Strange battery charging issues on 00 Roadtrek 200

[bkhundley]

As the title says, I am having some strange issues charging my house battery that I'm hoping to get a help with. The basic problem is that the battery charging panel is showing periodically that the house battery is not getting charged when the engine is running.

I have tried to isolate this as much as possible, which has proven difficult because the issue is not completely consistent. Sometimes when I start the vehicle the battery shows charging, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it shows charging even _after_ I turn off the vehicle, but this usually only lasts a few minutes.

The only fairly consistent thing I have found is that if the battery indicator shows charging when the vehicle is running, if I turn the fridge on to DC power, immediately the charging indicator goes off and I hear a loud "click" from the magnatek converter. After about 15-20 seconds, there will be a 2nd loud "click" from the magnatek at which point the charging indicator sometimes comes back on, sometimes not, but never for more than just a few seconds, at which point there is another loud "click" from the converter, the charging light goes back off and the cycle repeats itself indefinitely.

So obviously this seems like a problem with my converter, and I have no issue replacing it as this one is now 16 years old, but I'd like to better understand what the heck is happening in case replacing the converter doesn't fix the issue. (and if anyone has ideas that it could be something besides the converter)

Any help much appreciated. Thanks!

[markopolo]

Vehicle running and Magnatek converter operation are unrelated.

The "click" could be a self resetting breaker. I'd check, clean, tighten, etc. all DC connections first. A high resistance connection could result in high amperage and therefore trip a DC breaker. The DC breaker might just be failing also. - Just some ideas to get the troubleshooting started.

[BBQ]

.

What kind of battery?

How many?

How old are the batteries?

How many amp ?

[bkhundley]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

What kind of battery?

How many?

How old are the batteries?

The house battery is a 3 month old lifeline (the RT 200 has just 1). I don't see these charging issues on shore power, just when the vehicle is running. Thanks.

[bkhundley]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Vehicle running and Magnatek converter operation are unrelated.

The "click" could be a self resetting breaker. I'd check, clean, tighten, etc. all DC connections first. A high resistance connection could result in high amperage and therefore trip a DC breaker. The DC breaker might just be failing also. - Just some ideas to get the troubleshooting started.

When you say "all DC connections", do you mean the connections at the battery itself or are there more? If the DC breaker is failing, would that indicate a need to replace the entire converter or just the breaker? thanks

[booster]

I agree with Marko.

If you have a Roadtrek with a isolator like yours would be, you will likely have two 50 amp breakers in the cable from the isolator under the hood to the area of the battery. They will be little metal cans with spade connectors on them and probably 6ga wire.

You change to a Lifeline AGM is likely the cause, as it will accept much more current than your previous wet cell (a guess that is what you had).

I would replace the breakers as they are old, but it probable it will still happen if the battery is fairly low when you run the engine. To stop it, you would have to increase the wire size and breaker size from the isolator to the battery. You could turn on the headlights to load the alternator down and you might get the breakers to stop tripping, but would by severely taxing the alternator.

When you are on shore power, those breakers aren't in the circuit so wouldn't trip, plus the shore charger is less than 50 amps, so they wouldn't anyway.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by bkhundley

.................. I don't see these charging issues on shore power.................... Thanks.

So no problem with the Magnatek. It runs only on AC power. I do agree that it should be replaced as it won't adequately care for the Lifeline though.

Lifeline batteries have low internal resistance and therefor can accept high charge rates from the alternator. The wiring and breaker from the isolator to the Lifeline is likely inadequate if you find the connections are good (low resistance).

You might as well replace the isolator in addition to the converter for newer tech (see http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...ment-5808.html ). Isolator = voltage drop.

----------

I just saw your new post - when checking for resistance issues focus on the DC wire from the isolator to the Lifeline. Now that I know it is a Lifeline battery then my guess is that the wire and/or breaker is undersized. If the wire is 6 gauge the you could up the breaker to 50A. My '04 had 6 gauge wire & 30 amp breaker & RT sent me a 50 amp replacement to match the electrical schematic drawings. (rig was nearly new)

Now I see Booster also posted - good info.

A Progressive Dynamics charger would be a good low cost upgrade of the Magnatek. There are other superior chargers but cost goes up with features.

[bkhundley]

Marco, Booster, thanks very much for your detailed responses. Let me see if I can summarize your advice correctly:

1) Replacing my previous battery with a lifeline may be the source of the issue. Q: was it a bad decision to choose the lifeline? I had read many recommendations that lifeline was a good choice

2) Replacing my old converter with a new one from progressive dynamics is a good idea

3) Replacing my isolator is a good idea

4) I may need to replace the circuit breakers and the wiring from the isolator to the battery. Q: what gauge wire would you recommend?

