SOFC Fuel Cells

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Bud

Is anyone using a fuel cell in any way to run a/c? Even to just charge batteries with or without solar to run the a/c?



Bud

Not that I've seen. Running the A/C would require a massive fuel cell. But the combination of a big battery bank, max solar and a small fuel cell would allow a lot of A/C use.

[hbn7hj]

The Airforum Efoy thread died last January but it was interesting. The 80AH system is a bit too small, I think.

For the guy that wanted to recharge his batteries in 30 minutes we offer the Lead Acid/Lithium hybrid system.

It appears the SOFC on propane has a life limiting problem of some sort.

All in all a hybrid system with a propane fueled generator running 30 minutes a day is a better solution than the fuel cell though I'm still interested in the fuel cell experiment.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

All in all a hybrid system with a propane fueled generator running 30 minutes a day is a better solution than the fuel cell

That would be swell. The problem is that I would have to run my genset not "30 minutes", but FIVE HOURS daily to match the power I would get from the (near-silent) fuel cell. This is just not acceptable to many of us.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by avanti

That would be swell. The problem is that I would have to run my genset not "30 minutes", but FIVE HOURS daily to match the power I would get from the (near-silent) fuel cell. This is just not acceptable to many of us.

That is the point. For $1500 you would be down to 30 minute generator runs. Less $ if you would settle for a 50 AH Lithium battery. One Lithium battery, one Lithium battery charger, one DC to DC charger and you are there. You do need the space.

I seldom run the generator more than 30 minutes because the initial charge rate is 130 amps. If the sun isn't out I'll run another 15 minutes in the evening. Lead acid batteries charged to 100% daily, rain or shine, with 30 minute generator runs.

I still am hoping for fuel cell success. Efoy is there except for fuel cost. If you could source your own methanol they are there.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

That is the point. For $1500 you would be down to 30 minute generator runs. Less $ if you would settle for a 50 AH Lithium battery. One Lithium battery, one Lithium battery charger, one DC to DC charger and you are there. You do need the space.

I seldom run the generator more than 30 minutes because the initial charge rate is 130 amps. If the sun isn't out I'll run another 15 minutes in the evening. Lead acid batteries charged to 100% daily, rain or shine, with 30 minute generator runs.

I still am hoping for fuel cell success. Efoy is there except for fuel cost. If you could source your own methanol they are there.

I think we are talking past each other. If you can get by running your genset 30 minutes/day, then you are consuming only a tiny amount of power every day.

I can easily do that now with my second engine generator on a quick trip to the store (or whatever). My interest in fuel cells stems from my desire to run the A/C for significant periods. I can do two hours now starting with a full charge. With a fuel cell, I would be able to double that without adding battery.

[hbn7hj]

Probably are talking past each other. I use up to 100AH per day, most of it replaced by generator but some by solar (200 watts of panels.) That is not a tiny amount of power with the major draw being sat TV and furnace. I need to use the catalytic heater more.

I am using that amount of power with short generator runs. The hybrid system allows that with it's 130 amp charging rate and that is the point I'm trying to make. A full lithium system would be a little better, probably.

A/C use is not in my power budget. Not sure how I could handle that. I'm at 5000' in the spring and 9500' in the summer. Probably would need 400AH more of lithium battery and that probably wouldn't do it. A/C for me requires the generator.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Probably are talking past each other. I use up to 100AH per day, most of it replaced by generator but some by solar (200 watts of panels.) That is not a tiny amount of power with the major draw being sat TV and furnace. I need to use the catalytic heater more.

I am using that amount of power with short generator runs. The hybrid system allows that with it's 130 amp charging rate and that is the point I'm trying to make. A full lithium system would be a little better, probably.

A/C use is not in my power budget. Not sure how I could handle that. I'm at 5000' in the spring and 9500' in the summer. Probably would need 400AH more of lithium battery and that probably wouldn't do it. A/C for me requires the generator.

I'm wondering if the best solution for moderate amp use with a new B would be to blow off the LOUD onan and solar, then go with agm and second generator underhood vs solar and LOUD onan.

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

A/C use is not in my power budget. Not sure how I could handle that. I'm at 5000' in the spring and 9500' in the summer. Probably would need 400AH more of lithium battery and that probably wouldn't do it. A/C for me requires the generator.

As I said earlier in this thread, I could easily handle 4-5 hours of A/C every night if I had a continuous 500A charge source such as a fuel cell. THAT is what I find exciting about the technology. If A/C is not a goal, existing technologies are more than adequate. An Onan would not be my first choice, though (see below).

Originally Posted by Bud

I'm wondering if the best solution for moderate amp use with a new B would be to blow off the LOUD onan and solar, then go with agm and second generator underhood vs solar and LOUD onan.

Almost certainly. That is exactly what I have now. Since I installed my second engine generator several years ago, I have literally NEVER used my Onan in anger. Not sure why I don't just pull it. You still want modest solar, though. Best way to keep your AGMs full and healthy.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

I'm wondering if the best solution for moderate amp use with a new B would be to blow off the LOUD onan and solar, then go with agm and second generator underhood vs solar and LOUD onan.

