6 Volt batteries

[booster]

Originally Posted by mkguitar

it's like tires


load range


load index


c'mon fellas!

Except load range and load index are the same thing, and there is a direct comparison chart for it.


Find a chart that will convert amps to amp hours. Can't happen unless they put a time period on it, also.


Just like miles and miles per hour. One is speed and one is distance and you can't convert one to the other without a time factor in it.

[GeorgeRa]

Acronyms of units, wrong in red.

Wh > Ah, wrong but accepted with assumption of 12V
Ah > Amps
Ah > Amps/hour
Wh/24 hours > W/24 hours (Indel/Webasto)
Power bill > [kW/month x $/kW] = $/month correct units, wrong name, it should be energy bill.

[booster]

Here is a Lifeline spec list for a GPL31T AGM from their website.





It shows cold crank amps, 20 hr amp hour rating, reserve power at various discharge rates. Everything is there and very clear and understandable.


Here is a spec list for an Intimidator deep cycle AGM battery from a sellers site.





It shows cranking amp at two places and reserve capacity at one place with no time put on it. There is virtually no way to determine what the actual deep cycle capacity of the "deep cycle" battery is because amp-hours at 20hrs or other time is not shown at all, and reserve capacity doesn't give a discharge time. Someone looking for an AMPS spec would say it is 900,580, or 185 amp battery. In reality, that will probably be about a 105ah battery in capacity at 20 hr rate. If they compare the AMPS from this chart to the AMP Hours on a some other given spec, thinking they are interchangeable, the other battery looks paltry.


This is exactly what happened with Roadtrek when they said, IIRC Zion, had a 400 amp battery. We had numerous people comparing new vans at the time say the Zion was better because of the 400 amp battery, as the others were all closer to 200 amp hours. In reality, the 400 amp battery was really a 185 amp hour battery, so not a good. They were stating reserve capacity IIRC.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

The problem is that you appear to be measuring battery storage capacity, the important part for camping, in AMPs, which is not possible. Especially the the gp31 will have a rating in AMPs, but it will cold cranking amps for starting. It might even be reserve amps, but then will have a time for those amps being used. It may or may not also have a rating in AMP HOURS, which would be the 20 hr rate you just now referred to and is the capacity.


Amps and amp hours are not the same thing as on measures instantaneous power and the other is how much power can be stored and used later.



The manufacturers started to use the terms interchangeably a few years ago, mostly to confuse people into not being able to accurately compare batteries, and of course to make theirs look better than they were. Roadtrek was a leader in this deception (previous owners, not current ones).


Obviously, that confusion has worked well, as we see this kind of confusion all the time now.

I understand (I think) what you have written above for the most part.

But the those 2 batteries I quoted I thought were both deep cycle battteries, not marine batteries, e.g. no cold cranking amps cited and one also had a 5 hour rate.

As you have mentioned in the past, are there any 12 volt deep cycle flooded batteries left? The Costco gp 12 volt Is, I think. But still the 2 6 volt batteries appear to be the best amp hour deal out there per $.

Please correct the above.

Bud

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Bud

I understand (I think) what you have written above for the most part.

But the those 2 batteries I quoted I thought were both deep cycle battteries, not marine batteries, e.g. no cold cranking amps cited and one also had a 5 hour rate.

As you have mentioned in the past, are there any 12 volt deep cycle flooded batteries left? The Costco gp 12 volt Is, I think. But still the 2 6 volt batteries appear to be the best amp hour deal out there per $.

Please correct the above.

Bud

https://www.costco.com/interstate-6-...100476406.html

https://www.costco.com/interstate-12...100476402.html

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

I understand (I think) what you have written above for the most part.

But the those 2 batteries I quoted I thought were both deep cycle battteries, not marine batteries, e.g. no cold cranking amps cited and one also had a 5 hour rate.

