Which Lithium Power System

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You store a Sprinter in Minnesota unpowered over the winter I guarantee you the AGM chassis battery will not start your engine come spring. So what’s the point?

Hmmm. Sounds like something that one of those clueless, no-experinece Google jockeys I keep hearing about might say.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You store a Sprinter in Minnesota unpowered over the winter I guarantee you the AGM chassis battery will not start your engine come spring. So what’s the point?

I would agree that it can be iffy with wet cells, but disconnected they can still do it quite often, I know that from personal experience.


Disconnected, so no drain, AGM batteries will nearly always start you in the spring. 3% a month loss for 5 months in an AGM in good shape, is not much. Lots of winter stored cars with Optimas in them just get disconnected in cold storage and start in the spring without issue. We also have done that, when our hotrod was stored offsite in unheated space.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Disconnected, so no drain, AGM batteries will nearly always start you in the spring. 3% a month loss for 5 months in an AGM in good shape, is not much. Lots of winter stored cars with Optimas in them just get disconnected in cold storage and start in the spring without issue. We also have done that, when our hotrod was stored offsite in unheated space.

Yes. Sprinter starter batteries are AGM. It isn't even close to being an issue.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Advanced RV still offers the Elite Power Solutions LiFePo4 batteries. They are readying the Lithiumwerks Valence LiFeMgPo4 batteries with ongoing design and testing and they have the Volta batteries in customer hands. Their term at Advanced Fest was good, better and best in terms of performance and price of your choice of system. They all are integrated with Silverleaf.

Thanks for the update on Advanced RV battery options. I’m confused however, this thread seems to be focused on aftermarket/retrofit/DIY build options. How does your info relate to this discussion?

[Davydd]

OK, I’ll butt out of this discussion.

[BBQ]

.

LOL ARV uses aftermarket components.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

OK, I’ll butt out of this discussion.

My interest was not to have you “butt out”, it was simply to try to direct the discussion back to the original topic before it got too far off topic. Feel free to point out my off topic comments to help me keep things on topic, I am as guilty as anyone when it comes to extraneous responses...

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

LOL ARV uses aftermarket components.

In the context of this discussion, Advanced RV is one of the Volta partner vendors that installs the Volta retrofit in anyone’s vehicle just like they are doing with the Houghton quiet air conditioner.

[wincrasher]

Currently, if you are in a market for a new van, it's more than just which system - it's also which van you want.

If you want a Sprinter, your choices are ARV, Coachmen, PW & RT
If you want a Promaster, your choices are Winnebago, PW, Hymer, RT.
If you want a Transit - you are out of luck.

Of course if you want to DIY this, then your choices are wide open.

I'm so impressed with the Volta system that I ordered a new Travato with it. I'm sure in another year, they will include it on their Era models. But I still don't want a van as big as a Sprinter XL. So far I haven't seen a short Sprinter that I like enough to cut a check.

You will not get as big a battery pack on the other systems (other than ARV's multitude of offerings)as you will on a Volta system. Then there is the 48v alternator as mentioned above. If I was to put one system in last place, that would be the Pleasureway. It's not much different than just putting a couple drop-in lithium batteries in any old van. The RT/Hymer system I won't expound upon other than it's a kludge of a home grown design with lots of quirks, Voltstart doesn't really work, and it's full of questionable cheap Chinese parts.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Thanks for the update on Advanced RV battery options. I’m confused however, this thread seems to be focused on aftermarket/retrofit/DIY build options. How does your info relate to this discussion?

Originally Posted by Davydd

OK, I’ll butt out of this discussion.

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

LOL ARV uses aftermarket components.

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

In the context of this discussion, Advanced RV is one of the Volta partner vendors that installs the Volta retrofit in anyone’s vehicle just like they are doing with the Houghton quiet air conditioner.

You missed the whole point of the discussion.

Whatever ARV uses, is available to the aftermarket.

Unlike the RT ecotrek system, the systems used by ARV are not propietary. Any DIY can order it in one form or another. Therefore Davydd's experience adds value to the discussion. Good bad or ugly, we can all learn from it.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BBQ

You missed the whole point of the discussion.

Whatever ARV uses, is available to the aftermarket.

Unlike the RT ecotrek system, the systems used by ARV are not propietary. Any DIY can order it in one form or another. Therefore Davydd's experience adds value to the discussion. Good bad or ugly, we can all learn from it.

Yes, I see your point now.

The Elite and Valence batteries are options for battery banks and probably good choices since they are being used by Advanced RV. You are still faced with being the systems integrator for the rest of the components.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

OK, I’ll butt out of this discussion.

Sorry for my previous comment, I missed the connection between the new Advanced RV battery option and this discussion.

[Reed]

Have read that it is safe to charge LFP at 0.01C at very low temperatures.

Best option is to place LFP battery suite in cabin of large RVs

Such space is not available in Roadtrek. Our son has been in solar design and fabrication for 25 years. He placed the 4.5 kW-hr LFP battery suite under the bed (we have pretty much set it up permanently) and set in a blower that replaces the battery compartment air once a minute. It turns on at about 8 C and we keep the cabin at about 10 C with an Olympic Wave 3. It startled us when it first came on at 2 am with outside temp of -10 C.
Reed and Elaine

[tex4judy]

The 48 Volt system sounds like a real good idea. On ships and boats we had systems running at 24, 36, and 48 VDC. I will say that we've had a very good experience - the product and the support - with Lithionics.

