New to RVs and Hopeful Warp Core RoadTrekkers

[booster]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

Not sure. I'm in the former.

Dale, the owner, is usually very good about taking care of the customers and a very nice guy besides. His new operations manager, who I met a while ago while there to get some stuff, not so much, I think. Seemed like a typical RV sales type to me. If Dale isn't involved, you may want to get him to intervene. Lake Regions has a very good reputation, and should have some experience with the lithium stuff by now.

It is also where Mumkin got her, used to be lithium, now AGM, unit that was so much trouble for her. They did grant her request to go to the AGMs though, to solve the issues she had.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

If the Balmar is in a tough to see spot, it will be hard to program in place, and you would be better to program it before putting it in, I think, like Nations does.

Concerning the programming, how the absorption time was set would be really weird if the use the AGM setting for lithium, as lithium needs essentially zero absorption time if the voltage is set right. With the 14.4v of the AGM setting, you would really want zero absorption time as you are already past what many would want for state of charge for lithium.

A current model PW owner can clarify this but as far as I know, although their lithium batteries may be charged by a lithium charger I think they still use an OEM alternator and conventional single stage constant voltage (aka absorption) regulator.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Let's start with your original observation that all charging sources (alternator, converter/charger and solar are in parallel and are connected to the common side of the disconnect switch and continue to address the batteries regardless of the position of this switch.

OK, I got that with regard to the alternator and solar inputs. But with your description, I don't get how shore side power functions with the battery switch "off". You indicate that the battery charger is on the common side of the disconnect switch and the inveter is on the load side.. With a stand alone charger that works. But with the RT, for the charger to operate, the inverter must be on, but as you describe it, the inverter is hardwired to the load port of the batteries. If that's the case, it won't operate if the main disconnect switch is activated and without inverter operation, the charger won't operate.

But here's the punch line. With the battery switch off and shore power connected, the inverter will still power up with the disconnect switch "off".
If your description is accurate, when the battery switch is "off", where is the inverter getting power from?

When you are plugged into shore power the inverter gets its power from the shore connection to charge the batteries that are hardwired to the inverter. It also passes the shore power through the inverter to the coach 120v circuits. When you are not connected to shore power the inverter gets its power from the Ecotrek batteries to provide inverted 120v to the coach unless they are all offline in which case the inverter is dead no matter if you have it in or off. Each Ecotrek has a relay on both positive terminals (charge and load) that are controlled by the BMS and both relays are open when the Ecotrek is offline. The GU, solar, and AGM are typically connected to the charge terminals, the inverter and the 12v distribution are connected to the load terminals.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

When you are plugged into shore power the inverter gets its power from the shore connection to charge the batteries that are hardwired to the inverter.

LOL! Aren't we going in circles here? How can the shore power convetrer/charger power up the inverter if the inverter has to be already powered up in order to enable the shore side battery charger? Isn't it pretty well settled that the inverter has to be on for the converter to come to life?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

He said they confirmed the GU is putting out good voltage but plugging in some wire into the Balmar caused sparks, which is why they think the Balmar is bad (from what I gather on the phone).

After thinking about this, their description of alternator "good voltage" may be valid. What they may have done is bypass the regulator and temporarily full field the alternator to verify that the alternator was working properly.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

LOL! Aren't we going in circles here? How can the shore power convetrer/charger power up the inverter if the inverter has to be already powered up in order to enable the shore side battery charger? Isn't it pretty well settled that the inverter has to be on for the converter to come to life?

Think of the unit as what it is, an inverter/charger.

A fundamental difference between an inverter/charger and a converter/charger is that a converter can function as a 12V power supply. Batteries do not need to be in the system to be able to use 12V DC from a converter plugged into the grid.

With inverter/chargers, 12V DC is supplied by the batteries. If no batteries then no 12V DC available.

[WingedRyno]

I'm still trying to understand how it is that despite all batteries being offline after the BMS shut them each down around 20% SOC or so, one came back online overnight on shore power with the inverter switch on but the inverter actually off and 7 of the batteries switch on (but offline with no blue lights).

I'm guessing it's very unlikely the inverter was converting AC to DC without showing on. So it seems most likely that the BMS simply recalculated as the ambient temps dropped over night and one battery (only one of 7 as the 8th was off) popped back online.