As you have mentioned in the past, are there any 12 volt deep cycle flooded batteries left? The Costco gp 12 volt Is, I think. But still the 2 6 volt batteries appear to be the best amp hour deal out there per $.

Please correct the above.

Bud

Those were both deep cycle batteries, but a lot of the 12v ones in particular leave off the amp hour capacity from the specs, and often don't give a time for the reserve power. See my example that I must have snuck in ahead of yours. This kind of confusion is why I always harp on keeping the the units right between amps and amp hours.


I think Trojan and Crown may both have real deep cycle batteries in 12v as they are also used in a lot of floor scrubbers.


I am on our second Costco/Intestate DC12 in the van as a starter. First was a gp27, current a gp24. They do carry an amp hour rating, now, but didn't always as I had to call them to find out in the past. Based on how they perform charging, rested voltage, and non water use they appear to be the traditional "marine", "combo starting/deep cycle" battery. Decent battery, but not for repeated discharge use in the coach IMO.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

Those were both deep cycle batteries, but a lot of the 12v ones in particular leave off the amp hour capacity from the specs, and often don't give a time for the reserve power. See my example that I must have snuck in ahead of yours. This kind of confusion is why I always harp on keeping the the units right between amps and amp hours.


I think Trojan and Crown may both have real deep cycle batteries in 12v as they are also used in a lot of floor scrubbers.


I am on our second Costco/Intestate DC12 in the van as a starter. First was a gp27, current a gp24. They do carry an amp hour rating, now, but didn't always as I had to call them to find out in the past. Based on how they perform charging, rested voltage, and non water use they appear to be the traditional "marine", "combo starting/deep cycle" battery. Decent battery, but not for repeated discharge use in the coach IMO.

Maybe I just don't get it, very confused, but I say the same. So if the examples I cited don't fit (especially the 2 6 volt), what is the best bang for the buck in 12 volt amp hours.

I do think a case for lithium can be made, depends on the scenario.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

Maybe I just don't get it, very confused, but I say the same. So if the examples I cited don't fit (especially the 2 6 volt), what is the best bang for the buck in 12 volt amp hours.

I do think a case for lithium can be made, depends on the scenario.

Your example is just fine, as long as what you referred to as amps was really the 20 hr amp hour reading and not one of the amp specs for other things, which I think it was because you later referred to a 20 hr rating.



The 12v stuff can get very shaky on finding the right ratings, and even some of the other batteries as well. A while ago I ran across a battery that looked to have managed to get to a very high amp hour rating and it was stated as amp hours. It was far enough better than other brand similar batteries that I contacted them for what amp hour rating time they were using. It took three tries, but they finally answered that the rating was at the 100 hr rate, which is always much higher. As it turned out the rating was really just average at best and not as high as high quality batteries.


There is lots of deception going on, I fear, in the marketplace so we all have to be very careful to get all right information when we do comparisons.

[booster]

As far as best bang for buck goes, the comparisons shown, eg amp hours/dollar are about all we have to go by many times. What messing those up is it one battery lasts longer than the other. If one last twice as long as the other, the actual cost of that one is cut in half, probably moving it to the top.


In wet cells it was a bit easier, as the 12v combo batteries (marine) tended to last about half of what high end 6v GC2 batteries would in general.


Personally, if we had one of the not too stellar OEM chargers in our B, I would probably go with relatively low end AGMs that others have had decent luck with. The poor charging is going to shorten life anyway so less risk, same with potential overcharging while driving. Lifelines and such might survive longer, but probably not long enough to cover the cost difference.


With the systems we have in the Roadtrek now, we are able to take care them well with very good charging, all the time, so it is well worth the extra price as they should last long enough to justify it.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by mkguitar

it's like tires


load range


load index


c'mon fellas!

For once, I got this one right.

Two kinds of people out there, The Humble & the soon to be Humbled.

I think Bud is joking with you Booster.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

For once, I got this one right.

Two kinds of people out there, The Humble & the soon to be Humbled.

I think Bud is joking with you Booster.

