Solar panel controller

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

I will ask this question in deference to Booster ( the Lifeline contact/friend I called suggested the charged voltage should be kept at 13.2 but he isnt a tech although all the Lifeline literature suggests 13.2)

Booster suggested, knowing my Lifeline AGM setup, that I should change the CHARGED VOLTAGE SETTING on the Battery Meter to 13.6, versus the 13.2.

And that in his estimation, even the 13.6 is too low.
What are your opinions?

Greatly Edited: Per the following two posts, I think that you and I misunderstood Booster, he doesn't want that change made on either the "charged voltage setting" or "float" setting
With AGM, you absolutely DON'T want to reach 13.6V with an AGM battery in Summer. You don't even want to reach 13.4V.

<< Big SNIP >>

Although you have set 13.2V as the "fully charged, STOP EVERYTHING (INCLUDING 'FLOAT') value in one place (a good value), I think that something, somewhere, is actually imposing 12.9V as a "STOP EVERYTHING" value.

The cellphone App, meanwhile, thinks that a Solar Controller must (at minimum) be in "Float Stage" when the sun is shining, and the Battery has not yet reached 13.2V or perhaps even full Float Voltage. I would ignore the App. I feel that it is an example of the old computer programmer joke: "That's not a bug, that's a Feature! "

If it is showing the batteries that high (nearly 12.9V == 100% full on AGM), you should just ignore the cellphone App screaming. It's only a "Feature!"

I strongly agree with advice in the next two posts, by booster. Booster was probably talking about your 'Absorb' charging value. Please verify.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rickst29

With AGM, you absolutely DON'T want to reach 13.6V with an AGM battery in Summer. The maximum "Float" Voltage on a "full" battery in standard temperatures is about 2.2.5V per cell (13.5V, or even a bit less) - but that is before correcting for hot summer temperatures. I think that Booster makes a slightly "bad" recommendation in this case (but I'm arguing about a one or two tenths of a Volt, his recommendation isn't 'totally horrid').

Although you have set 13.2V as the "fully charged, STOP EVERYTHING (INCLUDING 'FLOAT') value in one place, I think that something, somewhere, is actually imposing 12.9V as a "STOP EVERYTHING" value.

The cellphone App, meanwhile, thinks that a Solar Controller must (at minimum) be in "Float Stage" when the sun is shining, and the Battery has not yet reached 13.2V or perhaps even full Float Voltage. I would ignore the App. I feel that it is an example of the old computer programmer joke: "That's not a bug, that's a Feature! "

If it is showing the batteries that high (nearly 12.9V == 100% full on AGM), you should just ignore the cellphone App screaming. It's only a "Feature!"

I think you are totally missing the what the Victron is looking at for voltage. When you say 100% full for an AGM, that is rested voltage without a charger on it. The setting we are talking about is the one of the two triggers, while on charge, that need to be met to indicate the battery is full. The other trigger is current to the battery. Both have to be met, while on charge, to indicate a totally full battery and take the battery to float. For Lifeline, the two triggers to be met, while on charge, are being at or above 14.3v and at or below .5%C amps to the battery. So on a 200ah bank of lifelines those two triggers would be 14.3v and 1.0 amps.


If you never charge at over 13.2v, it will take days or weeks to get near full and you will still be short charging and not converting all the sulfate. Battery life will be severely reduced.



13.2v is a good float voltage for Lifeline, and what they recommend for long term storage, even. Much better than letting the batteries sit uncharged for that long.


My recommendations follow exactly what the battery manufacturer recommends to get full charging and long battery life. Of course voltages need to be adjusted for battery temp swings to be spot on, but any good charger should be able to do that automatically.

[booster]

Here is what Lifeline says about charging batteries.





That is out their technical manual which you can see and print from here:


http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-cont...cal-Manual.pdf

[booster]

Without going back into all the discussion previously, I think the Dr was referring to the Victron setting for "charged voltage" in the battery monitor, which is not the absorption or float voltage necessarily. It is only the threshold selected to the meter to be able to say the battery is fully charged when also meeting the amps the battery setting.