[WingedRyno]

Originally Posted by booster

Dale, the owner, is usually very good about taking care of the customers and a very nice guy besides. His new operations manager, who I met a while ago while there to get some stuff, not so much, I think. Seemed like a typical RV sales type to me. If Dale isn't involved, you may want to get him to intervene. Lake Regions has a very good reputation, and should have some experience with the lithium stuff by now.

It is also where Mumkin got her, used to be lithium, now AGM, unit that was so much trouble for her. They did grant her request to go to the AGMs though, to solve the issues she had.

FWIW, they said "mine" is the first EcoTrek they have seen. I haven't heard of Dale, but they did say the owner's name was Scott I think.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

LOL! Aren't we going in circles here? How can the shore power convetrer/charger power up the inverter if the inverter has to be already powered up in order to enable the shore side battery charger? Isn't it pretty well settled that the inverter has to be on for the converter to come to life?

Well, one of us is going in circles and the other is getting dizzy...

As markopolo said, an inverter/charger is different than a standalone inverter (12v DC in and 120v AC out), a standalone charger (120v AC in and a battery charge voltage profile out when connected to a battery), or a standalone converter (120v DC in and regulated 12v DC out with no battery connected).

The inverter/charger has three connections, 120v in, 120v out, and a 12v DC connection to the battery that is an input when not connected to shore power on the 120v input and an output when there is shore power on the 120v input. The RT inverter is different in that the switch must be on for any function to operate including the pass through of 120v shore power from the 120v input to the 120v output. The inverter can get power and be turned on when there is shore power on the 120v input or from the battery connection when not on shore power. If all Ecotrek batteries are offline and you are plugged into shore power the 12v output is unregulated and reported to be very unstable when connected to the coach through the battery relay.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

I'm still trying to understand how it is that despite all batteries being offline after the BMS shut them each down around 20% SOC or so, one came back online overnight on shore power with the inverter switch on but the inverter actually off and 7 of the batteries switch on (but offline with no blue lights).

I'm guessing it's very unlikely the inverter was converting AC to DC without showing on. So it seems most likely that the BMS simply recalculated as the ambient temps dropped over night and one battery (only one of 7 as the 8th was off) popped back online.

Only an RT tech can tell you what happened.
(but they won't)

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

I'm still trying to understand how it is that despite all batteries being offline after the BMS shut them each down around 20% SOC or so, one came back online overnight on shore power with the inverter switch on but the inverter actually off and 7 of the batteries switch on (but offline with no blue lights).

I'm guessing it's very unlikely the inverter was converting AC to DC without showing on. So it seems most likely that the BMS simply recalculated as the ambient temps dropped over night and one battery (only one of 7 as the 8th was off) popped back online.

It is hard to speculate on the operation of the BMS with no details provided by RT on the actual logic they have implemented in the BMS controller. In theory, the BMS could simply open the load terminal relay when discharge reaches 20% SOC and continue operating with the charge terminal connected. At some later point due to charging from the charge point or temperature changes or whatever, the BMS determines that the SOC is high enough above 20% to reconnect the loads. Even with the GU not operating, the solar controller is connected to the charge terminal along with the AGM and there is some level of charge available on the charge terminal. If the BMS disconnects both the load and charge terminals at 20% and continues operating monitoring the SOC, I guess temperature change would be the only thing that could increase the SOC of the cells. With both relays open, the power drain from the BMS could be very low but eventually it would need to shut down completely to prevent cell damage due to over discharge.

Is the RT control logic doing all this? Only RT seems to know...

[WingedRyno]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

If all Ecotrek batteries are offline and you are plugged into shore power the 12v output is unregulated and reported to be very unstable when connected to the coach through the battery relay.

Can you expand upon this. Are you saying that shore power with all batteries offline equates to 12v output? How does it get converted to 12v? Does the inverter accept the AC power and still work to supply 12V output despite batteries all being offline?

