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[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

I interpret the idling rule from MB as 2-3 hours continuous, not cumulative.

If the Volt-Start kicks in for 35 min, off for 30 mins, and kicks in again. That should be ok.


My interpretation could be wrong. YMMV.

The understanding, as I have heard it, is that it is cumulative between highway drive regenerations.

[Keyne]

Originally Posted by BBQ

something to consider

Great video. Thank you for posting. It explained it very simply.

How would periodic idling be different than short trips? Is there an assumption idling at low revs creates less soot and there less of an issue than the short trips at higher revs? IMO it does seem riskier to do the idling but I have no experience with this... However getting a straight answer would be difficult.
Have there been warranty claims denied due to perceived extended idling? I really like the idea of using a second alternator vs a generator.

[BBQ]

The root of the problem is not idling or length of trips,
but the operation of the engine in such a way that
the DPF temperature could not rise high enough to burn off the particulates.

If the 2nd alternator is putting enough load on the engine,
the engine speed will rise above idle,
then there will not be a problem to the DPF.

[BBQ]

Bear in mind the Europeans have been using diesel engines for many year; these are new, but not untried technologies.

[JimDavisHouston]

This is all quite interesting, and I'm actually learning a lot.

Here's my take on the whole thing;

When laying over with no hook-ups, I'll fire up the generator a few times a day for the Microwave, Coffee Pot, Toaster, etc. Coach Battery gets charged while running. If it gets hot at night, the generator will run the AC. (Furnace is 12v Propane, so no issues)

But anyway, it all gets done, and I don't worry about the engine. It's isolated from the coach. I know it will start in the morning, and no issues. Just seems to me like a lot less trouble & worry's.

[Keyne]

Originally Posted by BBQ

The root of the problem is not idling or length of trips,
but the operation of the engine in such a way that
the DPF temperature could not rise high enough to burn off the particulates.

If the 2nd alternator is putting enough load on the engine,
the engine speed will rise above idle,
then there will not be a problem to the DPF.

I think that's the question. Does the engine generator create enough heat to burn off the soot? I was assuming that if short trips cannot generate enough heat than most likely a second alternator at high idle couldn't. I have been hearing you should run the engine 30-45 mins at highway speeds to clear the soot after the idle period.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Keyne

Have there been warranty claims denied due to perceived extended idling?

That is a good question. I don't see how there possibly could be, given that long idling is not mentioned in the warranty text, as far as I have been able to see. If they don't clearly proscribe some action, they can't very well use that action to deny a claim. For that matter, how could they even prove long idling? Plus, don't forget that they sell options that are explicitly designed for long-idle applications, such as ambulances and take-off devices.

[Bruceper]

Originally Posted by avanti

For that matter, how could they even prove long idling?

Computers tell all these days, and keep records for "warranty purposes".

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bruceper

Computers tell all these days, and keep records for "warranty purposes".

Some of the stuff I have seen showed logs that appeared to have come from the computer, and included times between regens, DPF temps and pressures, etc. I would guess that would be typical.

A guy I worked with was a VW fan and when he got his last one a couple of years ago, he went to gas. He said that the VW forums were full of folks complaining about VW not honoring the DPF and EGR warranty claims based on maintenance and conditions. Again, second or third hand information, but interesting.

The Ford literature is full of disclaimers on the warranty for their diesels, and do include a lot of "unless equipped with ambulance package", or other special use package. They likely do have something different in them, as Avanti has mentioned. It may be something like the extra fuel nozzle setups we have heard about, that can generate the extra heat for the regen on demand.

[Keyne]

Originally Posted by avanti

That is a good question. I don't see how there possibly could be, given that long idling is not mentioned in the warranty text, as far as I have been able to see. If they don't clearly proscribe some action, they can't very well use that action to deny a claim. For that matter, how could they even prove long idling? Plus, don't forget that they sell options that are explicitly designed for long-idle applications, such as ambulances and take-off devices.

As mentioned they could prove idle times possibly with the onboard diagnostic data. However, as you mention:
- Not in the manual as a warning or guidance to not idle
- They sell high idle and second alternator bracket for exactly the purpose of charging items or running tools.

If we haven't heard issues of not honoring DEF filter replacements under warranty then it seems like its OK to idle. It would be interesting to search/access the service notifications they send to MB service centers. However, only time will tell... they could change the documentation and approach at any time. Regardless of what they say thought... it does seem that practically the idling would not create enough heat to clear the soot so it would be an issue at some point regardless of who pays for the fix. How much does a DEF filter replacement cost?

[BBQ]

.

A lot of people got stuck on this "idle" notion. Why?

