Winnebago Travato with Volta Lithium Battery System

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

The Nations second engine alternator does NOT add a significant amount of noise to a Sprinter engine.

Without getting getting into the semantics of what "significant" is, the Nations second engine alternator does add audible noise to a Chevy engine.

Perhaps, the reason that the Nations second engine alternator does NOT add a significant amount of noise to a Sprinter engine is because compared to a gas engine, the Sprinter engine is pretty noisy to begin with.

Either way, IMO, running any engine at 1600 rpm day or night at a dedicated campsite is guaranteed to piss off your neighbors.

[davedutah]

Originally Posted by avanti

Don't forget, this is the company that gives away all its patents:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-p...no&redirect=no

Just to be clear, Tesla did not give away its patents. This is more like an offer to cross-license (I won't sue you if you don't sue me). Basically, it was a publicity stunt--and it worked well for that.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by davedutah

Just to be clear, Tesla did not give away its patents. This is more like an offer to cross-license (I won't sue you if you don't sue me). Basically, it was a publicity stunt--and it worked well for that.

Nonsense. You are making a distinction without a difference. True, they aren't literally "giving away" the patents in the sense that somebody else would come to own them instead of Tesla. That would be absurd, and not even desirable. It is also true that people were initially worried about the "good faith" proviso in Musk's statement, but that term was subsequently carefully defined. You can find it here:

https://www.tesla.com/about/legal

To summarize, they impose only three restrictions:
1) That (as you say) you can't sue them for infringing your patents;
2) You can't participate in a challenge to the validity of Tesla's patents; and
3) You can't market "knock off" products, i.e., blatant copies of Tesla products.

Within these guidelines (which seem to me to be more than reasonable), anyone can freely use Tesla's patents. This differs from a "cross license" in that it is free to anyone--no license agreement required--and Tesla has given up their right to "play favorites" for business reasons.

Hardly a "publicity stunt". You may choose to believe that anything short of putting the technology in the public domain is somehow "cheating", but that would be naive.

[davedutah]

Wow. Didn't mean to make you mad. Just wanted to clear up a common misconception about what Tesla did in an area where I have expertise. FWIW, items 1 and 2 are key elements of cross-licensing, which is why I said what I did. I don't think good publicity is cheating. I think it is wise business practice. Elon is good at it.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by davedutah

Wow. Didn't mean to make you mad. Just wanted to clear up a common misconception about what Tesla did in an area where I have expertise. FWIW, items 1 and 2 are key elements of cross-licensing, which is why I said what I did. I don't think good publicity is cheating. I think it is wise business practice. Elon is good at it.

Not mad.

But, as I see it, the misconception is that Elon didn't really give anything away (a statement that is all over the Internet). This is far from the truth. There is a huge difference between cross-licence agreements with your friends, and an open-source offer available to all comers.

If you are familiar with this area, you will understand that the GNU license is still valuable, even though there are many strings attached to it, as compared with other such licenses. (I mean this only as an analogy--this is obviously a different field with different issues).

[davedutah]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Either way, IMO, running any engine at 1600 rpm day or night at a dedicated campsite is guaranteed to piss off your neighbors.

Agreed. But I do wonder what the noise difference is. Even if boondocking, I don't think I'd like running the generator. The Travato's Onan 2800 seems super loud, inside and out, and on the 59K I looked at, it vibrated the van, more than the engine did.

I've seen some youtube videos gauging the noise of the generator, and it barely meets national park standards (60db @ 50ft) WITHOUT any load on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e41kvkEAcGs

The resonator makes the sound more pleasant but doesn't reduce the decibels very much.

I'm hoping that the engine idle, even at 1600 rpm, is going to be way more pleasant sounding than the genset.

When someone gets a KL or GL and can run some noise-level tests on the Volta system charging, like FitRV did with the Onan in the video, I'll be anxious to see the results.

[Davydd]

There is no sound level acceptable in a campground in the middle of the night be it an Onan to an engine starting up.

