34+2=37 Another Lift Story

[rowiebowie]

I decided to start a new thread about my project to lift my '2012 Chevy 3500 Express-based Airstream Avenue. There are already a couple of recent companion threads here:
https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...90p-11245.html
https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...oth-11653.html

But my experience is a bit unique, so below is my story. My attempt was to raise the van a bit, not go too high like the Moog front coil spring problems experienced by others, and leave the ride quality unaffected.

I went with the 2" Supreme Suspensions lift kit consisting of Front Coil Spacer and Rear Leaf Lift Blocks (with rear shock extenders). Kit #A7798 https://supremesuspensions.com/colle...29122149711952
(Note: the rounded u-bolts are wrong for this kit. I found out the hard way and $60 later.)
The price is $349.99, but at the time they offered 20% off.

On jamesv999's suggestion, I went with Black Sumospring front bump stops #SSF-204-47 for $99.99 https://www.supersprings.com/instruc...SSF-204-47.pdf and yellow Sumospring rear bump stops #SSR-205-44 $234.99. https://www.supersprings.com/instruc...SSR-205-54.pdf
They too offered 20% off.

Except for them sending the wrong u-bolts, finding a local shop to install the parts, and pausing for Deep Freeze and its' aftermath, things went according to plan, until the actual install. . . .

Referencing back to my thread title 34" + 2" = 37". My 2" kit resulted in a 3" lift and the match doesn't add up.

My wheel arch heights were 34" (+/- 1/2") pre-lift. After the 2" lift the wheel arch heights are 37" (+/- 1/8"). A full 3" result up front, and a 2-1/2" to 2-3/4" rear result.

The front is a little tricky to judge as the coils spacers are 1", but by virtue of being inboard of the wheels, they were promised to be a 2" lift. I got a full 3".

The rear, however, is a straight up 2" block spacer between the axle and the leaf springs. How 2" blocks result in nearly 3" lift there is a head scratcher.

The van currently sits with the front sumo bump stops just barely touching (not enough to add any front lift on their own) and rear sumo bump stops sitting 1/2" to 3/4" above the rear axle (no contact). This is preferred and I did not want to affect ride qualitiy. Yet they will certainly come in contact more than the old (especially in the rear that previously never contacted).

So far, the lift doesn't seem too extreme, and if when I get the front end aligned it causes no problems, then I'm actually pleased with the extra inch(that's what she said ). But at this point I've only driven a few miles and nothing seems that different. Almost wonder if I would notice the higher climb-in height if somehow the lift had happened and I didn't know it. But I need to road test it. Perhaps next week I'll put a few hundred miles on it under various speeds and conditions.

I have taken pictures, but need to get them out of my phone. Will post them later.



EDIT: Labor costs for the install at Texas Truck Masters in Corpus Christi was $450. Very reasonable in my opinion. Through no fault of their own, they did charge an addition $60 for "squared" u-bolts since Supreme Suspensions sent the incorrect "rounded" ones shown on their website.

[Buc22]

Nice! I have appointment tomorrow to have the front spacers installed. I already installed the black front sumo springs and in the rear Airlift airbags with internal bump stop. I believe the combo of both the spacer and black sumo's resulted in your 3" lift. Hoping I get the same results when I get my rig back tomorrow evening.

[Buc22]

I forgot to mention that after installing black sumo spring did result in a 1" lift up front.

[booster]

On the later than 2003 Chevies the wheel/spring pivot ratio is about 2.3 IIRC. It will vary a bit depending on what offset the wheels are, too.


The spacer measurements can be a bit confusing, I think, as I have seen 1" spacers that measured 1" thick, but didn't really lift the spring an inch because of the spring pocket in the spacer. You need to measure the thickness of the area between the bottom of the spacer and bottom of the spacer.


The Sumos could probably make it sit a bit higher even if barely touching, with some of it being it will limit downtravel of the body and also put higher returning force on it on rebound. Friction in thinks that move can make the movement stop in and area that wouldn't be the same going up as down, so if it stops on the upstroke of the body, which is the most likely with Sumo there, it could sit higher. I think the bump stop is even inboard of the spring so any movement there will give even larger than the 2.3 ratio of the spring, I would expect.