Can people with underhood generators chime in on the engine speed when charging under various loads conditions?

?

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Keyne

::
... it does seem that practically the idling would not create enough heat to clear the soot
::

That is your speculation.
It might be true or it might not be true in real life, but it is your speculation.

Idling is specifically permitted by the manufacturer with specific instruction on intervals and remedies.



It is ok to be a worry wort, but don't kill yourself over this.

[booster]

Aside from not being able to generate enough heat to clean the DPF at idle, there may be the issue of too much heat if the van is not moving down the road to cool things off.

I found this quote from a Ford diesel supplement manual. It is only for the cutaways, it was stated. Apparently, Ford has had some DPF issues with vehicles with lots of "stationary" operation, and is now offering an add on controller so they can be regened at idle, albeit with lots of safety rules about fires and burns. The place I found it said only offered to fleets, which would make sense, as the fire issue would preclude letting the general population have it.

This is the add on box they are using.

Fleet Tools


6.7L Diesel Supplement Info:

Operator commanded regeneration (OCR) (if equipped)
If your vehicle is operated with significant stationary operation, passive
and active regeneration may not sufficiently clean the DPF system. OCR
allows you to manually start regeneration of the diesel particulate filter
(DPF) at idle (while stationary) to clean the DPF. If you are not sure
whether your vehicle is equipped with this feature, contact your
authorized dealer.

When to perform OCR

Use the OCR feature when the

DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST FILTER

message appears in the message center and:
•

the operator is not able to drive in manner that allows effective

automatic cleaning (active regeneration),

•

or the operator instead wishes to manually start regeneration

(cleaning) of the DPF while the vehicle is idle (stationary).

OCR precautions and safe exhaust position
WARNING:

Failure to comply with the following instructions for

operator commanded regeneration (OCR) may result in fire,
serious injury, death and/or property damage.
Before you start OCR, observe/do the following:

•

Place the vehicle in P (Park) with the parking brake set on stable,

level ground.

•

The vehicle must not be parked in a structure.

•

The vehicle must be away from any obstructions within 10 - 15 feet of

vehicle,

•

and must be away from materials that can easily combust or melt such

as: paper, leaves, petroleum products, fuels, plastics and other dry
organic material, such as grass.

•

Make sure there is a minimum of 1/8 tank of fuel.

•

Make sure all fluids are at proper levels.

Make sure that the louvers (holes) located at the tip of the exhaust are
also clear of any obstructions as they are used to introduce fresh air into
the tailpipe to cool the exhaust gas as it leaves. See

Exhaust under the

Cleaning

chapter for more information.

How to start operator commanded regeneration (OCR)
WARNING:

Stay clear of exhaust tip during regeneration. You or

others can be burned.

Note:

OCR will not be allowed to operate if the service engine soon

light is illuminated

Note:

During the use of OCR, you may observe a light amount of white

smoke. This is normal.
1. Start with the vehicle engine fully warmed.
2. Press the Info button on the steering wheel until the message center
reads

EXHAUST FILTER XXX% FULL.

3. If the DPF needs cleaning and the vehicle is warmed up, a message
requesting permission to initiate filter cleaning is displayed

EXH XXX%

FULL CLEAN Y/N

. Answering yes to this prompt and then following

prompts will initiate OCR. Be sure to understand each prompt. If you are
not sure what is being asked by each prompt, contact your authorized
dealer

[markopolo]

If we can avoid words like stuck and worry wort etc then there's a chance of continuing the discussion and everyone learning something

This topic comes up every so often and can get some passionate opinions

I looked at the Ram (Promaster) and Ford (Transit) manuals a couple of years ago and posted this:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post23703

Note that Ram suggests to avoid prolonged idling in the Promaster Diesel Supplement.

Re: the question about idle RPM's under load - it would be interesting if owners shared some info. A lot of owners don't seem to be the technically inclined type though.

The RPM's at idle don't change much under load with my van. They never get near 1000 rpm for example if left up to the computer. I generally flick the switch on my dash to 1,070 rpm when running loads like the microwave oven because I think it is a good thing to do.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If we can avoid words like stuck and worry wort etc then there's a chance of continuing the discussion and everyone learning something

This topic comes up every so often and can get some passionate opinions

I looked at the Ram (Promaster) and Ford (Transit) manuals a couple of years ago and posted this:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post23703

Note that Ram suggests to avoid prolonged idling in the Promaster Diesel Supplement.

Re: the question about idle RPM's under load - it would be interesting if owners shared some info. A lot of owners don't seem to be the technically inclined type though.

