2023 Ram Promaster

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I guess you would have to ask ARV. I assume they started out with Sprinter before the Promaster and Transit were ever on the market and still believe the Sprinter is the best quality to match the brand. The cost difference of the chassis is inconsequential for their customers who want and expect the best.

I spent 30 years as an engineer in a series of Tier 1 automotive suppliers and have worked with pretty much every OEM and their quality departments. I would put Mercedes in the middle of the pack when it comes to quality focus. Chrysler/Fiat would be a few steps below them. Ford a couple steps above but not at the top. From a quality perspective I wish Toyota or Honda was in the mix for our vans.

[Davydd]

The ARV BBox is plain and simple a Class C and what goes in the box would be identical despite the chassis. Being a simple box without all the intractabilities of a van it would probably not make for much extra engineering.

The van is different, and yes, I paid for all the extra engineering that went into a van totally different than anything they usually adapt from previous experience and builds despite my trying to adapt as much as possible. COVID disappointed me in that I could not participate more in the actual build and be there.

I know I could not achieve the goals of my design in a RAM van. A Transit? Maybe. But being a Chevy man in my youth arguing Chevies and Fords in grade school and my dad, uncles and me as a college intern for a year in plant engineering working at the Chevrolet Truck Manufacturing Plant in Indianapolis I have an ingrained dislike I can't shake to this day for all things Ford. I guess it is part of my DNA.

It would be intriguing to get away from diesel fuel after 17 years though I have adapted and it hasn't been much of a hardship on the road other than dirty pump handles. The DEF irritation has been remedied for the most part. I like the 400 mile range on one fill. I could have had a 4 cylinder gas engine in a Sprinter had I pushed it, but conceded the diesel engine was bullet proof and has all the power needed or more in a van.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I spent 30 years as an engineer in a series of Tier 1 automotive suppliers and have worked with pretty much every OEM and their quality departments. I would put Mercedes in the middle of the pack when it comes to quality focus. Chrysler/Fiat would be a few steps below them. Ford a couple steps above but not at the top. From a quality perspective I wish Toyota or Honda was in the mix for our vans.

Sounds about right. The topic of Mercedes quality is kind of strange -- a weird mixture of excellent mechanical engineering, consistent manufacturing and decent aesthetics set against bizarre human factors (which they share will all German marques), frequent over-engineering, and sensor, control and emissions systems that are beyond amateurish. It averages out to "nothing special", as you say.

I would KILL to have Toyota sell a full-sized van in the US.

[MsNomer]

Too often, people equate PM's lower price with lower quality without understanding its history and concept.

In the early 2000’s, Fiat, Peugeot, and Citroen collaborated on a new van body which debuted in 2006 as the Fiat Ducato, the Peugeot Boxer and the Citroen Jumper. Each had its own drivetrain and maybe some minor cockpit differences, but that exact body has endured unchanged through the 2022 Promaster, and even to 2023 except for the modest changes to the front end, mainly the hood. My exact 2014 build would fit a 2023 Promaster or a 2006 Ducato, Boxer or Jumper.

This uniformity, not lack of quality, has contributed significantly to the PM's price advantage. Also note how the various size options play together for ease and economy of manufacturing. As a simple example, a Safelite rep told me in 2018 that there were 14 Transit windshields. Since 2006, there has been exactly 1 windshield for all Ducato, Boxers, Jumpers and Promasters.

I, for one, think the PM's design is pure genius. I have to say that since you'd never guess otherwise.

[jrobe]

Except what price advantage is there anymore? When you price it out it is a $50-60k+ van.

[rockymtnb]

Among Big Three RV manufacturers Coachmen is unique in offering Class B units on all three chassis: Sprinter, Transit and Promaster. Coachmen's General Manager Nick Recchio has addressed the comparative benefits of each type: performance and power on the Transit; luxury features and diesel mileage on the Sprinter; space utilization and nimble handling on the Promaster.

Recchio discussed these tradeoffs in a video from the Tampa 2022 RV show. Beginning around 17:30 he explains why the Promaster has more usable build area than the Transit despite being a foot shorter in overall length:

https://youtu.be/0u_f5qZmG7s?t=1050

The Transit based Beyond is Coachmen's top selling van, with the Promaster based Nova running second. So they're definitely still big Transit fans but seeing excellent results from the Promaster too.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

luxury features and diesel mileage on the Sprinter;

What "luxury features" does the Sprinter uniquely have?
"Luxury reputation" I would grant.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by avanti

What "luxury features" does the Sprinter uniquely have?

Luxury bagel schmears while waiting for the service department to replace emission sensors perhaps?

Seriously, Coachmen's Recchio also mentioned ground clearance as a benefit for the Sprinter. I should have included that...

[Bud]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

Luxury bagel schmears while waiting for the service department to replace emission sensors perhaps?

Seriously, Coachmen's Recchio also mentioned ground clearance as a benefit for the Sprinter. I should have included that...

And I think they look kinda nice.

Bud

[MsNomer]

I also upfitted my son's 170” Sprinter—he needed to seat 8. Yes, there were some things that were better—his slider opens/closes easier than mine, his cab feels more spacious because it doesn’t have the overhead storage, his radio is better.