This has nothing to do with the actual charging of the battery in a monitor, only the in the monitor determining if the battery really got full, or not. Normally, I would set the charged voltage setting .1 or .2v below the absorption setpoint so that it sure to reach it in absorption as the voltage can vary a bit with temp compensation and such. Hopefully, the Victron would compensate closely the same as the charger, so the difference is small enough to get by with only a couple of tenths of a volt descrepency.


The whole idea behind this setting, which is what allows the monitor to judge the battery being full by using the, in this case Lifeline, specification for charging their batteries to full. It has be set far enough above the float voltage to prevent the monitor from showing a fully charged battery in float where the current will also drop a bunch a give a false "full battery" reading. Getting that setting as close as possible to absorption voltage will also help keep the solar from generating a false "full battery" reading on the monitor. Solar is famous for going to full absorption voltage and then a cloud comes over and limits output enough to drop voltage a ways, maybe down from the 14.3v to 13.8v, and the current also drops at the same time because the batteries is getting nearer fully charged. It easily then could reach the two setpoints on the monitor if they were set to 13.6v and the appropriate amps to the battery. Keeping the voltage setting higher will assure the current is measured at the correct voltage to indicate a truly full battery.


Both our shore charger and solar controller actually control the charge cycle off these same setpoints through their internal monitors, so getting the settings accurate and very difficult to confuse is very important. For a monitor, you get bad information, but it doesn't control anything unless it is tied into a centrally controlled system.

[themexicandoctor]

Crushed with patients until 4am - but yes my concern was the 13.6 Charged Voltage setting, on the Battery Monitor, not the 13.4 Float or 14 Absorption.

As ti the other great info you shared, I will answer tomorrow.

THANK YOU!

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by Winston

Mdoc, wperspective.

lost ‘the flow’ of this thread so perhaps a slight refocus will clarify whether there are any outstanding issues. As we recall, you replaced an old frig with a new compressor model and it is working fine and your system is supplying more than enough power to operate it. You also expressed concern that your system might not be operating at maximum/proper efficiency. Although we are uncertain what has led you to this concern, nothing you’ve said suggests to us that your system isn’t wired properly and efficiently. Whether your charger “is armed” or whether you keep your inverter “on” are not really wiring errors, rather choices we each make on how we want our system to operate. Concerning your photos and the question whether you’re “already armed to charge” . . . the only way to tell is to plug in shore power and see if your Magnum “Chg” light, lights. And if it doesn’t illuminate - - and you want to be armed - - all you need do is press the Magnum “Chg” on/off button and you’ll be armed.

And, George, we weren’t questioning the truth of the Urban Legend that says ‘inverters waste energy when left on’, only that we accept this waste (more like 40 watts in our case) as the cost that must be paid to achieve the desired “like home” operational mode. MDoc, turning-off your inverter is the norm in the RV world particularly where, like yourself, you rarely use 120 VAC. Indeed, we suspect that we (and possibly Davydd) may be the only RV’ers who squander and waste energy by leaving our inverters on 24/7.

Let us know if we’re missing something.

As to the armed charger, I hope to check tonight.

I have a feeling that my turning the charger off was correct.

This morning at 3am I was awoken by the low battery alarm - the battery went below 12.3.

I turned the fridge down from 5 - 3.

At 5, the fridge was an average 27.8%.

At 3, during this heat wave it went up to as high as 37.9.

These SENSORPUSH Devices are incredible, instant understanding of what the real temperature is and the humidity.

I also have one mounted above the driver - this week the vehicle had several days of 114%!

Going to my mailbox, just received another for the rear bed area.

So last night the fridge was working all night & I could see the amps.

And THIS WAS MY INITIAL CONCERN, A DC FRIDGE needing more power than I could harvest when not driving enough.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by booster

Without going back into all the discussion previously, I think the Dr was referring to the Victron setting for "charged voltage" in the battery monitor, which is not the absorption or float voltage necessarily. It is only the threshold selected to the meter to be able to say the battery is fully charged when also meeting the amps the battery setting.


