the holds dirt and will mess you up a lot if you do your own work on it. Our 07 is the only vehicle we have had done with it, probably 5 years ago and I still curse it once the exposed areas under body because I come out a mess. Haven't had Crown, but it said to be not as bad. Regulary tary undercoating type rust proofing doesn't work well in the frame cavities because it doesn't get into the seams.

[RT-NY]

Thanks!! I think I will give this a try. Is transmission fluid preferable to, say, 10w30 motor oil or some other kind of oil?

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by Turbowhiz

If you have a 98-03 Dodge chassis Van, do yourself a favor, and remove your bumper/brackets and check out the INSIDES of these forward frame sections. They are super easily accessible, and you might be surprised what you find. . . . Now it turns out you can actually very easily access the inside of the forward frame section from the front of the van. All you need to do is to remove the front bumper, and then bumper brackets. Its 6 bolts for the bumper, and another 8 bolts for the brackets.

I was just re-reading this old thread because I linked to it in response to a recent post. I wanted to add a note that, while the main frame rail is easily accessible, Dodges of this era also have a short side extension to the rail near the front of the vehicle (it forms kind of a y-shape) which is of thinner steel and also susceptible to rust but is recessed inside the cross-member and so hard to see and not easily accessible at all, but which also should be checked carefully.

[ClassBLiving]

I believe it is actually mid 1994 - 2003 when they changed the design.
I have a 1984 that has the same frame but no rust.

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by ClassBLiving

I believe it is actually mid 1994 - 2003 when they changed the design.
I have a 1984 that has the same frame but no rust.

Do you have any information or schematics of that y-shaped frame? I have not been able to find anything: all the frame schematics I have seen, including in the factory service manual, do not have that y-extension on the side. And it seems rather odd to me. I can't see how the y-extension to the side serves much of a structural purpose - it is thin steel and short and just welded onto the main frame. And it itself is bolted to the cross-member so I do not think it is bearing any weight.

[ClassBLiving]

Originally Posted by RT-NY

Do you have any information or schematics of that y-shaped frame? I have not been able to find anything: all the frame schematics I have seen, including in the factory service manual, do not have that y-extension on the side. And it seems rather odd to me. I can't see how the y-extension to the side serves much of a structural purpose - it is thin steel and short and just welded onto the main frame. And it itself is bolted to the cross-member so I do not think it is bearing any weight.

I don't have schematics but that piece has to be there for a reason.

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by booster

It is very common in some of the older body on frame cars that use gearbox/idler arm type steering to want to improve steering response and handling... What is typically done is to make the very front crossmember that is under the radiator typically less likely to be moving side to side because of flexing the frame extensions that it is connected to. It will move back and forth due to the heavy side loads of hard cornering with big tires...

Those braces don't have to be very heavy. They don't carry any weight at all and will have flanges on them to be very strong in compression and tension. When triangulated onto the frame the make that area very much stronger for the side to side loads and stop the side to side movement of the crossmember, steering gear, and often idler arm to remove steering response and accuracy.

Yes, I was guessing that it was that kind of lateral support. I attached the one picture I was able to find online. You can see the left side where is has a support bracket welded onto it, which I think may be related to the steering box support. Though I do not think that the steering box itself is connected to that bracket, but I would need to take a closer look to be sure.

Originally Posted by booster

That is my guess as to what those braces do. I think those changes that were made back then were to lighten the weight of the van to improve load capacity by using thinner, maybe high strength, steel in the structure. High strength and thinner both tend to rust out faster than plain mild steel does and it is worse if they put in some shapes that trap dirt and water.

Yes, the steel on the main frame is, I think, 1/8, but I think that side extension is just 1/16. Plus, they are recessed into the crossmember which is closed off with 1/16 sheet metal (cut off in the image, but just a bit to the left) to form a hollow that traps dirt and water. Plus it makes it hard to see what is going on in there so problems can go untreated.

Originally Posted by booster

Of course, they could just be there to support the front bumper against impact.

I think they do also support the wrap around bumber on both sides. There is a hole that you can see in the bottom bracket where the side y-extension bolts onto the cross member -- a hole in the same position on the top bracket (cut off in the image) is for a support bracket that connects to the bumper,

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by RT-NY

Yes, the steel on the main frame is, I think, 1/8, but I think that side extension is just 1/16. Plus, they are recessed into the crossmember which is closed off with 1/16 sheet metal (cut off in the image, but just a bit to the left) to form a hollow that traps dirt and water. Plus it makes it hard to see what is going on in there so problems can go untreated.

...and one other thing I wanted to mention, following up on my earlier post: unlike the main frame-rail which traverses the cross-member and is opened on the front end behind the bumper so it can be cleaned out and treated inside,these side y-extensions end a bit behind the cross-member and appear to be closed off at the end with some small drainage holes in the bottom corners, so you cannot easily see or get access to the inside of them.