Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 ?

[mikeli2016]

Hello all,


has anyone had experience with the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000? why is it so much lighter than Magnum / Victron?

The Xantrex is listed at 18.6lbs. That's even lighter than my current 1000w Magnum.

The Victron / Magnum 3000 are both over 40 lbs

I'm considering it because its size profile, it's probably the only inverter that i can fit in the space i need.

[Davydd]

I requested and suggested the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000w in my next Advanced RV (ARV) for the weight and space savings. They looked at it and said it would work. They were installing the Xantrex Freedom SW 3012 3000w in their vans at the time. I think since then I saw the Freedom XC Pro in one of their videos.

[avanti]

I have been curious about this, too.
The older high-end inverters are much heavier because they have big, heavy duty magnetics. Presumably the newer designs have replaced the magnetics with active electronics, which would be smaller, lighter and cheaper. I have been wondering if there is any advantage to using the old-school designs, or whether the technology has just moved on.

[mikeli2016]

Freedom SW 3000w is over 70lbs while it's got the same rating as the Freedom XC Pro 3000w @ 18.6lbs.


The XC Pro has to be using electronics instead of big heavy transformers

technology has definitely moved on

It's probably the more cost effective / efficient way. modern electronics like computers, laptops, monitors... their power supplies have no transformers.

home solar inverters have gotten quite small now also.... the inverter for my 7.6kw solar, from SolarEdge, is smaller than the 1000w Magnum in my van.

and then Tesla cars... if it uses a transformer, it would be hundreds of pounds and bulky as hell.

[JohnnyFry]

There are 2 types of pure sine wave inverters: the first type “ low frequency inverter” uses heavy iron transformers and operates at the fundamental frequency of 50 or 60 Hz. It is typically very heavy because of the weight of the transformers. The second type “high frequency inverter” creates the 60 Hz sine wave output using pulse width modulation and output filters. This allows the use of very light toroidal transformers as the signal at that point is very high frequency (100kHz or thereabouts). Bottom line: both types produce sine wave power with less than 5% harmonic distortion. Some say that the low frequency models react better to surge loads.

[mikeli2016]

i think the only electronic in my house that still have a transformer, are the vintage tube amplifier and the AV receiver....

time to adapt to new technology

[markopolo]

Easy way to understand it is to remember:

Light (high frequency) inverters are for light loads (resistive loads).
Heavy (low frequency) inverters are for heavy loads (inductive loads).

Obviously both types can run resistive and inductive loads. High frequency inverters are derated for inductive loads.

It's more to do with long term durability and reliability than just being able to run an inductive load when the inverter is new. Arcing at the transfer switch is cumulatively damaging for example.

Example: The heavy 3000W Samlex EVO can handle a very brief 9000W surge and has parallel transfer switches.

Some info from Magnum here: https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/kn...equency-vs-low

[MobileCabin]

This is an interesting inverter/charger. I would usually guess that at that weight and size it is a high frequency inverter for light loads as mentioned by marcopolo. But according to their sales literature (Inverter Charger | Freedom XC PRO Inverter/Charger | Xantrex) they give an impressive:


Extended Surge Rating: Surges to 2X continuous power for 5 seconds for motor loads


For comparison, the info off a Magnum MSH3012M is:


5 sec surge power (real watts) 3900


I am surprised to see the Xantrex to have that much greater surge capacity.



What might also be happening in RVs is that the surge requirement of the various electrical loads (refrigerators, microwaves, A/Cs etc) might not be as great as decades ago so now there is less need for a beefy low frequency inverter. Still I like the Magnum, particularly when it comes to tech support.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Easy way to understand it is to remember:

Light (high frequency) inverters are for light loads (resistive loads).
Heavy (low frequency) inverters are for heavy loads (inductive loads).

Obviously both types can run resistive and inductive loads. High frequency inverters are derated for inductive loads.

It's more to do with long term durability and reliability than just being able to run an inductive load when the inverter is new. Arcing at the transfer switch is cumulatively damaging for example.