One thing I am still not getting is why turning the fridge on DC would affect the charge/no charge on the battery if the issue is related to the wiring from the isolator to the battery unless that is just an unrelated issue. Thanks!

[booster]

Originally Posted by bkhundley

Marco, Booster, thanks very much for your detailed responses. Let me see if I can summarize your advice correctly:

1) Replacing my previous battery with a lifeline may be the source of the issue. Q: was it a bad decision to choose the lifeline? I had read many recommendations that lifeline was a good choice

2) Replacing my old converter with a new one from progressive dynamics is a good idea

3) Replacing my isolator is a good idea

4) I may need to replace the circuit breakers and the wiring from the isolator to the battery. Q: what gauge wire would you recommend?

One thing I am still not getting is why turning the fridge on DC would affect the charge/no charge on the battery if the issue is related to the wiring from the isolator to the battery unless that is just an unrelated issue. Thanks!

1) The Lifeline is a great upgrade, but the other systems also need and upgrade after 16 years to go with it. I would not go back to a wet cell.

2) Yes replace with a Progressive Dynamics, using a model that has a remote pendant so you can control the stages manually if you want.

3) Replacing the isolator with a good separator, (charge relay, combiner), two way charging unit would be a good idea and should be done the same time as number 4.

4) The single Lifeline will be able to take a lot of amps, but you should be OK with 80amps from a stock alternator. That would indicate 80 amp breakers and 4ga cable.

I would add a number 5) that would be to install a shunt based battery monitor so you know exactly now well everything is working, and how full the battery is.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

I would add a number 5) that would be to install a shunt based battery monitor so you know exactly now well everything is working, and how full the battery is.

Actually, I would move that one to #1. Getting a proper battery monitor is like having blinders removed from your eyes. It will immediately make the behavior of your system obvious.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Actually, I would move that one to #1. Getting a proper battery monitor is like having blinders removed from your eyes. It will immediately make the behavior of your system obvious.

I would agree, but in reality I think that they probably all should be #1 and done at the same time, to get a system that will play nice.

[markopolo]

I agree with Avanti & Booster but will post the following because I had already typed it.

Lifeline is a good battery - your rig was never built with the Lifeline's capability, capacity & care in mind.

Replace isolator with latching type device to get full voltage back to house battery. A fairly common comment on forums is the 0.5V voltage drop caused by isolators.

A 45A PD converter/charger on 6 gauge wire matches the charge requirements of a single Lifeline battery close enough I think. Booster might comment on this as it would be a bit undersized.

You could get by with 6 gauge wire if it is already in place. Upsize the breaker to 50A. That should minimize or eliminate the breaker tripping.

If planning to add more batteries then higher gauge wire needed.

The fridge is downstream of the Lifeline. It adds to the load (increases the current) passing through that wire and breaker.

Check the wire connections first & make sure nothing is loose. Then check the breaker rating & then check the wire gauge. The cheapest fix is sounding like two new breakers assuming what is in place is 30A on 6 gauge wire.

Everything else is optional. You could manually fully charge the Lifeline once per month if you have a decent charger to make sure it occaisionally gets fully charged.

(edited to say two breakers - one would likely be under the hood and the second near where the wire comes into the coach.)

[bkhundley]

Originally Posted by booster

1) The Lifeline is a great upgrade, but the other systems also need and upgrade after 16 years to go with it. I would not go back to a wet cell.

2) Yes replace with a Progressive Dynamics, using a model that has a remote pendant so you can control the stages manually if you want.

3) Replacing the isolator with a good separator, (charge relay, combiner), two way charging unit would be a good idea and should be done the same time as number 4.

4) The single Lifeline will be able to take a lot of amps, but you should be OK with 80amps from a stock alternator. That would indicate 80 amp breakers and 4ga cable.

I would add a number 5) that would be to install a shunt based battery monitor so you know exactly now well everything is working, and how full the battery is.

Do you have specific recommendations for a good separator and a shunt battery monitor? Thanks!

[booster]

Originally Posted by bkhundley

Do you have specific recommendations for a good separator and a shunt battery monitor? Thanks!

Most folks have the Trimetric monitor, which works well and if you ever go solar you could add on a solar controller that would also run off the monitor.