[davedutah]

Originally Posted by Davydd

There is no sound level acceptable in a campground in the middle of the night be it an Onan to an engine starting up.

Agreed. But that's not why I'm asking.

Even out in the boondocks the Onan seems like it would be too loud for me. (Based on the above video, and trying it out at the local dealer.)

Even in a campground during generator hours, it could be too loud during generator hours under load. (Since it is at maximum Natl Park sound level when not under load.)

If the engine at 1600 rpm is quieter, that would make me feel a lot better--even in the daytime.

[booster]

Originally Posted by davedutah

Agreed. But I do wonder what the noise difference is. Even if boondocking, I don't think I'd like running the generator. The Travato's Onan 2800 seems super loud, inside and out, and on the 59K I looked at, it vibrated the van, more than the engine did.

I've seen some youtube videos gauging the noise of the generator, and it barely meets national park standards (60db @ 50ft) WITHOUT any load on it.

The resonator makes the sound more pleasant but doesn't reduce the decibels very much.

I'm hoping that the engine idle, even at 1600 rpm, is going to be way more pleasant sounding than the genset.

When someone gets a KL or GL and can run some noise-level tests on the Volta system charging, like FitRV did with the Onan in the video, I'll be anxious to see the results.

At 1600rpm, and using substantial hp to generate power, you are also going to generate a lot of heat. This means that the cooling fan(s) will be likely running full time (I think Promaster has electric fans as it is FWD). Electric fans at full speed can be anything from a roar to scream, depending on the vehicle and the fan design, do you would need to make sure the fans were full on for any noise testing. You would need to do the same for a rear drive with clutch fan, as the also get much louder when engaged.

Just starting the van and running it up to 1600 will not give you accurate sound levels.

[davedutah]

Originally Posted by booster

Just starting the van and running it up to 1600 will not give you accurate sound levels.

Good point. Getting sound readings while charging, and maybe running the A/C would be interesting.

[wincrasher]

Well, we'll know soon enough. My Travato GL is about 4 weeks out and I can run tests with a dB meter.

But I'm confident it will be 1/2 the sound level of an high-idling diesel, and about 1/3 the noise level of an Onan 2800.

The argument about starting an engine in the middle of the night or early morning is just a red herring. You can control that easily. There is enough battery capacity that starting up in the night is not necessary. That's the benefit of the large battery pack - gives you flexibility on when and where you will recharge. The whole argument about idling in a crowded campground is silly anyways - nearly all of them would have a shore power hookup!

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well, we'll know soon enough. My Travato GL is about 4 weeks out and I can run tests with a dB meter.

But I'm confident it will be 1/2 the sound level of an high-idling diesel, and about 1/3 the noise level of an Onan 2800.

The argument about starting an engine in the middle of the night or early morning is just a red herring. You can control that easily. There is enough battery capacity that starting up in the night is not necessary. That's the benefit of the large battery pack - gives you flexibility on when and where you will recharge. The whole argument about idling in a crowded campground is silly anyways - nearly all of them would have a shore power hookup!

It's not a red herring. Most of the talk is getting through the night running air conditioning is for high AH lithium battery packs. That's why auto starting and idling is incorporated. Very few campgrounds in national forest and national parks have shore power.

[wincrasher]

Funny how the argument keeps changing.

First it was wanting to run the AC all day for the dog and not trusting the autostart to work so the pooch doesn't end up cooking. Problem solved.

Now it's somehow wanting to run the AC all night, yet not recharge for fear of disturbing someone.

For Pete's sake. Just stick with your old lead-acid systems and don't have any capability to run AC on battery at all! I mean, what do you rabbit hole dwellers really want? Nothing seems to satisfy.

If you need more run time, spec a bigger battery! If you don't want to make noise, then don't! Don't run your generator or don't idle your engine. The choice is yours. Some of you act like you are being forced to disturb other people. You aren't - you can turn autostart off and wait until mid-morning to run it, or take your van sightseeing and recharge then.