This has nothing to do with the actual charging of the battery in a monitor, only the in the monitor determining if the battery really got full, or not. Normally, I would set the charged voltage setting .1 or .2v below the absorption setpoint so that it sure to reach it in absorption as the voltage can vary a bit with temp compensation and such. Hopefully, the Victron would compensate closely the same as the charger, so the difference is small enough to get by with only a couple of tenths of a volt descrepency.


The whole idea behind this setting, which is what allows the monitor to judge the battery being full by using the, in this case Lifeline, specification for charging their batteries to full. It has be set far enough above the float voltage to prevent the monitor from showing a fully charged battery in float where the current will also drop a bunch a give a false "full battery" reading. Getting that setting as close as possible to absorption voltage will also help keep the solar from generating a false "full battery" reading on the monitor. Solar is famous for going to full absorption voltage and then a cloud comes over and limits output enough to drop voltage a ways, maybe down from the 14.3v to 13.8v, and the current also drops at the same time because the batteries is getting nearer fully charged. It easily then could reach the two setpoints on the monitor if they were set to 13.6v and the appropriate amps to the battery. Keeping the voltage setting higher will assure the current is measured at the correct voltage to indicate a truly full battery.


Both our shore charger and solar controller actually control the charge cycle off these same setpoints through their internal monitors, so getting the settings accurate and very difficult to confuse is very important. For a monitor, you get bad information, but it doesn't control anything unless it is tied into a centrally controlled system.

I do want to get some consensus on the 13.6 CHARGED VOLTAGE SETTING in the app, in fact in the heat of yesterday I changed it to 13.4 just to be cautious.

I do understand Booster's position above, after all its only a Meter & I am not changing the Float at 13.4 or the Absorption at 14.4.

The extra one tenth ie; 14.3* versus 14.4 is the former number is in the manuals but Andrew Finkelstein who is the Sales Manager there said the 14.4 float & 13.4 bulk is better.

I decided to exercise my Generator & at 5.59pm I took this first photo after the generator had been running for a few minutes with the ac on, showing ABSORB CHARGING AT 14.1 with 0 amps*

*I remember somewhere I am supposed to know what this means

The second photo 2 HOURS later shows FLOAT CHARGING AT 13.3 with 0 amps

Third photo I turn the generator off and it lands on 12.9

Fourth, Fifth & Sixth photo are what happens after i start the generator again a few minutes later (there was a drop to 12.8 because of the voltage draw to kick start the generator), & as you can see the unit goes up to 13.5, 13.9 until a couple of minutes later its back in ABSORB CHARGING at 14.3 with 0 amps.

I know the Generator is good.

What is about the 0 amps do I need to know, is it so.ethig to the effect the unit is running but no amps are going to the battery because its full?

[themexicandoctor]

Hope they are in order.

They are not & one is missing but I did see the progression with my own eyes.

[themexicandoctor]

This is my Meter 20 minutes later with several lights on which I just turned off

[themexicandoctor]

Been plugged into shore power for over an hour now.

When i plugged it in, no shore power light came on. However the Green LED light that says CHG comes on.

That is the chg light above the inverter light & then there is the green led light that says Power button on top lights up.

But when i pressed the Charger on off button it scrolled to Charger Standby, from what i read, Charge Standby doesn't allow the unit to charge even though power is running through it.

I think I have 20 amps coming in.

Waiting for the unit to go into Float so that I can put it in Equalisationfor 4 hours but its been stuck on this screen reading the whole time.

ABSORB CHARGING 14.3volts + 0A

I used to equalize it with the AC DC PROPANE FRIDGE using ac & going into float very quickly but nothing is happening.

No ac loads are on but perhaps the DC fridge of which I purchased the AC Option.

I wonder if I need to unplug the AC cord - this is frustrating.

[themexicandoctor]

Here is the photo of it stuck on Absorb 14.3 with 0 amps.