Blue Sea makes very nice separators, but expensive. You can even get them with an override on and off switch, so you can shut off the engine charging if the battery is already full, which is a nice feature. I think Marko recently mentioned another brand that was reasonably priced and used very low power.

[bkhundley]

Thanks for all of the advice, I really appreciate it. Looks like I have some work ahead of me.

[KurtFranz]

Reviving an old thread here as I am experiencing the exact same issue as the OP. House battery not charging while driving. My issues began when I started my trip to Cleveland and set the fridge on DC while driving. When I stopped to fuel up I noticed that the fridge was clicking and the house battery was completely dead.

That is where I am now - and looking into it. Any specifics anyone has regarding parts/part numbers etc for the components that I will be needing to fix this would be appreciated - specifically the inline circuit breakers between the isolater and the house battery - which is an old school wet cell from walmart which is less than a year old and was installed by the PO.

In essence any additional advice that could help me out as I know the gist of the problem.

Thx

[mkguitar]

I don't have a 2002 R/T 190V


I have a Pleasure Way but the lay out should be generally the similar


clicking could be the igniter trying to start gas- set manually to DC ( not gas, not "auto") if going to gas station






step 1 is to charge the battery fully ( otherwise other test results can be skewed) check the electrolyte is full ( distilled water...I use condensate from my house AC drain- it's free) also check the battery cables have clean and tight connections at both ends.
the cables should not feel "soft" under the insulation- in that case the cables could be corroded
a "charged" battery should be 12.7 volts or better when it's just sitting there with no load- disconnect negative cable.

and it should be about the same with cable connected and everything switched off- otherwise you may have a parasite.


switch ON the battery separator ( red key-)


check for an 80 amp breaker on the supply line TO the battery ( pleasure ways have these along with all the other 12 volt breakers for the "house". on mine the rest is on the "bump out" in the center


The next step is to check charging- you likely have a battery separator- mine is a blue box on the fire wall.

The power from the alternator goes into this box and thru diodes to the "A" battery under the hood.


There is also a terminal for the "B" battery ( house) which also has diodes


The B only becomes "active" or connected when the motor is running via an internal switch- there is a smaller wire which provides power to that switch.


The diodes act as 1 way "gates" the power can only flow TO the battery from this separator, it cannot flow back ( if a diodes was bad the battery could be drained while sitting)
Diodes also waste power- the nominal 14.7 volts from the alternator become more like 13.5 to the batteries




so with the motor running, you should see power ( a trouble light and a meter) ) at ALL 4 terminals on the battery separator which would tell you:


the alternator is making power ( 14.7 VDC)


the A side ( van battery) is getting power ( 13.5 ish)



the B side ( house battery) is getting power ( 13.5 ish)



the smaller terminal the trigger wire for the switch is providing power (13 something)


(with motor off you should see more like 0, 12.7, 12.7 and 0 on these )


( if your separator is bad- there are newer units with use FET rather than diodes and do not have the voltage drop...I still have the old diodes but if I were shopping the victron argo FET might be a good choice )




if all that checks out.


check house battery with voltmeter, motor off should see 12.8 ish volts
. start motor and you should see 13.5 ish


if you have those results- yay, that indicates that the power from the alternator is making it to the battery when the van is running


otherwise post what results you see


my old van runs with a costco interstate Group 27 DC battery, it suits the electrical system I have. with led conversion we are good for days off grid. the first one lasted almost 6 years- I replaced it while on a trip last year with the same



Mike

[KurtFranz]

Thanks for the detailed information Mike. Are these circuit breakers a commodity item - any specific model number or anything? Do I just walk into the parts store and tell them I need a 50 amp circuit breaker to use on my RV house battery - so to speak? On the other hand I guess I could just take the bad one with me and show the parts guy.

Whatever, at the end of the day I am convinced that the fridge caused the issue because the house battery was charging while driving until I used the fridge on DC while driving. Up until that day the green charging indicator would always be on with the engine running.

[mkguitar]

if you think it is circuit breaker, you should locate and reset the breaker first


( I now see a typo in my post above where "reset" is missing an E ....


"check for an 80 amp breaker on the supply line TO the battery ( pleasure ways have these along with all the other 12 volt breakers for the "house". on mine the resEt is on the "bump out" in the center" )


IF the fridge were an issue it has it's own circuit breakers and/ or fuses and would trip them long before an 80 amp breaker ( 80 is what my PW uses)


mike

[booster]

I think the Roadtrek breakers will be the auto reset types so once dead, only replacing will tell you anything.