If the spacers are like the ones I have seen, they have a contoured outside to nest in the spring pillar which is radiused on the outside and with a spud on the inside to center the spring. It may take them a while to fully seat.


Do you have the final print out of what the alignment settings turned out to be? There have been a lot of issues lately with shops just "getting in the green" on the automatic alignment machines which may or may not be very good settings because the green ranges are very large.

[Buc22]

Booster

No I drop off to have my spring spacer installed this morning and pick back up this afternoon.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Buc22

Booster

No I drop off to have my spring spacer installed this morning and pick back up this afternoon.

If the Sumo isn't contacting enough to lift, what is? The only other lifting on the front would an gas shock or maybe if the suspension bushings were loosened and then tightened without weight on them. Something weird is going on.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Buc22

Nice! I have appointment tomorrow to have the front spacers installed. I already installed the black front sumo springs and in the rear Airlift airbags with internal bump stop. I believe the combo of both the spacer and black sumo's resulted in your 3" lift. Hoping I get the same results when I get my rig back tomorrow evening.

I will be interested in your results.

Originally Posted by Buc22

I forgot to mention that after installing black sumo spring did result in a 1" lift up front.

Yes. I beiieve had I not also had the coil spring spacers installed, that the larger sumo front bump stops would have added some lift all by themselves.

The purpose of the spring spacers in my case was to lift without changing the ride. The Sumospring spacers, while not touching (but almost), will add stability to large motions when handling curves, bumpy roads, and high winds. My hope is they mitigate any additional top-heavy movements introduced by the 3" lift.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

On the later than 2003 Chevies the wheel/spring pivot ratio is about 2.3 IIRC. It will vary a bit depending on what offset the wheels are, too.

The Sumos could probably make it sit a bit higher even if barely touching, with some of it being it will limit downtravel of the body and also put higher returning force on it on rebound. Friction in thinks that move can make the movement stop in and area that wouldn't be the same going up as down, so if it stops on the upstroke of the body, which is the most likely with Sumo there, it could sit higher. I think the bump stop is even inboard of the spring so any movement there will give even larger than the 2.3 ratio of the spring, I would expect.

The spacer measurements can be a bit confusing, I think, as I have seen 1" spacers that measured 1" thick, but didn't really lift the spring an inch because of the spring pocket in the spacer. You need to measure the thickness of the area between the bottom of the spacer and bottom of the spacer.

Your description is just how the front coil spacers are designed. Only about 1" in the area the spring sits. The rest of the spacer just cradles the spring to keep it in position.

If the spacers are like the ones I have seen, they have a contoured outside to nest in the spring pillar which is radiused on the outside and with a spud on the inside to center the spring. It may take them a while to fully seat.

Time will tell.

Do you have the final print out of what the alignment settings turned out to be? There have been a lot of issues lately with shops just "getting in the green" on the automatic alignment machines which may or may not be very good settings because the green ranges are very large.


I will have to wait until the alignment in a week or so to know this.

Originally Posted by booster

If the Sumo isn't contacting enough to lift, what is? The only other lifting on the front would an gas shock or maybe if the suspension bushings were loosened and then tightened without weight on them. Something weird is going on.

I agree the mystery continues.

I just went out and was able to slip a sheet of paper between the front Sumo spring bump stop and the control arm. So while it is close, mine is definitely not touching. My 2-1/2 yr. old Koni FSD shocks are not gas-charged. I can't say about the suspension bushings, but it is possible they were tightened without weight being on them. Wonder if they will settle in over time?

I intend to put some miles on it tomorrow (only about 5 miles so far on the ride back from the shop). We get our second Moderna vaccination tomorrow and will add 20 miles. I plan to do some sight-seeing on the way home to put at least 50 miles total. This is per-alignment as I am curious as to how handling has changed (if any) and the high winds lately will be a good test of how it handles cross-winds.