I then disconnected the AC Cord to the fridge & the display moved to Absorb 14.4 with O amps.

This is very concerning, I know power is going through because Appliances work if I plug them in.

My Victron BMV712 is reading a chatge 14.38volts.

Current is 0.67ah

Pover is 10 watts.

Temperature is 25.

[themexicandoctor]

I have never, ever, had this issue before.

I might disconnect the shore power.

[themexicandoctor]

Sent an email to Magnum, disconnected the Shore Power.

[booster]

Does your Magnum have a BMK shunt kit on it? I would guess it doesn't because of the screen you are on, but want to make sure.


It is essentially impossible for the charger to read 0 amps at absorption voltage I think. I have never seen that happen with our batteries ever. Very low amps, yes, but never zero. That said, the screen you are in indicates it is an internal amp reading from inside the Magnum itself, and I have found that on our MS2000 that amp reading is considerably inaccurate when compared to the reading off the shunt.


It actually sounds like you may have an output breaker or fuse tripped, but in that case the charger usually wouldn't activate at all with most smart chargers.



Were you in the sun, so the solar could have been holding up the voltage?

[themexicandoctor]

This
is the reply I got from Glenn Darby at Magnum;

Mark

When our unit is in absorb charge mode we only push the amperage needed to maintain that voltage. Unplug from shore to see if unit inverts and then plug back into shore to start charge. If batteries are at or higher than 12.8 unit should go directly into the float mode. Also check charge settings in control panel.

Booster,

It was midnight, no sun.

I am going to reattach the shore power & see what happens - I have actually seen this a lot. Am I at risk of damaging my batteries with this level of Absorption, 2 hours, no Float

[booster]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

This
is the reply I got from Glenn Darby at Magnum;

Mark

When our unit is in absorb charge mode we only push the amperage needed to maintain that voltage. Unplug from shore to see if unit inverts and then plug back into shore to start charge. If batteries are at or higher than 12.8 unit should go directly into the float mode. Also check charge settings in control panel.

Booster,

It was midnight, no sun.

I am going to reattach the shore power & see what happens - I have actually seen this a lot. Am I at risk of damaging my batteries with this level of Absorption, 2 hours, no Float

If the meter is accurate on the amps being generated there would no current and no hazard, but that is not really possible with the lifelines.



Take a look at the Vicron monitor when this happens and see what the amps are there, as that should be measuring the amps to the batteries directly. If it is zero also at 14.4v, there is some kind of charger issue, I think, but my guess is that you will see an amp or two, at least, on the Victron. As I mentioned, the internal measuring of the Magnum is likely not really accurate.

[themexicandoctor]

Don't know what happened last night, I should have checked the amps on the Victron - I couldn't find any breakers tripped.

I have now put it in Equalisation mode, its at 15.4 so far with a 9amp reading.

I will connect with Magnum later but shore enough, when I reconnected the shore power, the unit is now reading;

Float Charging 13.4, 0amps

Whereas the BMV712 is reading 13.37 volts, 4.11amps, 55watts.

Here are some photos attached. I am not losing my Mind.

By the way, could the Solar be contributing during shore power hookup?

Because the photo I am sending suggests it is.

[GeorgeRa]

It seems you are equalizing your batteries rather often. My Fullriver AGMs recommends not to do that so for the last 7 years I didn’t.

[themexicandoctor]

Now the Solar Controller has turned off, here is a photo of both the MTTP & the Meter.

I don't know what happened last night, I did everything right & while I have seen the 0 amps at the Magnum before its never not gone into Float within 60 minutes of attaching to Shore Power.

In hindsight I woukd have been best to reconnect it last night but I thought it was safer to wait until I had some answers - could have been a temporary glitch between systems?

Now I am going to stay parked, Equalise the batteries (its been 2 months) & see what happens.

[booster]

Solar absolutely will contribute and could shut off the output to the batteries. You solar voltage is higher than the Magnum voltage so that is a sure sine it will be carrying almost all the load.