2015/14 Roadtrek Sprinter DEF Adventures with Mercedes

[bikerbill]

Adventures in the Mercedes service department with our brand new 2015/14 Roadtrek Extended Body Sprinter CS E-trek and our DEF problems.

On our first weekend overnight trip within less than 200 miles after taking delivery we had a CHECK ENGINE light come on followed by DEF LOW 10 RESTARTS then followed by DEF LOW 16 RESTARTS all within 100 miles of our starting point. We have the large DEF tank reported to be about 6 gallons in size located sort of under the passenger seat and over the fresh water tank. It only took a quart and it was full. Continued to drive and the CK ENGINE and DEF LOW 16 STARTS stayed on all the way home.

Called local Reading PA, Tom Masano Mercedes Sprinter dealer. Said YES they can work on and service our Roadtrek Conversion M-home Sprinter. They could only diagnose the computer that week and reset it as they were booked up. Took it to them and they checked the computer and it was showing multiple errors regarding the NOX sensors and showed no errors with DEF so they just reset it and sent me on my way. It’s a 90-minute drive and half-way home the CK ENGINE LIGHT came on. Called them when I got home and they said we could use it until they could schedule us to come in for service.

The next day we left with friends on a car driving trip to Disney Florida and Branson MO. Our daughters family was going to use the Roadtrek that weekend for a 2 day camping trip. I had explained about what to watch for to our son-in-law and they left on their vacation. Sure enough, CK ENGINE then DEF LOW 10 STARTS then DEF LOW 16 STARTS. By the time they came home it was down to 8 STARTS LEFT.

I called from Florida and asked the Reading PA MB dealer about a loaner car if we had someone take the MB to them: answer no. You didn’t buy it here but we will arrange for a free valet pick up and delivery. Works for me, especially since we were now in Florida. Reading MB picked it up and the next day they emailed and said they reset the computer and no problem. They wanted to test drive it the next day and try again. So 2 days later the email was: OUR SECOND TEST DRIVE SAME LIGHTS ARE COMING ON. UPON FURTHER INVESTIGATION LOOKS LIKE WHEN THE UPFITTER REINSTALLED THE ADBLUE TANK THEY PINCHED A LINE. WE CANNOT GET TO IT. IT WILL HAVE TO GET CORRECTED AT THE UPFITTER. YOU WILL NEED TO CONTACT YOUR DEALER TO SEE WHAT TO DO. SORRY COULD NOT DO MORE. WE WILL DELIVER THE CAMPER BACK TO YOU TODAY.

Imagine our shock when MB refuses to work on it due to the UPFITTER’s installation. I sent and email to RT to please call this dealer ASAP and when I did not get a reasonably quick answer, remember we’re away in Florida and this is back in PA and the MB dealer is going to redeliver it back to my home I called the MB dealer and said I was trying to make other arrangements with Roadtrek and verified he still had the motorhome there. He suggested a MB dealer in Lancaster PA. By then I had placed my “comments” about Roadtrek and some issues on the Facebook “Roadtreking: TheGroup”. That got a quick response from Jim Hammil about “now I’ve got his attention” and his staff would handle this quickly and told me he instructed the staff to contact the 1st dealer and then I suggested they also contact the Lancaster MB dealer. I was told via email that they would handle it and take care of getting it to a servicing dealer. Imagine my surprise when some 2+ hours later after leaving a show at Branson when I called the MB dealer in Lancaster and they had not heard from Roadtrek. So I called my selling dealer Fretz RV and asked them “who would they take it to?” They take theirs to MB of Ft. Washington, PA. I called them and they said “no problem” working on conversion MB Sprinters: they do it all the time. I immediately called back to Reading MB and asked them to deliver the vehicle to Ft Washington and they agreed.

The commentary from me regarding this problem and what I felt are fit-and-finish issues on the FB “RTking:TheGroup” is what got me “kicked off” of it and the “Roadtreking Forum,” both operated by Mike Wendland. Their loss, not mine. I can still read everything only I cannot help answer anyone’s questions.

Now the next day I called Ft Washington MB and they had already diagnosed an issue with a DEF module. Ordered one and it arrived the day before Thanksgiving. Installed it on Black Friday. Now there was next another issue with communications with the next DEF module in the circuit. Ordered one and when it came in it too was replaced. Now they began to see issues with the DEF spray-dosing pump. To access this and the DEF tank they had to remove first the lower body-side moldings, the motorized step and the fresh water tank. What you have no idea of is how much “inside” they have to remove to do all this. Driver seat removed, lower dash panel removed, inside covering of the column between passenger door and the sliding door removed, to name some of the major parts that needed to be removed to access the MB wiring.