I mean, really, what do you want? You expect some kind of completely silent recharging system? How about a 40kw battery? Oh yeah, you want all this on a $60k van too I suppose.

[jon]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Funny how the argument keeps changing.

First it was wanting to run the AC all day for the dog and not trusting the autostart to work so the pooch doesn't end up cooking. Problem solved.

Now it's somehow wanting to run the AC all night, yet not recharge for fear of disturbing someone.

For Pete's sake. Just stick with your old lead-acid systems and don't have any capability to run AC on battery at all! I mean, what do you rabbit hole dwellers really want? Nothing seems to satisfy.

If you need more run time, spec a bigger battery! If you don't want to make noise, then don't! Don't run your generator or don't idle your engine. The choice is yours. Some of you act like you are being forced to disturb other people. You aren't - you can turn autostart off and wait until mid-morning to run it, or take your van sightseeing and recharge then.

I mean, really, what do you want? You expect some kind of completely silent recharging system? How about a 40kw battery? Oh yeah, you want all this on a $60k van too I suppose.

BOY! Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

[BBQ]

.

Running AC on battery is easy -- all you need is money

$$$$

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well, we'll know soon enough. My Travato GL is about 4 weeks out and I can run tests with a dB meter.

But I'm confident it will be 1/2 the sound level of an high-idling diesel, and about 1/3 the noise level of an Onan 2800.

A db meter will certainly provide an objective measurement of noise levels, but it's incapable of quantifying the gut level perception of and reaction to a noise source. Two sounds may have equivalent db noise levels but a difference in the frequency and timbre of the sounds can produce a spectrum of listener reactions ranging from pleasant to unendurable. IMO, The bottom line is that if it's trashing the tranquility of your immediate neighbors, the db level is irrelevant.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

A db meter will certainly provide an objective measurement of noise levels, but it's incapable of quantifying the gut level perception of and reaction to a noise source. Two sounds may have equivalent db noise levels but a difference in the frequency and timbre of the sounds can produce a spectrum of listener reactions ranging from pleasant to unendurable. IMO, The bottom line is that if it's trashing the tranquility of your immediate neighbors, the db level is irrelevant.

Actually, no. dB will give you an idea of how far the sound will carry. The rest is an indicator of the annoyance of the sound. You could read my thoughts on the subject by reading the article I wrote on a generator resonator.

[davedutah]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

A db meter will certainly provide an objective measurement of noise levels, but ... The bottom line is that if it's trashing the tranquility of your immediate neighbors, the db level is irrelevant.

I agree somewhat. The resonator on the Onan 2800 sure seems to make the sound more tolerable (to me, based on the youtube videos, for what they are worth), even though it doesn't reduce the db much, or at all.

But if it is a matter of getting kicked out of a park, based on the decibel level, the decibels could still be relevant.

That's what made me nervous from watching FitRV's decibel test on their Travato's Onan 2800. It barely passed the Natl Park noise requirements when under no load. If it is noisier under load, it wouldn't be legal in Natl Parks--even during generator hours.

If WinCrasher's Travato GL is less than 60db @50ft, with the engine at 1600 rpm, charging batteries, and running the A/C, then that's a huge win to me, even if it is still annoyingly loud.

If it's not annoyingly loud (to me), and I can use it to run the A/C at night when I'm away from others, out in the boonies, that is also a huge win to me.

[Gosman]

Originally Posted by JakeyLee

I agree wholeheartedly. I have the same issues with the Travatos. I wonder if they eliminated the Onan, if they could somehow increase the fresh water tank capacity? 21 gallons is a little on the small side.

What is wrong with the Onan?

[Oliver2017]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Running AC on battery is easy -- all you need is money

$$$$

Ball park estimate...about how much "money" does it cost to just be able to have enough lithium power to run an air conditioner for a couple hours and recharge the batteries the cheapest possible way?

What percentage of the cost for a lithium power system is for recharging? If I wanted to drastically cut the cost for a system...is recharging the angle to go?