The RPM's at idle don't change much under load with my van. They never get near 1000 rpm for example if left up to the computer. I generally flick the switch on my dash to 1,070 rpm when running loads like the microwave oven because I think it is a good thing to do.

All of the manufacturers suggests to avoid PROLONGED idling. Not just Ram.

The first questions is,
when using the underhood generator, is the engine in "idle"?

?


markopolo you have been hammering at this for a long time now (multiple years), you should know the answer.

[booster]

It appears that many, if not most, of the commercial vehicles that have high stationary times have a provision for regen of the DPF at idle. I have found it for the big buses, tow trucks, etc and I would expect the ambulances and firetrucks would also need and have it.

They all talk about the heat/fire issue as a big deal with all of them, and all of them try to get the drivers to do a driving regen before the idling one with lots of progressive warning lights and procedures.

One question I would have for the folks that have the MB diesels is if they ever get warnings that they need to go do a driving regen? The stuff I have been looking at usually has progressive lights that go from do it soon to engine power reduction. The inference is that if you do the necessary regen for the given warning, you will avoid DPF early plugging. If that is the case with he MB diesels, as long as you did a driving regen when the warnings showed up, you might be within the window of keeping the DPF clean, and not have to guess if you are idling too long. It would be interesting to see what MB said about not worrying about forcing a regen until a warning comes on, as it would be a big PITA for owners to try to keep track of idling time to fit into the hourly rules MB has usually quoted. That would also be a big part of a warranty claim, I would think, as the history would show the warnings.

As far as warranty refusals, it appears Cummins and Dodge have had some kind major thing going on, as there is a class action suit against them for DPF plugging/failure issues.

[Keyne]

Originally Posted by BBQ

That is your speculation.
It might be true or it might not be true in real life, but it is your speculation.

Idling is specifically permitted by the manufacturer with specific instruction on intervals and remedies.



It is ok to be a worry wort, but don't kill yourself over this.

I am not a worry wort, but spending $100K on an RV with a setup that could harm the engine or bring about greater repair expense seems kind of stupid to me. Also, I find it interesting to work through issues like this to greater understand things... this reminds of the people driving Toyota Tacoma's overloaded with truck campers that say that there are 100's of them out on the road so its fine... dont worry... neither approach makes a lot of sense to me but people still do it. Just seems rationale to me to evaluate the risks. Heck I may decide to go with a standard generator instead of an engine one but understanding both pros and cons for me is part of the process.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by BBQ

...........................

The first questions is,
when using the underhood generator, is the engine in "idle"?

...............................................

Short answer: yes

Advanced RV offers fast idle.
Roadtrek doesn't offer that as far as I know.

Some older Roadtreks had to revved to 2500 rpm or so to activate the alternator but that would be just a momentary thing.

With my van I find normal idle rpm (low 600's) and faster (1,070) acceptable from a noise point of view. More rpm = louder. 1360 RPM for example would attract too much attention to the van with people probably wondering what is going on. I would be more suited to a work related application.

Hopefully some Sprinter folks will share some rpm related info.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Keyne

I am not a worry wort, but spending $100K on an RV with a setup that could harm the engine or bring about greater repair expense seems kind of stupid to me. Also, I find it interesting to work through issues like this to greater understand things... this reminds of the people driving Toyota Tacoma's overloaded with truck campers that say that there are 100's of them out on the road so its fine... dont worry... neither approach makes a lot of sense to me but people still do it. Just seems rationale to me to evaluate the risks. Heck I may decide to go with a standard generator instead of an engine one but understanding both pros and cons for me is part of the process.

It is ok to be cautious.
As a matter of fact, you (and me and everybody) should be cautious.

but don't invent something to worry about.

You are not the first one to encounter these questions.
The Sprinter engine is not new.
It is not new in North America. (10+ yrs?)
And it is not new in Europe. It is one of the most popular delivery van in Europe.
Various iteration of these engines are in thousands of Mercedes Benz passenger cars and SUVs.

The manufacturers (ALL manufacturers) have specific instructions on engine care.

Idling is specifically permitted by the manufacturer,
with specific instruction on intervals and remedies.


If you have worries, the worries should be of something outside of the manufacturer's specifications.

[booster]

Re the rpm issue, in the stuff I saw they talked as much about oil dilution as they did about DPF plugging at idle, especially at cold start or in cold weather, which both increase fuel into the oil rates. Caterpillar actually listed a diesel powered heater (like an tank heater on a car) to keep the engine water temp up high enough when idling to reduce oil dilution. Most also talked about being at least over 1000rpm to be safer, and that if a regen is happening at idle dilution is worse because of the added fuel to get the high exhaust temps.