Now the DEF dosing spray pump is replaced and still the diagnostics were not happy. 2 different DEF communication modules and a DEF dosing pump. Next they took down the DEF tank and its plumbing and made sure nothing was blocking it or anything strange inside the tank. All clear. When checking the “age” of the MB, sure it’s a 2014 build, they noticed it dated back to November 2013 and was among one of the early “builds.” MB changed their diagnostic software version when they built the 2014’s. So on a whim the service manager used the diagnostic software for the 2013 Sprinters. Now they are getting different readings and they pointed to the NOX sensors. Both were ordered and replaced. Viola! Everything seems to be OK. Reassemble all the parts that were removed so they could properly road test it. Done and working. Wow.

So on Nov 17th the 1st dealer picked it up and threw up his hands on the 20th. On the 21st it went to the 2nd dealer and I got it back from them on Dec 18th.

Several things I’ve learned along the way.

Don’t expect Roadtrek to get involved in a Mercedes problem. Handle it yourself no matter what Jim tells you. Maybe if I’d have waited another day or so while 1500 miles away from home his staff might have done something: but I was not waiting. Call your local Roadtrek dealer and ask which Mercedes shop they use and if possible visit the MB shop BEFORE you need them to see if they do in fact work on Sprinters. The first dealer does many FedEx trucks but I learned they apparently don’t want to work on things installed by an upfitter. You need more than a shop that does oil and lube service.

If necessary to access or service Mercedes parts MB “will pay” for the removal and reinstallation of upfitter installed items, “if” it is a “certified upfitter” and under MB warranty. Roadtrek is certified.

While at the dealer I asked if they could reprogram the Daytime Running Lights so that they are manually controlled with the dash switch as opposed to being on all the time when the engine was idling in a parking lot. No problem. Done.

I asked the Service Manager, when should I refill the DEF tank? His answer is when the first light comes on. I asked should I top it off every time I get fuel? He said that was kinda overkill and not really necessary but I could if I wanted to. My 2013 Sprinter had over 7000 miles when I traded it and I never added DEF nor did the light come on.

I have no complaints with the Ft Washington PA Mercedes dealer. They did things by-the-book, step-by-step. They have a procedure that they need to follow per Mercedes and I think they did it properly. But I do have a problem with Tom Masano Mercedes in Reading PA. Don’t tell me you can work on them completely when you really don’t want to. If they had said no in the beginning I would have called our selling dealer next and would have learned about Ft Washington sooner. Reading PA MB just happens to be slightly closer than Ft Washington.

Hoping that our next outing this weekend will not show anymore issues with warning lights from the dash.

[markopolo]

This is good advice:

Originally Posted by bikerbill

........... Call your local Roadtrek dealer and ask which Mercedes shop they use and if possible visit the MB shop BEFORE you need them to see if they do in fact work on Sprinters. The first dealer does many FedEx trucks but I learned they apparently don’t want to work on things installed by an upfitter. You need more than a shop that does oil and lube service.

And this info is bound to greatly help others:

Originally Posted by bikerbill

......... When checking the “age” of the MB, sure it’s a 2014 build, they noticed it dated back to November 2013 and was among one of the early “builds.” MB changed their diagnostic software version when they built the 2014’s. So on a whim the service manager used the diagnostic software for the 2013 Sprinters. Now they are getting different readings and they pointed to the NOX sensors. Both were ordered and replaced. Viola! Everything seems to be OK. Reassemble all the parts that were removed so they could properly road test it. Done and working..............

[markopolo]

And a little admin note

Bikerbill has a couple of decades experience with RV's (correct me if I'm mistaken). He knows as well as or better than anyone that "stuff" can happen to these rigs, even new RV's. What I see here is the desire by him to get the problem solved promptly and report the solution to benefit others.

"Stuff" is going to happen from time to time. Feel free to report on it here but make sure you're looking to solve the problem.

[bikerbill]

markopolo is correct. Several decades of large Class A motorhome experience and the associated repairs and replacement of parts.

If I had not been away on vacation, without the Roadtrek, I would have handled it differently but the end results would probably have been the same. I'm satisfied with my Sprinter, so far as we've had a chance to use it. My prior was a 2014/13 Airstream Interstate and I had it from new with 35 miles and traded it off with some 7500 miles and NO, I repeat, NO issues with the Sprinter at all.