[VanFan]

To answer the OP's question, my new build has a 600ah Elite LiFePO battery and a Victron BMV 702 monitor. The offline power comes from replacing the OEM alternator with an upgraded high output unit, paired with a second high output alternator. Combined the two alternators deliver just about 560 amps at idle speed (about 6700 watts, for comparison to a generator) through a Balmar regulator designed for dual alternator applications. The Elite battery's management system sends its data to my television screen, and the Victron monitor's readouts and settings can be observed and controlled via Bluetooth on my android phone and tablet. It's not as elegant as a Silverleaf control system by any stretch, but it ain't bad. Also, based on the state of charge, the Victron also automatically starts and stops the engine to keep the battery charged. So that's what I'm running and all in all I'm pretty happy.

BUT....

Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of this forum when I started the build. If I had been I might have found out about the Volta system in time to save myself a lot of trouble. Although I suspect my system costs less, it took a LOT of research and tweaking to get all these components to play nice with each other.

Now if I may, I have a couple questions for you Volta owners: does that system use a 48v to 120v inverter or does it convert down to 12v prior to running the current through a standard 12v inverter? And at what point in the system does that system step the voltage down for 12 volts devices? Does it use a 48 DC to 12 DC converter immediately after the regulator?

[booster]

How does your dual system handle turning off the charging when the batteries get full? The big question has been if the output of the alternators is turned off, you could get a big spike, even with the starting battery in the circuit, if you are moving 300 amps+ at the switching. With the dual alternators in parallel, you can't really turn off the field first as it will shut of the van alternator power also. I think the only really good way would be to shut off the fields on both alternators, then disconnect the coach, then turn the fields back on for normal driving.


We have a similar parallel at 530 amps of alternator rating (280+250), which will net us about 280 to some over 300 amps average while driving without getting too hot. At idle we can do about 200 amps without too much alternator temp.


What alternators do you have that can do 560 amps at idle continuously, and stay cool while doing it?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by A. A. Dickson

To answer the OP's question, my new build has a 600ah Elite LiFePO battery and a Victron BMV 702 monitor. The offline power comes from replacing the OEM alternator with an upgraded high output unit, paired with a second high output alternator. Combined the two alternators deliver just about 560 amps at idle speed (about 6700 watts, for comparison to a generator) through a Balmar regulator designed for dual alternator applications. The Elite battery's management system sends its data to my television screen, and the Victron monitor's readouts and settings can be observed and controlled via Bluetooth on my android phone and tablet. It's not as elegant as a Silverleaf control system by any stretch, but it ain't bad. Also, based on the state of charge, the Victron also automatically starts and stops the engine to keep the battery charged. So that's what I'm running and all in all I'm pretty happy.

BUT....

Unfortunately, I wasn't a member of this forum when I started the build. If I had been I might have found out about the Volta system in time to save myself a lot of trouble. Although I suspect my system costs less, it took a LOT of research and tweaking to get all these components to play nice with each other.

Now if I may, I have a couple questions for you Volta owners: does that system use a 48v to 120v inverter or does it convert down to 12v prior to running the current through a standard 12v inverter? And at what point in the system does that system step the voltage down for 12 volts devices? Does it use a 48 DC to 12 DC converter immediately after the regulator?

If you go to the Volta website you can find descriptions and specs for all of the system components. In the system used in the Travato you have a 48v inverter/shore charger to get 120v AC and charge the batteries on shore power. There is a 48v to 12v DC to DC converter connected to the 48v battery bank to power the 12v loads. And the 48v battery bank and 48v auxiliary alternator.

https://voltapowersystems.com

[Bud]

Is there something better than the Volta system?

Is there something better than the Volta system in some conceptional way?

Bud

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Bud

Is there something better than the Volta system?

Is there something better than the Volta system in some conceptional way?

Bud

In my assessment there is nothing I have seen that is currently available that is better than the Volta system for use in an RV. I think with the 48v setup the key differentiator is the 48v aux alternator providing the major benefit of very fast recharging. The other advantages of going to 48v such as the weight and space savings from smaller wire sizes at 48v wouldn’t seem to be that significant in a small RV where all of the components are in close proximity. If the battery bank was some distance from the inverter/charger and the DC-DC converter then the wire size reduction could be a benefit. It seems that battery heating pads are available though they are not used in the Travato implementation which uses cabin heat directed to the batteries for keeping them at operating temperature when needed. For an after market install the battery heating pads would probably be the way to go if the batteries are not located in the heated portion of the RV.

And conceptually, it has all the design features I would be expect with the current lithium battery technology.

[Buford Wilson]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You store a Sprinter in Minnesota unpowered over the winter I guarantee you the AGM chassis battery will not start your engine come spring. So what’s the point?

It (Promaster) will start if you have solar and Xantrex Echo Charge. I did it for the past two years in Calgary.