Winnebago Trend / Itasca Viva on Ram ProMaster

[markopolo]

2014 Winnebago Trend informative video of still photos from Lichtsinn Motors:

[youtube:1hnws3cg]7YuKqepFtB4[/youtube:1hnws3cg]

[mlts22]

My only concern is that the privacy curtains that come down... how tough is it to take those down and clean them should they get soiled. They don't seem to look easily removable. However, a 24 foot "C" (well, technically a B+ since there is not a cabover bed) that can sleep six is pretty good for a US design.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by mlts22

My only concern is that the privacy curtains that come down... how tough is it to take those down and clean them should they get soiled. They don't seem to look easily removable. However, a 24 foot "C" (well, technically a B+ since there is not a cabover bed) that can sleep six is pretty good for a US design.

actually C-there is no real b plus designation

[markopolo]

As Gerry points out - no doubt about it - this is a Class C But it will compete more against other Class B's than the 30' + Class C's out there.

Winnebago has posted a few Hershey Show photos on their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Winnebag ... 5802020790

Check out their Facebook page for larger images.

2014 Winnebago Trend 23B


2014 Winnebago Trend 23L at Hershey RV Show


2014 Winnebago Trend 23L at Hershey RV Show


2014 Winnebago Trend 23L at Hershey RV Show

[mlts22]

Odd thing from the WGO website -- the roof is a rubber (EPDM or TPO) membrane. Not sure how big a downer this is.

Admin edit: confirmed by email from Winnebago - the roof covering on the Winnebago Trend is fiberglass.
The reference to the "roof skin" in the warranty led to the comment.

12-month/15,000-mile basic limited warranty *
36-month/36,000-mile limited warranty on structure *
10-year limited parts-and-labor warranty on roof skin *

* See your dealer for complete warranty information.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by mlts22

Odd thing from the WGO website -- the roof is a rubber (EPDM or TPO) membrane. Not sure how big a downer this is.

hey mlts22-were exactly does it say that-not that i think it's a big deal.
epdm and tpo are proven roofs.

however the warranty info -10 yrs for the roof-is the exact same wording on views warranty.


since i did not know anything about rubber roofs-although i've heard about fibreglass- i googled rv rubber roofs-and to my suprise there is no consensus. so if i buy a trend i won;t worry about it.

[markopolo]

The Winnebago Trend has a fiberglass roof covering - confirmed by email from Winnebago.

[mlts22]

Thanks, I didn't see the "fiberglass" membrane. I stand corrected (and embarrassed, as I made this same mistake on rv.net.)

EPDM and TPO are working roofs, but they usually have so many caulked joints at places where water gets blown in from the road that eventually they will leak. Almost all metal and fiberglass roofs are folded around the top of the rig so of water gets past a caulk joint, it doesn't matter as much. Of course, seals around skylights and vents are an issue in both cases, but the fewer caulk joints, the better.

[Gerry D]

I must say, after waiting 6 months to get a look at the Winnebago Trend, I am very disappointed. Steering is not tilt, ultra leather will not be on the seats, which are very hard, and adjusting the seat is a bear to do. No spare tire, you get a can of slime. The electric overhead bed was already dead on the display model at the Tampa show. Guess I'll keep looking at Coachmen 220LE and the LTV libero.

[markopolo]

Gerry - new seats might have airbags as part of the overall safety package & if so RV upfitters will most likely not change them. We're anticipating that possibility in Class B's and maybe it will apply to Class C's.

[mlts22]

The Camping World locations are getting Vivas in, and are definitely accepting preorders.

So far, from what I can tell without physically getting in one by what a dealer told me:

1: The bench seat in the 23L is a lot more comfortable than the Travato's seat. No bell ringing if one gets the port side seat on a trip.
2: The 23L's bed is a bit scrawny, 49" x 75" compared to a 60" x 80" queen, but not too narrow.
3: The sink on the 23L is a bit small, but it does come with a good amount of accessories to maximize usefulness. The 23B's sink is bigger, but you lose a permanent bed for more bathroom/kitchen space, and being the lazy person I am, I prefer just putting the rig in park, walking back, flopping into a bed, as opposed to having to drop it down, then fetch/attach the ladder.
4: Towing capacity is scrawny. 2000 pounds. This isn't a vehicle for running with a toad, but at best maybe a hitch mounted cargo rack or a bicycle rack. I'm assuming a 200 pound tongue weight. I'd be over the limit if I used a Bumper Dumper with this. However, I'd be running toadless, and if I were carrying something, it would be a small cargo trailer well within the weight limit of the hitch, so this isn't a deal killer for me.
5: No clue on what converter it uses. I assume a three stage, but if not, first thing I'd do is make sure it has a three stage (or even better a five stage).
6: No ladder. To me, this isn't much, but it would be nice to hop on top if needed.
7: No clue on water pump. It would be nice to toss on an accumulator tank if the pump is a single speed to reduce short cycling.
8: No clue on road noise.