This new 2015/14 Roadtrek arrives with several hundred miles as it is driven to the dealers. In the first 200 miles I had a bad experience. I blame it totally on Mercedes and the 1st service dealer. It appears to be an ongoing issue they have with both the DEF and NOX systems. I don't fault the 2nd MB dealer but I do fault the 1st one for not being a quality Sprinter dealer. They have the franchise but not the facility to work on motorhomes so they decided to pass-the-buck. And I also fault Mercedes Cust Service for not getting more proactive when I did get in touch with them. The dealer has a procedure to follow before he can even call for "help" from MB and he was following it. But when I called Cust Service at MB and explained, it was "not that important" I guess. Oh well, it is fixed, we hope.

[Arlo]

Oh, man, that is quite a saga. We had a similar experience this summer with 2013 RT. Kept getting CEL followed quickly by 10-starts-remaining DEF message. Sprinter dealer out there couldn't fix it and, after three tries, recommended starting a technical inquiry with MB, which could take up to a week. We eventually headed home to Indiana with 10 starts remaining. Made it back with 5 starts remaining. MB in Indy diagnosed it as NOx sensors, replaced both and kept it for a couple days for road testing. No further problems after 3500 miles.

[Davydd]

It seems Class B owners, especially first time RV owners, have a difficult time distinguishing between what is a converter's responsibility and what is the chassis cab manufacturer's responsibility. Then it is compounded by the myriad of installation equipment warranty cards you are given for refrigerator, microwave, air conditioner, etc. It is next to impossible for a newbie to sort out. Then what is the responsibility when a converter modifies or damages a chassis item or adds stuff in the way of normal maintenance? Too bad RV dealers don't have the capability of performing one stop service. And here I am buying a dealerless Class B.

[bikerbill]

Davydd, the interesting thing I learned is that if a converter is "certified" by Mercedes, then MB will pay to remove and reinstall items installed by the converter if they need to access MB parts. Not sure if I buy the extended MB warranty if that holds true and before I would, I will find out. And yes, Roadtrek is certified. Advanced I think says they are somewhere but last I looked at MB list of certified upfitters, Advanced wasn't on it.

[gerrym51]

bikerbill-ilooked on the'preffered upfitter" list forsprinters-
advanced rv was number 3.

http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/upfitters- ... d-upfitter

[Davydd]

I knew Advanced RV was a preferred upfitter. That was never in question in my mind. Mercedes Benz was at Advanced Fest in force last May as was VB Air Suspension and other partners. They don't sell through a dealer network so you know there are no conflicts of interest in whether they are serving the customer or the dealer. It is definitely the customer right down to dealing and getting to personally know the staff on all facets of the work. That's not just me. Every ARV customer gets more attention than Campskunk and Mike Wendland do at Roadtrek.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Davydd

It seems Class B owners, especially first time RV owners, have a difficult time distinguishing between what is a converter's responsibility and what is the chassis cab manufacturer's responsibility. Then it is compounded by the myriad of installation equipment warranty cards you are given for refrigerator, microwave, air conditioner, etc. It is next to impossible for a newbie to sort out. Then what is the responsibility when a converter modifies or damages a chassis item or adds stuff in the way of normal maintenance? Too bad RV dealers don't have the capability of performing one stop service. And here I am buying a dealerless Class B.

I think it's the same problem will all motorhomes. A friend has a class A made by Tifin, but has to go to Freightliner for servicing of chassis.


- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

[Hatteras Jim]

Dear Arlo and Biker Bill:

Thank you for your detailed posts concerning your problems with DEF. My wife and I did our own MB Sprinter Class B conversion (2013) and used it a few dozen times on short trips. We just retired and took an extended trip to the Keys from NC as a shake down cruise. We had a previous problem with a stuck EGR valve at 700 miles that took 4 trips to 4 different MB dealers before 1 actually troubleshot it and fixed it. 2 reset the computer and 1 replaced something totally unrelated.

Anyhow, we just departed for our retirement dream trip to the West spread out over 3 months. We made it 200 miles from home when the CEL came on, followed by the Check DEF (I just filled it before we left town so I knew it wasn't low). And then.....10 starts until you die.

Fortunately, a MB dealer along our route agreed to see us. Took us right in and came out an hour later. We fixed your problem!, she said. Trust me, I am very cautious about MB dealers. I've been to 6 of them now and only 1 fixed it right the first time. So what did you do, I inquired? We reset the computer for you. When it gets low, it sometimes doesn't reset when you fill it, she said. I said that there is something else very wrong, I am heading to Ca and 10 starts won't make it. She said that 90% of the time, this fixes it. I know that this is BS; but, it is Friday at 4 PM and they did take me right away, so I can't complain. I also reminded them that it never got low enough to turn on the alarm. She said, "Oh".