Example: The heavy 3000W Samlex EVO can handle a very brief 9000W surge and has parallel transfer switches.

Some info from Magnum here: https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/kn...equency-vs-low

Thanks for this. Excellent link.

So, this suggests that this is NOT a situation of the technology having "moved on", but rather two different technologies with different plusses and minuses. In particular, it appears that if you want to do things like run your A/C from batteries, you are well-advised to get an expensive, heavy "low frequency" inverter. My big and heavy Outback FXV2812M 2.8KW inverter has always been able to start and run our rooftop A/C without raising a sweat.

The referenced article also claims that low freq. inverters generate less heat, which implies that they are more efficient (although the article doesn't seem to actually claim that). Producing less heat is itself a significant plus, especially if it means quieter fans.

So, I guess that next time around, I will stick with a low freq. unit. I do wonder, though, if it isn't just a matter of time before the high freq. designs catch up.

[markopolo]

That's how I see it - if you have the space and the budget then there's less chance of future disappointment with a low frequency brand name inverter.

There are clues in their literature that it's lighter duty:

Freedom XC 3000 (copied today)

The wattage rating applies to resistive loads such as incandescent lights.

the largest you can expect to run is ½ hp

compared to

Freedom SW 3000 (low frequency)

the largest you can expect to run is one horsepower

If space or budget constraints exist then adding an air conditioner easy start type device might be needed.

1 star reviews can sometimes be more helpful than 5 star. Folks seem to be excited by their purchase and review it too soon after purchasing. https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...ews-filter-bar

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by markopolo

That's how I see it - if you have the space and the budget then there's less chance of future disappointment with a low frequency brand name inverter.

There are clues in their literature that it's lighter duty:

Freedom XC 3000 (copied today)
compared to

Freedom SW 3000 (low frequency)
If space or budget constraints exist then adding an air conditioner easy start type device might be needed.

1 star reviews can sometimes be more helpful than 5 star. Folks seem to be excited by their purchase and review it too soon after purchasing. https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...ews-filter-bar

That link is to reviews of the XC 2000, not the XC Pro 3000...

[markopolo]

Hopefully there will a few reviews of the XC Pro after a year or two of operation.

SW XC XC Pro.JPG


-------------------------

[Arlo]

For a constant watt rating, would one expect the no-load amp draw to be smaller or larger for a high frequency (vs low frequency) inverter/charger? The fact sheet for the SW 3000 states 3a DC, but I couldn’t find the no-load draw for the XC Pro 3000. Interesting thread - just curious, but clueless.

[mikeli2016]

the HF inverters always draw much less amp than LF transformer types.

there are vidoes on youtube that talk about this.

I think eventually HF inverters will be in most RVs, due to space, cost savings... and we don't really run constant heavy loads all the time.

it's just these companies don't innovate fast enough, most are just sticking to "if it works don't change it" principle. transformer circuitry are rather simple to design, and it's tried and true for decades.

if Tesla use HF inverters and their cars are lasting hundreds of thousand of miles, HF inverter is the future. the power draw in EV motors are insane.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by mikeli2016

the HF inverters always draw much less amp than LF transformer types.

If that is true, how can the LF units "run less hot" as the link claims?

[booster]

Our Magnum MS2000 uses 1.4 amps at idle, but is idle current an indication of which does better at near maximum load?

[JohnnyFry]

I'll second that opinion.

[booster]

I think what may go on with the HF units is there may be some high frequency AC ripple on the line that causes more "in/out" current that won't show up on many ammeters. Anything like that will make motors run hot and often produce low power. MSW inverters are a prime example of it.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Our Magnum MS2000 uses 1.4 amps at idle, but is idle current an indication of which does better at near maximum load?

Our Outback 2800 plus the clock on the microwave use 2.3 amps.

Which flavor is your Magnum?

[booster]

It is a very heavy transformer model at like 42#, so I assume low frequency.


It starts and runs our Dometic 12K AC without issue or a hard start capacitor.