Bud

That question is why a lot of people are going to the engine generator, which has it's pros and cons, mostly pros if you don't need AC AC being needed changes the equation IMO as it take huge amounts of batteries, usually lithium and even so needs a lot of engine running. 12 hours of AC is going to use over 1000ah which have to be replaced and the engine generator is going to only average somewhere in the 170ah per hour, so something like 6 hours of driving or idling to replace the AC use.


The downside of ditching the solar on an AGM setup is that the solar is very useful for doing the low amp "top off" charging that takes many hours (like about 8 hours) once you get to 70% SOC. Without solar you would have to run the engine that long or be plugged in to get the AGM batteries full and prevent capacity walkdown.

[markopolo]

Take a look at this cornucopia of more exciting offerings: Telecogroup/Telair - Products

As we are talking about DC output in this topic then the 230V AC output doesn't matter when the "super-silent" LPG generator is coupled with a 230V AC input battery charger -> Telecogroup/Telair - ENERGY 8012G

Those gensets look similar in size and shape to the Onan's in Class B's.

-------------------------

For a larger RV's with many more options for mounting and storage of a generator then the electric start Champion Dual Fuel would likely be the best price point to beat. -> https://www.championpowerequipment.c...fuel-inverter/ <- couple that with auto gen starting capabilities of a Samlex EVO 3012 and its 130A DC charger output it is way more capable then this other stuff. It could cycle the air conditioner as needed during the day and also charge the batteries up for night quiet time A/C use. If the battery bank was a hybrid 200Ah lithium / 400Ah AGM combo what more could anyone need?

[Mfturner]

Marko, have you found a YouTube demo to see how silent it really is? Looks awesome.

Avanti, you mean 50-60 amps right, 500w?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Mfturner

Avanti, you mean 50-60 amps right, 500w?

Not sure what you are asking. The WATT unit can supposedly produce 500 watts continuously, which is north of 40 amps.

[Mfturner]

Avanti, thanks, I was just making sure I understood post #28

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Several folks on AirForums have been using the EFOY fuel cells for years.

Here is one of the longest threads that I'm reading now.
The fuel cell experiment - Airstream Forums

Excellent find Boxster! Hands-on report beyond the usual proof-of-concept projects. We learn that the E-Foy works but it has to work most of the time (max of 3 amps for the E80), even for low consumption scenarios. And it hums ...all night, when you would need it most to supplement solar charging with continuous low power charging. And the E-Foy is very quiet, rated at 22 db, imagine the Watt system at 45 db at 3ft. Works best with external storage compartments in class A and C. The rated consumption is also an issue regarding the availability/delivery of the required and pricey extra pure methanol. At least it is a very reliable albeit pricey solution for a (semi-)quiet alternative to generators.

E-Foy Q&A from Westernmarine
EFOY Q & A





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[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Mfturner

Marko, have you found a YouTube demo to see how silent it really is? Looks awesome.

I haven't looked at any reviews or any videos of any of the items I've posted links to. I know I just don't need any additional power source at the present time. It's fun to look at what is available though.

[Mfturner]

Sounds good, I too was just curious. I'm in between vans right now, so I have too much time on my hands. Our van we pick up at the end of the month will attempt to solve this with 13.5 kw of Volta, high capacity generator, and more efficient ac. I doubt I'll need to think about it much, although I probably will until I get used to it lol.

[Boxster1971]

This short thread on AirForums from last year discusses several available SOFC fuel cells.

The Fuel Cell - Airstream Forums

[Gemlake]

James from the Fit RV spoke with WATT at the Pomona show. Here's a link to the blog: https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-tips/the...n-rv-near-you/

The WATT rep confirms a few new details: WATT was certified for use in April; the units for Roadtrek will be placed underneath the vans; the cells can be stacked (although there is no indication that Roadtrek will stack them); the output is dc; and there will be a remote control panel. WATT is also working on a home application that sounds interesting. It would generate 1.5 kw and use natural gas.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

Excellent find Boxster! Hands-on report beyond the usual proof-of-concept projects. We learn that the E-Foy works but it has to work most of the time (max of 3 amps for the E80), even for low consumption scenarios. And it hums ...all night, when you would need it most to supplement solar charging with continuous low power charging. And the E-Foy is very quiet, rated at 22 db, imagine the Watt system at 45 db at 3ft. Works best with external storage compartments in class A and C. The rated consumption is also an issue regarding the availability/delivery of the required and pricey extra pure methanol. At least it is a very reliable albeit pricey solution for a (semi-)quiet alternative to generators.

E-Foy Q&A from Westernmarine
EFOY Q & A .

Thanks George. The EFOY Q&A got me to look closer at the EFOY web pages and I noticed they have teamed up with MasterVolt to created an integrated system.

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/efoy-ma...energy-systems

Neat stuff - this pdf of the integrated system looks very interesting and should give WATT lots of competition if some USA RV manufacturer picks it up as an option to compete with Roadtrek.
https://www.efoy-comfort.com/sites/d...d%20EN_neu.pdf

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Neat stuff - this pdf of the integrated system looks very interesting and should give WATT lots of competition if some USA RV manufacturer picks it up as an option to compete with Roadtrek.

The special, unobtainable fuel makes EFOY a total non-starter, at least for me. As I say, I am looking for less hassle, not more.

Competition is good, though.