Needless to say, we made it 50 miles before the sequence repeated itself. My wife and I are now at our first stop with ten starts left. I have another appointment at another MB dealer on Monday which is 100 miles in the wrong direction; but, they are working me in to their busy schedule. I'm thankful for that. Our next campground gave us a full refund.

The detailed info that you provided gives us HOPE that this can be fixed. The info also steers us to what can be wrong and I won't settle for anything less than at least 2 NOx sensors and a def pump check, regardless of what the computer says.

I called another MB dealer that is along our way and he said that it would take at least a week and he has two in the shop that he is currently trying to figure out with the same problem. I'm avoiding that one.

I am also giving them the number for Ft. Washington, if they need a consult. Thanks for that as well.

Tomorrow we are using 2 of our starts to sightsee....then there were 8!

Thanks again

[Arlo]

This is indeed a painfully familiar experience, H Jim. To reinforce the hope-for-the-future factor, I've had 7000 trouble free miles since my NOx sensor adventure at the end of last summer. And, I made it from Oregon to Indiana on 5 starts by idling while refueling. Good luck, post an update to let us know how this plays out, and hang in there.

[mutcth]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

The commentary from me regarding this problem and what I felt are fit-and-finish issues on the FB “RTking:TheGroup” is what got me “kicked off” of it and the “Roadtreking Forum,” both operated by Mike Wendland. Their loss, not mine. I can still read everything only I cannot help answer anyone’s questions.

That bothers me, especially since Wendland promotes his career as a journalist, which would seem to encourage telling both sides of a story. Happy that there are other sources of information out there. Hope your Sprinter behaves itself after the fixes.

Tom

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by mutcth

That bothers me, especially since Wendland promotes his career as a journalist, which would seem to encourage telling both sides of a story. Happy that there are other sources of information out there. Hope your Sprinter behaves itself after the fixes.

Tom

I voluntarily quit both of Wendland's groups because of the one sided fluff that they promote. I just feel him and Campskunk are compensated misleading mouthpieces for the Roadtrek groupies

[booster]

"Sponsored" sites (and that what they really are) are very tough to moderate, I would think, as any site can get very heavily into complaining and badmouthing only and implode. The other side of it there is natural tendency to shed a good light on the "sponsor" while minimizing any downside, and that is also not good. I, too, find the sites just too much of a "group hug for Roadtreks" to enjoy, but a lot of Facebook stuff is that way. The booting of mildly dissenting folks is also troubling to me.

Wendlund still puts on a face of impartial journalist for the most part, but Campskunk now refers to himself as a Roadtrek Technical Consultant, which I think is a good thing with his long history, and high knowledge level, on the various forums as a non affiliated poster. Yan Seiner has also clarified his status as being a Roadtrek Engineer, although I think it is as a contractor, not full time. He has been a long time poster on the Yahoo board. Transparency is always good, especially when there are folks getting information and are trying to make informed decisions when they don't know the advice or info is biased.

I like the nondenominational sites like the B Forum, where you get all the good, the bad, and the ugly for all brands.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by mutcth

That bothers me, especially since Wendland promotes his career as a journalist, which would seem to encourage telling both sides of a story. Happy that there are other sources of information out there. Hope your Sprinter behaves itself after the fixes.

Tom

I actually saw and read 'Bikerbills' post that got him kicked off. his ire had been building up over several issues with his new CSe-trek -however it was a 'major' super class 'rant'. you would have kicked him off also. The irony of it was he added to the rant the fully capped post that the mercedes sprinter dealer sent him with information that was subsequently proven wrong. sometimes when we are 'frustrated' we say thing that we can't take back.


Mike Wendland is a businessman. he has many revenue streams. His site is both his passion and a way of deducting 'business expenses' associated with his roadtrekking-i'd do it to if i had the werewithal.

as for campskunk- he usually denigrates my posts. Since every time he does that i use his real first name back to him-he stops for awhile

[markopolo]

Let's get this back on topic - 2015/14 Sprinter DEF Adventures with Mercedes that happened to be a Roadtrek.

This gem of information from bikerbill -

So on a whim the service manager used the diagnostic software for the 2013 Sprinters. Now they are getting different readings and they pointed to the NOX sensors. Both were ordered and replaced. Viola! Everything seems to be OK. Reassemble all the parts that were removed so they could properly road test it. Done and working. Wow.

is too valuable to get lost amongst other things.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Let's get this back on topic - 2015/14 Sprinter DEF Adventures with Mercedes that happened to be a Roadtrek.

This gem of information from bikerbill -

is too valuable to get lost amongst other things.

Mark- you are of course correct. However isn't kind of sad that Mercedes Benz can't figure out things themselves. It was the MB dealer telling William incorrect info(caused by diagnosing for the wrong year) that triggered his rant that got him bounced. I read a lot of Roadtrek posts. the greater percent of issues(and complaints) are the Sprinter part -not the roadtrek part.