[Buc22]

So after all day the Truck lifting shop says they cannot do the job as they are not comfortable working on such a heavy van with just floor jack and jack stands. Anybody knows of any shops capable of install 2" spacers on the front of a chevy van? I live in near Ft Hood Texas

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Buc22

So after all day the Truck lifting shop says they cannot do the job as they are not comfortable working on such a heavy van with just floor jack and jack stands. Anybody knows of any shops capable of install 2" spacers on the front of a chevy van? I live in near Ft Hood Texas

Come on down!

Take a trip to Corpus Christi and visit Texas Truck Masters (361-334-2622). They did mine using floor jacks and stands. I could also have taken it to Four Wheel Specialties (361-991-5438. They also looked at mine and said it would fit on their alignment rack which they said had the ability to drop the front wheels. Truck Masters was $100/hr. labor and Four Wheel Specialties labor rate was $130/hr. for customer supplied parts. I'm a cheap skate so I went with Truck Masters.

But Four Wheel Specialties would be a one-stop-shop since they will also do an alignment when finished.

And yes, I was turned down by two shops before I found these. One even looked at the van, said they could do it, then backed out when I took it in for the appointment. But that's ok. I didn't want anyone working on it that didn't feel up to the task.

[Buc22]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Come on down!

Take a trip to Corpus Christi and visit Texas Truck Masters (361-334-2622). They did mine using floor jacks and stands. I could also have taken it to Four Wheel Specialties (361-991-5438. They also looked at mine and said it would fit on their alignment rack which they said had the ability to drop the front wheels. Truck Masters was $100/hr. labor and Four Wheel Specialties labor rate was $130/hr. for customer supplied parts. I'm a cheap skate so I went with Truck Masters.

But Four Wheel Specialties would be a one-stop-shop since they will also do an alignment when finished.

And yes, I was turned down by two shops before I found these. One even looked at the van, said they could do it, then backed out when I took it in for the appointment. But that's ok. I didn't want anyone working on it that didn't feel up to the task.

Thanks
I just emailed two shops within 30min of my town and hoping someone takes the accepts the job. I detailed challenges of working on my rig.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Buc22

Thanks
I just emailed two shops within 30min of my town and hoping someone takes the accepts the job. I detailed challenges of working on my rig.

The hurdle is getting to the frame to lift an rv like ours due to the low hanging tanks, etc. Can't blame them for preferring to do it that way over floor jacks and jack stands for both safety and ease of service.

The problem is getting a lift low enough (due to the limited ground clearance), yet still have high enough lift points to engage the frame. That is why the first shop turned me down. The other alternative shop planned to use their alighnment rack. The one I used was the only one willing to do the job from the floor.

I wonder if now that mine is lifted, if the first shop would be able to do it.

At least it has been great from me as I am able to slide under and explore areas I've never seen in my 3-1/2 years of ownership. I found a few busted clips (not caused by the lift shop) that I zip tied until I can get replacements from Chevy. One is a tramsmission cooler line (?) still held by one side, and the other looks to be dash ac related. It's nice to be able to get under there.

[rowiebowie]

Did a 50+ mile drive today on various roads (paved & unpaved) and at different speeds including 70+ in 35mph winds. No additional rocking or sway due the additional 3" height. Maybe some of it could be credited to the Sumo spring bump stops, but I never could tell when they egaged.

If not for the noticeably higher step-in/step-down height, I absolutely couldn't tell any difference from pre-lift. This is exactly what I wanted to happen (as little change as possible to driving, ride, & handling), so mission accomplished.

I did enjoy a lack of worry when encountering pot holes and steep driveways. Also, a perception of slightly tighter turning radius, although I don't know how this could be a result of the lift, and it still turns wide so maybe wishful thinking.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Did a 50+ mile drive today on various roads (paved & unpaved) and at different speeds including 70+ in 35mph winds. No additional rocking or sway due the additional 3" height. Maybe some of it could be credited to the Sumo spring bump stops, but I never could tell when they egaged.

If not for the noticeably higher step-in/step-down height, I absolutely couldn't tell any difference from pre-lift. This is exactly what I wanted to happen (as little change as possible to driving, ride, & handling), so mission accomplished.

