19 degrees in South Texas ? ? ?

[Ray B]

We got caught in central Texas but had two days advance notice on the real freezing temperatures and made it down to Weslaco. Luckily it "only" reached a record of 23F on those two consecutive nights, but the freeze periods were shorter and less than 12 hours. The campground power was our problem as we were out from Sunday 845am to Thursday 845am. Thank God for our trusty generator and propane heater.

Ray Brown
normally from Ormond-by-the-Sea, Florida
2012 Pleasure Way Plateau TS

[InterBlog]

Well, for my part in north Galveston County (south of Houston TX), we were without electrical power for around 52 hours, in temperatures as low as 15 degrees F (90% of Galveston County was left off-line as local utilities prioritized service to the more heavily-populated adjacent Harris County). Couple of points of reference:

-- I have two industrial-grade vertical-cylinder storage tanks of 300 gallons each that I use for rainwater collection (landscape watering plus emergency supply). They both froze solid into monolithic 2,500 pound blocks of ice.

-- As part of my landscaping, I have a decorative lily pond, two feet deep, that also froze to the bottom.

Our most valuable asset requiring electricity is a freezer in which we keep hundreds of dollars of home-cooked meals. We didn't initially have a way to power this off-grid, but my husband re-plumbed a part of the propane distribution system on the van so that we can now run the Onan generator off external propane sources, because there's not enough onboard propane capacity to run anything for very long, and we wanted to reserve the onboard supply for warming the van itself. (Edit: The point being to run an extension cord from the van into the house to power the freezer).

I would appreciate any constructive critiques of this design (sourcing is given in this blog post):

PLUMBING AN EXTERNAL PROPANE TANK FOR AN AIRSTREAM INTERSTATE

25-second video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZtMTmR_RYo

[hbn7hj]

The T is usually put before the onboard regulator. Either works, I guess. This had to be done quick and dirty. Having a generator powered van outside was certainly a valuable asset. I think a high pressure propane quick disconnect is a different part number. I use the fitting Extend-a-Stay uses. Not sure what it is called.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

The T is usually put before the onboard regulator. Either works, I guess. This had to be done quick and dirty. Having a generator powered van outside was certainly a valuable asset. I think a high pressure propane quick disconnect is a different part number. I use the fitting Extend-a-Stay uses. Not sure what it is called.

True - and for years, we assumed that was the way it should be done (certainly that's what many published reports claim). But we don't have the physical space required to put the T in that location, so it never got done.

The workaround is to have a separate regulator between the second propane source and the distribution system. Essentially it's a method of duplicating the key components of the onboard assets. The same distribution system is then utilized by two equivalently-configured independent fuel sources.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

................... I would appreciate any constructive critiques of this design (sourcing is given in this blog post):

PLUMBING AN EXTERNAL PROPANE TANK FOR AN AIRSTREAM INTERSTATE

I don't think having the male quick disconnect on the cylinder side is permitted. It's an appliance side connector. I'd assume that you could vent propane if the cylinder valve is open and the male quick disconnect is loose or not connected for some reason.

[markopolo]

I just realized that you're using natural gas conversion kit parts. It's my understanding that natural gas & propane parts aren't mix & match. If you found info supporting that then share the links as I'd like to read about it.

I meant to post a link re: not using the male end of a Quick Disconnect on the cylinder side of the setup but we had a rare internet outage last evening.

This link (old but likely still applicable) seems to indicate that it's not to be used:

https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/Ab...-F2001-rop.pdf

5.3.13 Quick Disconnect Devices.
Quick disconnect devices used downstream of the LP gas regulator shall be permitted where all of the following are met:
(a) The quick disconnect device shall be listed for use with LP-Gas.
(b) The quick disconnect device shall be listed for the specific environment (indoor, out door, or both).
(c) The quick disconnect device shall not be capable of connection to the cylinder portion of a cylinder connection device (CGA 810).

CGA 810 looks like this: https://abingdonpropanex.com/product...-plug-cga-810/

Gas flow direction is probably stamped on the fitting as this photo shows:
gas flow direction.JPG

[InterBlog]

There are two interesting questions in play, and they may prove to be mutually exclusive in whole or in part:

(1) What equipment and configurations NFPA specifies that commercial manufacturers need to use when constructing RVs.

(2) What can be safely accomplished in an RV.

Now that we are past our initial need to kluge together something that worked for our emergency situation, I can look into both in greater detail, and I'll post back on that. Or my husband will.

The immediate question that some folks might have is, "Why deviate at all?"

Because what the van can do in the context of propane power is insufficient from both engineering and logistical perspectives.

It has ALWAYS been insufficient because of the small size of the Class B platform.

That insufficiency becomes far more pronounced during an emergency situation, sure, but it has always held us back, limited us in what we could do. Ask any serious off-gridder whether they would like the option of delivering an external source of propane to their van, and odds are that you are going to get a gushing, "YES!!" (Except for those who have expensive ARV-caliber power systems, for whom a propane option is of little or no incremental value).