[Mike]

More and more it seems like Winnie really jumped into the Dodge chassis with both feet, and I'm not sure whether it was wise to do that on this chassis. It seems like there are too many deficiencies to ignore, both in the Trend and the Travato. I expect they may pay a hefty price for their haste, downstream.
I think the smart money may stay on the sidelines, and wait until the Transit starts to be used as a base for conversion companies. Sight unseen, it still is sounding like a better starting point for either a B or small C.

[mlts22]

I think you are right. Winnebago jumped in completely, assuming they could make Euro-like motorhomes... but the problem is that there are so many disparities between the two areas. The main reason why I consider the Trend is that it is narrow enough (90 inches) so it can fit into a driveway, and it can be used toadless.

I have a feeling other RV makers may use the ProMaster frame, because it is cheaper than the Transit. This is one reason it is popular in Europe. However, the full size "C"s on the E-450 frame are good sellers, and what may happen is that they just keep the same identical 102" wide box, but move to the Chevy Express 4500 van frame, and business will go on as usual.

Time will tell... I think the Trend will be like the Rialta -- a rig with a following. However, if it wasn't the case that I need to run toadless and parking, I'd save $20,000 and go with a short Minnie Winnie with almost the same floor plan as the 23L. Thankfully, the Trend doesn't have that many annoyances, other than having to drop the bed down in the 23B floorplan and the general paucity of outside storage on both rigs. The Girard water heater, once used to it, is a nice thing to have, especially at FHU.

[Mike]

I'm still completely undecided about which way to go, so for now we'll stick with the Roadtrek. It's the devil we know, and have some experience dealing with the deficiencies, as we see them.

I am now leaning towards something like a small C or A, on either the E350 or E450 chassis, but definitely with the Triton V10 engine and drive train. A basic requirement we have decided is that whatever we get, it has to be able to hold it's own on a 6%+ grade up hill at interstate speeds, and I think that engine can do it, unless it gets completely overwhelmed by the coach builder's additions. If we found something on a GM chassis with similar power to weight numbers, it would work too. No brand loyalty.
We're looking at different places for different makes, models, and options.
Manufacturer - Thor/Forest River/Coachman lead the pack based on specs online and from what I've seen in person. Not overly impressed by Winnebago offerings so far.
Size - probably something under 25' but if the value and layout were better, a few inches over is OK.
Equipment/layout - gotta have a full bath, perma-bed, decent galley, highest capacity fresh water tank and a generator for off grid time, and decent storage inside and out. I like the Axis/Vegas, the FourWinds 22E, and some Forest River and Coachmen models that are similar. Price will probably be a deciding factor, if the layouts and equipment are close.
New or used - Either way, it will be based on price, but gently used and pre-depreciated would be fine.


I'm still not sold on anything on a new unproven chassis, and that includes the Promaster chassis. Personal preference, I guess. I know you like the Promaster's parent, the Ducato. When I first became aware of the Ducato chassis on an import we saw about 5 years ago in Bryce Canyon, Utah (see pics in the photo gallery section on here), I did some research and almost every complaint about them was drive train related, specifically the transmissions were often unreliable. Google "Ducato problems", and you'll see a fair bit of commentary on them, going back more than a few years. Some of the angriest criticisms border on hatred. I have to assume that the Promaster won't have these problems because the drive train is the Pentastar V6, and whatever transmission they pair up with it. It still just bothers me that a lot of the engineering was a joint Chrysler/Fiat project, and that's enough for me to be suspicious.
I just put ducato problems in the search box, and placed the cursor between the two words, and google filled in the following words,

[mlts22]

As an alternative, Nexus RV makes a 24 foot model with a large slide, and they can build it on the E-450 chassis with a greater tow rating than the generic 5000 pounds (I think they can go to 7500, but not sure.)

Were my storage issues not so pressing, I'd seriously consider this route because a short E-450 can easily handle 6% grades, can be configured with a on-demand water heater, as well as with more boondocking-friendly features. I would go with the 5500 watt Onan and a 50 amp connection because it would give me two A/Cs (with heat strips for cold weather), as well as the furnace. Nothing beats the E-450 chassis for knowing that it will turn over and run in the morning. Plus, there are those who will clap two turbos on the V-10 engine and re-tune it so it doesn't lose power at higher elevations (basically a poor man's EcoBoost engine.)