[bikerbill]

OK so we're back from a 3100 mile trip for 3 weeks to FLA. No problems with the Mercedes systems other than they still have a wheel shimmy in the steering at 65+ mph. The did replace the front tires at MB in Jan due to flat spots they found since it sat at the RT factory for over 8 months last year. And we are still sure the speedometer is reading 5 mph lower than actual speed. We've checked with 2 GPS units and several highway radar speed signs confirm our suspicions. So I think the DEF and NOX is now OK. It only took a total of 6 weeks at MB shops. And Jim Hammil can say all he wants on Wendlends RT page about how he and RT will get involved if you have a problem with DEF or NOX.

And "gerry" yes my "rant" was in CAPS. I was in Branson MO with my iPhone, not my laptop, and I copied the exact message I got in an email from the first MB dealer we took it to. They were the ones who said, no can help. Problem with the up fitter installed things underneath. Someone has to remove them so we can work in it. remember, we were 1500 miles away from our new RT van (we were traveling by car). I fist called RT then sent an email. I needed answers and was not getting them. We had tickets to various shows at Branson and I was working between the shows to get answers. So yes I posted my "rant" on the Wendland FB page. And yes, Jim Hammil did not like it. He immediately stated that the RT office would be in touch with the MB dealer. 2 hours later they still had no phone call from RT. Then I took matters in my own hand from 1500 miles away and get it handled by another MB dealer in Ft Washington. Took them 4 weeks as I've posted earlier. Those problem seem to be in the past.

Now on this 3 week trip, we find we cannot dry camp on 12 volts and run the fridge. Once the battery "idiot" lights drop from 4 to 3, the fridge won't run. After several phone calls and emails with RT service, we determined that it "could be" as 12 v RT problem (but service didn't think so-ha ha) or more likely a fridge circuit board problem. So for the rest of the trip we ran a 5000 watt E-trek inverter to operate the fridge on 115 volts. Kinda like using a 3" fire hose to fill the 30 gallon water tank on the RT. Its going into the RT dealer this week.

And yes, I ranted about the Quality Control of RT. First time we went to use the instant hot water discovered the water valve was off. Turned it on and when the water pump was turned on we got a showed in the cabinet. Seems the one water line pulled out of its connection. So much for QC both at the factory and at the dealer.

Now we ordered it with the Webaston diesel heat/hot water system. Could not get hot water more than a cup full at a time. Once we came home and I put it up on ramps to crawl underneath, seems the winterization by-pass valve was open on the Webasto. HUMMMM. RT factory or dealer? Who knows.

And when I was under it looking the 3" return air line which brings the cabin air from up front back into the heater to be warmed and discharged into the read of the unit was almost completely crushed. It seems RT rand the 3" flex tubing over the top of the differential. So when you hit a large bump, which we did of course, when the rear axle flexed it crushed the 3" line. No wonder the air flow for heat in the cabin was not that great.

Went to use the outside 115 volt electric outlet. The GFCI would not operate and when you look at it there is rust showing on the front of the GFCI so its obviously inoperable. I could go on about many other small little issues of QC inside about the fit and fitment of the cabinetry but that would take too long and they could not fix it unless they removed and built new cabinets.

And RT wonders why I "talk and rant" about Quality Control---I don't think they know the meaning of QC. But you never hear Wendland or Campskunk or Yan Seiner discussing screw holes in cabinets that are not supposed to be there. Or misaligned doors, etc.

[booster]

What doesn't make a lot of sense to me is not that the Sprinters have some issues, as all vehicles have some gremlins and the Sprinters have a lot of things to go wrong in the engine control and driveability/suspension areas. Was does not make sense is that MB has a technically advanced vehicle, sells them at a premium, but don't have the dealers trained and equipped to properly service them. We hear about it here and on other boards pretty regularly. A problem that is not all that serious, nobody died or sat stalled in the desert, takes 3-10 trips to various MB dealers to get fixed. And the dealers aren't all that close together, so it can get to be an expensive and time consuming adventure.

I say Kudos to Bill for relating his story and passing on what the problem really was. I have read several other stories of the NOX sensor issue being misdiagnosed, also. It also points out that it pays to keep pushing for a solution if you aren't satisfied with the service and results. It would pay all the owners of B's to pay attention to what goes wrong with other folks vans of the same brand, so they will have an idea of what is up if they have the same thing. No guarantee that the diagnosis will be correct, so it pays to know. I put little notes in the service manual for the Chevy if someone has an odd issue, along with the fix.