[WingedRyno]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

It is hard to speculate on the operation of the BMS with no details provided by RT on the actual logic they have implemented in the BMS controller. In theory, the BMS could simply open the load terminal relay when discharge reaches 20% SOC and continue operating with the charge terminal connected. At some later point due to charging from the charge point or temperature changes or whatever, the BMS determines that the SOC is high enough above 20% to reconnect the loads. Even with the GU not operating, the solar controller is connected to the charge terminal along with the AGM and there is some level of charge available on the charge terminal. If the BMS disconnects both the load and charge terminals at 20% and continues operating monitoring the SOC, I guess temperature change would be the only thing that could increase the SOC of the cells. With both relays open, the power drain from the BMS could be very low but eventually it would need to shut down completely to prevent cell damage due to over discharge.

Is the RT control logic doing all this? Only RT seems to know...

I didn't even think about the obvious...solar was still charging the batteries. Even though it was early morning and the sun was low, perhaps that plus temp was enough to bring one back online?

Mysteries....

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

I didn't even think about the obvious...solar was still charging the batteries. Even though it was early morning and the sun was low, perhaps that plus temp was enough to bring one back online?

Mysteries....

As i recall on the other site-we warned you about this-the mysteries of the roadtrek ecotrek system is that no matter how many they make the same issues keep popping up -ON SOME VANS. there is no consistancy-some work perfectly and some are consistent bummers. the mystery is in the stars

[WingedRyno]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

As i recall on the other site-we warned you about this-the mysteries of the roadtrek ecotrek system is that no matter how many they make the same issues keep popping up -ON SOME VANS. there is no consistancy-some work perfectly and some are consistent bummers. the mystery is in the stars

This van seems to work well minus the Balmar/GU (which I'm sure can be fixed) and perhaps the air conditioner (jury is still out on its performance).

While I admit I haven't yet tested out Alde floor heating or the dumping of the tanks or driving of the vehicle, this van seems to be well within reach of making us happy campers. I just hope that happens sooner rather than later as my credit card is exploding with hotel costs...

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

Can you expand upon this. Are you saying that shore power with all batteries offline equates to 12v output? How does it get converted to 12v? Does the inverter accept the AC power and still work to supply 12V output despite batteries all being offline?

Whenever you are connected to shore power and turn the inverter on, the battery charger in the inverter is attempting to charge the batteries. Without any batteries online the 12v charger output can still be connected to the coach through the main battery switch but with no reference voltage available from any batteries the 12v is very unstable based on reports from many owners. This instability is common for battery chargers when no battery is connected and is probably not a good source of power.

[booster]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

FWIW, they said "mine" is the first EcoTrek they have seen. I haven't heard of Dale, but they did say the owner's name was Scott I think.

Mumkin had an Ecotrek from there, I am nearly certain. She had tons of problems, so they would certainly know about it.

I did some looking, and one place I found said Dale bought Monticello RV Center last year. The owner there apparently was Scott Kunz, who I think is the guy I met just looking at pix. He is now listed as an "operating partner" at Lake Regions and Monticello RV, what ever that title means.

AFAIK, the sale has been done pretty quietly. I know I didn't hear about it.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by WingedRyno

This van seems to work well minus the Balmar/GU (which I'm sure can be fixed) and perhaps the air conditioner (jury is still out on its performance).

While I admit I haven't yet tested out Alde floor heating or the dumping of the tanks or driving of the vehicle, this van seems to be well within reach of making us happy campers. I just hope that happens sooner rather than later as my credit card is exploding with hotel costs...

tell them you won't close unless they pay your hotel bills-however if your not satisfied-buy a plane ticket home and go.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

Mumkin had an Ecotrek from there, I am nearly certain. She had tons of problems, so they would certainly know about it.

I did some looking, and one place I found said Dale bought Monticello RV Center last year. The owner there apparently was Scott Kunz, who I think is the guy I met just looking at pix. He is now listed as an "operating partner" at Lake Regions and Monticello RV, what ever that title means.

AFAIK, the sale has been done pretty quietly. I know I didn't hear about it.

"An operating partner is a term used by venture capital (VC) and private equity (PE) firms to describe a role dedicated to working with privately held companies to increase value."

Bud

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

"An operating partner is a term used by venture capital (VC) and private equity (PE) firms to describe a role dedicated to working with privately held companies to increase value."

Bud

Fancy title. That would kind of confirm he was the guy I met who was running the place, and is an employee in reality, not an owner. That would fit in with Dale buying Monticello from him news I saw.

If Wingedryno can get a chance to talk to Dale, I do think it would be a good idea. He has always tried to put the customers first, from all I have heard and seen.