[Mike]

I couldn't agree more, and, it's probably a few bucks cheaper than the MB alternatives with similar specs.
Actually the Triton V10 has better HP and torque numbers than it's peers, with the exception of the Chev 6.0L V8. The Chev has more HP, but at close to 4500 rpms, so maybe you wouldn't see it that often, I don't know.
In my search for more space, lower price, the best alternatives I found were the Thor Axis, and some of the smaller class C models, also made by Thor. They are all built on either the E350 or E450 chassis and come with the 5.4L V8 which might get better fuel economy, or the 6.8L V10 which appears to be a workhorse.
The wild card in the class B, small C niche, is still the Transit.
I added a link to the one of the other Promaster threads about the Fiat 500L recall for transmission problems. One of the Ducato complaint threads a few years back mentioned owners suddenly weren't able to shift them into reverse. The Fiat 500L has problems shifting into or out of Park. IMO, it all adds up, over time, to making consumers doubt the overall QA of the full range of products.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Mike

I couldn't agree more, and, it's probably a few bucks cheaper than the MB alternatives with similar specs.
Actually the Triton V10 has better HP and torque numbers than it's peers, with the exception of the Chev 6.0L V8. The Chev has more HP, but at close to 4500 rpms, so maybe you wouldn't see it that often, I don't know.
In my search for more space, lower price, the best alternatives I found were the Thor Axis, and some of the smaller class C models, also made by Thor. They are all built on either the E350 or E450 chassis and come with the 5.4L V8 which might get better fuel economy, or the 6.8L V10 which appears to be a workhorse.
The wild card in the class B, small C niche, is still the Transit.
I added a link to the one of the other Promaster threads about the Fiat 500L recall for transmission problems. One of the Ducato complaint threads a few years back mentioned owners suddenly weren't able to shift them into reverse. The Fiat 500L has problems shifting into or our of Park. IMO, it all adds up, over time, to making consumers doubt the overall QA of the full range of products.

I think I would take the 6.8 V10 over the 5.4 Ford, 6.0 or 8.1 Chevy. It is a real truck engine, and it is not an accident that the V10s are dragging around most of the bigger gas powered RVs. Big torque, lower rpm, plenty of cooling, very good reliability, in general. Most anybody can fix them. Speaking to folks in campgrounds, you here very few complaints about them. Only downside would be mileage, but I would rather live with lower mileage than not enough power. The ECOboost may outdo the V10, but time will tell as they aren't dragging around any big stuff yet.

[Mike]

Yes.
I forgot about the 8.1L Chev, but it's so big, and the fuel economy would likely be worse than the Ford V10, I hadn't considered it as a possibility. They do use them in some larger gas class A motorhomes, I believe. And the 2500 series trucks? I wonder what the smallest application might be that would use them and benefit from the 8.1L specs? I read online that the numbers are close to the diesels, that many people switch to diesel engines, rather than get the gasser with the poor mileage. Sort of makes sense, depending on the application.

[booster]

8.1 Chevy



6.8 Ford

[mlts22]

I've seen some VERY poorly maintained motorhomes, and the 6.8 V10 still keeps going. I admit, I'm not well versed on the 8.1 Chevy, but I've heard few complaints about it, so that in itself is a very big plug for that engine.

Call me naiive, but for some tasks, there is no substitute for cubes. The EcoBoost can do more than the Pentastar V6... but there are just times where displacement is what counts.

Another factor is that neither the EcoBoost nor the Pentastar V6 have seen heavy duty usage. The F-150 may be a decent pickup, but that is Ford's grocery getter model. I wonder how an EB engine would do in a heavier duty pickup that is constantly towing around five digits worth of payload offroad on a constant basis, and not just in the truck ads.

Long term, I'm sure turbocharging or some other way of shoving air down the engine's throat might be the way to go, especially to combat power loss in higher elevations, but there is something about a large displacement gasser. Yes, it might chug fuel, but it does the job with very little relative maintenance (no "A"/"B" stuff that only can be done at a dealership), and has a long service life. To boot, the Ford/Chevy engines can be fixed almost anywhere.

Unfortunately, it seems like things are moving to the high-revving, small displacement engines, similar to how the auto industry moved from V8s to V6s and four-bangers. Maybe Ford can make an EB V8 that can handle the same numbers that the venerable V-10 can. Time will tell.