So that is why we will pursue this inquiry further, rather than just abandoning the construct now that our emergency has abated (for the moment).

[Rocinante]

This is a very cool mod. Given how electricity prices went crazy in TX last week, for which some folks are now receiving market rate $6,000+ utility bills for the KwH they used during the storm (if they had power), this seems even more useful for folks who didn't lose power but subscribed to a wholesale energy reseller who simply passes on whatever market rates they are charged plus a connection fee.

After making a sizeable investment our home is now blessed with more solar power generation than we currently use, PowerWalls to store some of it, and usually plenty of sunshine. Under "normal conditions," throughout the year we push more power to the grid than we consume. As a result, electric outages and crazy bills won't likely happen to us unless our roof is covered with snow (though in Houston, who would have believed their roof would be covered with ice and snow for any appreciable period), but when it comes to a critical resource like electricity it's good to have a backup for one's backup.

Our van has never had a propane-fired fridge so we don't have that dead-end line to work with, but this is still a great "how we did it" lesson that will serve us well if (when?) we decide to do the same to our van.

BTW, in Central FL much of the critical infrastructure for potable water is above-ground (e.g. significant pipe junctures are above-ground for ease of maintenance access, water lines are not buried as they feed into homes, water lines in homes are on exterior walls, etc.), so if CFL ever gets hit with something crazy like Houston did, folks would be back to the dark ages for access to drinking water even faster than Houston. Here's hoping it never comes to that, because this part of FL is in no way prepared, nor under normal circumstances should it be. However, circumstances are clearly no longer normal. Our critical infrastructure in southern climes, where the biggest threats have traditionally been thunderstorms, hurricanes, and tornadoes, is likley need of emergency planning and upgrades vs. insanely cold weather.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

This is a very cool mod. .....

Yes it is, but the posters here are smart, and will have good points about safety and industry conformance. It's a cool mod that needs to be made as safe as it can be made. I am not certain we have arrived at that point yet - I need more data.

Meanwhile, as hell continues to break loose in terms of the aftermath, there are police guarding every grocery store here and shortages far more severe than anything we faced during the pandemic lock-downs of early 2020. You couldn't buy an egg or a quart of milk right now if your life depended on it. Or a pint of plain yogurt, or many other things.

- Four million Texas households lost their refrigerators.
- One million households in greater Houston alone simultaneously lost the contents of their refrigerators.
- 90% of people living in Galveston County (including us) lost their refrigerators.
- Food producers across Texas lost their entire perishable inventories from lack of power. Farmers had to dump milk and could not power machinery to milk cows.

It goes on, and on, and on. In this context, maintaining your own food becomes as much a public service as an act of personal responsibility. One does not wish to become part of this slow-motion problem which is going to require who knows how long to resolve.

I managed to buy a 5 cubic foot chest freezer that is more suitable for an emergency scenario. It uses less than half the energy of my 20 cubic foot upright freezer, and so it would place an easier load on our Class B's generator if I had to run it that way.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Yes it is, but the posters here are smart, and will have good points about safety and industry conformance. It's a cool mod that needs to be made as safe as it can be made. I am not certain we have arrived at that point yet - I need more data.

Meanwhile, as hell continues to break loose in terms of the aftermath, there are police guarding every grocery store here and shortages far more severe than anything we faced during the pandemic lock-downs of early 2020. You couldn't buy an egg or a quart of milk right now if your life depended on it. Or a pint of plain yogurt, or many other things.

- Four million Texas households lost their refrigerators.
- One million households in greater Houston alone simultaneously lost the contents of their refrigerators.
- 90% of people living in Galveston County (including us) lost their refrigerators.
- Food producers across Texas lost their entire perishable inventories from lack of power. Farmers had to dump milk and could not power machinery to milk cows.

It goes on, and on, and on. In this context, maintaining your own food becomes as much a public service as an act of personal responsibility. One does not wish to become part of this slow-motion problem which is going to require who knows how long to resolve.

I managed to buy a 5 cubic foot chest freezer that is more suitable for an emergency scenario. It uses less than half the energy of my 20 cubic foot upright freezer, and so it would place an easier load on our Class B's generator if I had to run it that way.

Your class b generator is backed up, right?

[hbn7hj]

I wouldn’t expect there to be a problem with the T after the regulator. The T needs a valve.

Usually that is provided by a 1”-20 female fitting with a brass dust cap. There may be other solutions. I found it difficult to find that fitting with the dust cap.

Certainly what you have is gonna work just fine for the time being.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Bud

Your class b generator is backed up, right?

Can you clarify that question? What do you mean backed up?

[hbn7hj]

The only negative I can think of for tapping in downstream of the regulator is inadvertently putting an unregulated source of propane on the line. That would put high pressure propane on your appliances and generator.

That will inevitably happen, by somebody. For a permanent installation the T needs to be ahead of the regulator, even if the regulator has to be moved. Just an opinion.