I did enjoy a lack of worry when encountering pot holes and steep driveways. Also, a perception of slightly tighter turning radius, although I don't know how this could be a result of the lift, and it still turns wide so maybe wishful thinking.

Good that you are still happy with driving, as that is what counts. We will know more when you get it aligned to see where it starts and where it finishes, which the should give you. It is often surprising for some reason. Of course we don't know where the van was at for alignment before the lift, so make a lot out of it in some ways. Sometimes, good handling can be there, or even an improvement, due to increased toe in, often more than it should be and will be corrected.


The turning radius is interesting. It very well may be visual perception as things do change. One thing I still have trouble with is the change in were things are in front of the van because your first site of the ground is out further. It may also be because a spring lift changes the tie rod angles to the knuckles, the scuff radius, and the camber and caster, to various degrees. For instance if it is toed out it will initially turn in a bit faster, but not sure about at full turn. It could also be as simple as you now have more room before the tire hits something on full lock.

[Bjones7788]

Having installed the Moog front springs and 3 inch rear lift blocks on a 2013 Chevy RT 190 a little over a year and probably 30,000 miles ago I have been very happy.

I think Booster sent me suggested alignment specs (Thanks) which I gave to the alignment shop and am not sure how close the shop came to those specs even though I got a print out and saved it. My ability to make a rational comparison between Boosters specs and what I ended up with is poor.

So far I have not noticed abnormal tire wear nd am happy with handling but I want to follow what others see in case returning for a second alignment might be indicated. Keep us posted.

BJ

[Buc22]

Originally Posted by Bjones7788

Having installed the Moog front springs and 3 inch rear lift blocks on a 2013 Chevy RT 190 a little over a year and probably 30,000 miles ago I have been very happy.

I think Booster sent me suggested alignment specs (Thanks) which I gave to the alignment shop and am not sure how close the shop came to those specs even though I got a print out and saved it. My ability to make a rational comparison between Boosters specs and what I ended up with is poor.

So far I have not noticed abnormal tire wear nd am happy with handling but I want to follow what others see in case returning for a second alignment might be indicated. Keep us posted.

BJ

Good to hear you are happy. May I ask did your spring give you 3" or 4" lift up front? I know it is subjective but how would rate harshness of new front springs? I cannot find any shop that will install my front spacers so I am left with install new springs or going high dollar are installing a lift spindle.

Thank You

[ChicagoTom]

I have a Chevy Express PW. I'm not sure why you want to do it, maybe you go off road and I'm on main drags. I've never had any issues, and 1+ years were full time and traveled all over the country and Canada. JMO My PW is just as low, if not lower

[Buc22]

Chicagotom
I touch over speed bumps and I want a few more inches of ground clearance.

[Bjones7788]

As I recall I was one of the folks who got nearly 4" in lift with the later Moog front springs under my 2013 Chevy Roadtrek 190 at the same time installed rear Air Lift bags. My wife and I thought the Air Lift bags gave significant hop to the rear - she used to sleep back there but said the air lifts popped her up out of the bed and off the rear seating so we took the air lifts out and put 3" spacers between axle and springs - she says that the ride is no better. The front Moog struck us as more harsh but improved ground clearance which is a problem for the Chevy Roadtreks after 2002 ar least.
I also have a 2004 Chevy Roadtrek 190 that we put front spring spacers in. They gave about 3" Lift and I actually think a harsher ride than the Moog cause in the 2013. The 2004 also got 3" rear spacers at the same time.
Our go to shop said they could not install the circular front spring spacers - those spacers looked to wide to fit but the vendor said they will fit so I had another shop put them and they did fit.. I happened to just have that van up on Jack's and checked the spacers for wear and fit and everything looked OK.

BOTYOM LINE if I had a "virgin" Chevy Riadtrek I would quickly install spacers front and back - accept minor ride harshness but far less chance of tank and ground effects damage from Chevy Roadtrek ground clearance problem.
BJ

[Bjones7788]

Sorry - spell check messed my post up. Removing the rear Air Lift bags and putting in 3" spacers made the rear ride now better ( as opposed to no better)