I'm was not.

Please cite a better battery for 12 volt amp hours per $ than the what I cited above - 2 deep cycle gc batteries.

[eric1514]

Originally Posted by Bud

I'm was not.

Please cite a better battery for 12 volt amp hours per $ than the what I cited above - 2 deep cycle gc batteries.

I don't think you'll do better. You're less than a dollar/Ah. If you keep them watered, plugged in and charged, even with a basic Progressive Dynamics converter, you'll get over 5 years out of them. I have.

[mkguitar]

Originally Posted by eric1514

keep them watered, plugged in and charged, ...over 5 years out of them. I have.

yes! just over 5 years on my interstate G27 12
It's in great shape
( ps free distilled water from ac condensate...this time of year mine makes 5 gallons a day- I always save some for batteries and radiators)


spent yesterday pulling, cleaning , measuring- really difficult to fit anything larger under my pleasure way- I may look at this again when my battery needs replacing

mike

[themexicandoctor]

That is a remarkable achievement!

[eric1514]

Originally Posted by mkguitar

yes! just over 5 years on my interstate G27 12
It's in great shape
( ps free distilled water from ac condensate...this time of year mine makes 5 gallons a day- I always save some for batteries and radiators)


spent yesterday pulling, cleaning , measuring- really difficult to fit anything larger under my pleasure way- I may look at this again when my battery needs replacing

mike

That's funny you should mention the water from the AC. Last week I went out to the garage and saw a lot of water on the garage floor. I had inadvertently loosened the PVC drain on the AC unit with my foot, I guess. While I was repairing it I was amazed at how much distilled water was being produced. I bottled some for the batteries.

[mkguitar]

Originally Posted by eric1514

I bottled some for the batteries.

with no chlorine or minerals- it will get funky over time- usually grows algae just from brief exposure to air

Can be frozen if you have freezer space


In AZ during the dry period to July I get zero condensate- it is only during monsoon season with 30% humidity that it really pours out

Our units are on the roof, I have drain pipe coming down into the yard.
Mike

[booster]

While water from an AC evaporator may be "distilled", it is not necessarily clean or ion free. Any dirts, salts, pollen, etc in the air or on the evaporator run off with the water. I have seen several warning from battery, antifreeze, and humidifiers about using AC condensate instead of distilled.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

While water from an AC evaporator may be "distilled", it is not necessarily clean or ion free. Any dirts, salts, pollen, etc in the air or on the evaporator run off with the water. I have seen several warning from battery, antifreeze, and humidifiers about using AC condensate instead of distilled.

I agree, distilled water is produced in a controlled environment, it can be consumed even though it is not good due to lack of minerals. I wouldn’t drink water from any AC.

[eric1514]

Originally Posted by mkguitar

with no chlorine or minerals- it will get funky over time- usually grows algae just from brief exposure to air

Can be frozen if you have freezer space


In AZ during the dry period to July I get zero condensate- it is only during monsoon season with 30% humidity that it really pours out

Our units are on the roof, I have drain pipe coming down into the yard.
Mike

Originally Posted by booster

While water from an AC evaporator may be "distilled", it is not necessarily clean or ion free. Any dirts, salts, pollen, etc in the air or on the evaporator run off with the water. I have seen several warning from battery, antifreeze, and humidifiers about using AC condensate instead of distilled.

Good to know.

[GallenH]

So I have a 100AH LifeLine AGM. I know that I can occasionally draw it down below 50% but probably not as a usual daily practice. So I basically have 50AH to go with. If I add another LifeLine I'd have 200AH total/ 100AH usable.

I believe (and I could be wrong...who would have guessed) that lithiums can be drawn down to 20% without any harm or problem. If I had 200AH of lithium I'd actually have 160AH usable, the equivalent of having 3 LifeLine 100AH AGMs.

If that is true.......outside of price and issues with the cold, why would one not buy 2 lithiums?

Just wondering.glenn