Thanks for the Houston grocery store pictures. Stunning.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

The only negative I can think of for tapping in downstream of the regulator is inadvertently putting an unregulated source of propane on the line. That would put high pressure propane on your appliances and generator.

That will inevitably happen, by somebody. For a permanent installation the T needs to be ahead of the regulator, even if the regulator has to be moved. Just an opinion.

Thanks for the Houston grocery store pictures. Stunning.

I would never re-sell the van in this configuration. Yes, someone would screw it up. That's why we have technical standards and regulations, because most people don't have the background to understand fully how these systems work.

It is not practicable to re-configure this van's onboard propane system. It would cost so much that it's simply a degenerative proposition, WAY out of alignment with any financial sensibility, if it could even be done at all, which I doubt. For the regulator to be moved, the tank needs to be moved, and there's nowhere to move the tank. It's a Class B with every square inch of under-chassis real estate already claimed by other improvements.

Alternatively, in order to put the T in the optimal location, the regulator and the onboard tank would be separated by such a huge distance that I think it would amount to a safety degradation rather than an enhancement. We want the shortest possible high-pressure transit. The whole point is to get into low pressure territory as expeditiously as possible.

Several months ago, I flirted with the idea of switching to diesel-fired heat via an Espar because of this propane limitation that we have, so that we would have the option to do more cold-weather camping. But if I can safely hook up an external bottle, there's over a thousand bucks many, many DIY hours that I do not have to invest. Plus not only do I get heat, I also get to run my generator, which is not possible if I go the diesel heat route.

The argument can be made that, in an educated owner's hands, an optimized external source feeding the distribution system could be a safER alternative. I can place my satellite propane tank ten feet from my van, exposing the van only to low-pressure flow in the distribution system (we ARE going to procure a 2-stage regulator, BTW - they were sold out last week). As it stands, I sleep on top of the OEM onboard propane tank (it's 2 feet below the bed, under the chassis) with its potential for things to go wrong.

[Boxster1971]

Folks have been adding external propane tanks to their RV's for decades. Most tie in a high pressure line ahead of the regulator with threaded connections. IB's approach uses a quick connect - very clever. But as markopolo pointed out probably not safe or in compliance with NFPA rules. The tank valve features an internal spring-loaded module that will not allow gas to flow from the cylinder until a positive seal has been made at the connection. By connection of an open end hose to the tank valve you bypass the safety feature of the tank valve.

This 10 year old video by the RV Geeks explains some of the pitfalls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jovTYfltUO0

[Boxster1971]

Right after I made that last post I found several e-trailer discussions on hooking up external propane tanks very similar to what IB proposes. Key similarity is the line from aux tank has an open ended male quick-disconnect. In these articles e-trailer is offering parts to connect a high pressure line with open ended male quick-disconnect.

So there are obviously a lot of people doing this same thing - is it safe or not?

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-2-steps...pane-tank.aspx

https://www.etrailer.com/question-326189.html

[booster]

Hydraulic fittings have shutoff in both the male and female in the QD at least some of the time. Perhaps the same is true do some propane models or maybe the hydraulic ones are OK for propane. I have also seen both side valves in air systems to prevent a machine from depressurizing and having stuff move from the pressure release. It is often required in safe shutdown procedure cases that require no movement at shutdown.

[hbn7hj]

The posted video seems to have more hazards than we were contemplating. High pressure line wandering around the RV is one of them. The info about oil precipitating in a high pressure line was news to me as was the 10psi work around.

Looks like Interblog’s original install meets accepted standards.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Right after I made that last post I found several e-trailer discussions on hooking up external propane tanks very similar to what IB proposes. Key similarity is the line from aux tank has an open ended male quick-disconnect. In these articles e-trailer is offering parts to connect a high pressure line with open ended male quick-disconnect.

So there are obviously a lot of people doing this same thing - is it safe or not?

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-2-steps...pane-tank.aspx

https://www.etrailer.com/question-326189.html

Good links.

The MB Sturgis kit would be safe for them to sell it. The kit specific POL connector does have the internal excess flow safety device so if the male 250 fitting was disconnected then the POL end should stop the flow of high pressure gas. From what I read on their website, it appears that the model 250 Quick Disconnect is certified for low pressure up to 0.5 psig but MB Sturgis tested to 250 psig (350 psig in Youtube comments).

My guess is that the excess flow safety feature wouldn't work on a low pressure installation. Just a guess as I don't know for sure. That would be easy enough to test out in the open somewhere though.

If DIYing it, it looks like you'd still have it going against the flow direction arrow.

model 250.jpg

[InterBlog]

RV Geeks are using an Extend-A-Stay which is precisely the device that I don’t have space to install.

Question: Why do people think that the RV tank’s integrated regular is such a superior option to a secondary regulator? Is it simply because the regulations and/or NFPA standards say that any branching should be situated behind it, or is there some other reason? Because those things are crap, basically. I never go anywhere without a spare regulator onboard because I’ve heard so many grim stories about them failing on the road.