Booster and Markopolo, this is why I love this forum!
First off deadman cables...wow. Reminds me of a guy I saw at a flea market once selling a cable set that had a 110v male outlet at one end and jumper clamps on the other. He asserted you could jump a car battery with this rig. Psychopath. I just hope noone was killed by this
I see the issue with only isolating the hot and will go to a 3PDT relay. Your drawing is close but I am assuming the GoWise Inverter establishes N-G bond when operating. When shore or generator power is present the relay will isolate all 3 wires from the inverter. So even if the inverter is turned on or left on its AC power will not be connected to anything. I tend to leave inverter switched off unless I need it. The TrippLite inverter was good for little besides charging phones or computer.
Another arrangement that may be preferable would be to take the feed TO the TrippLite and split it directly to the relay, eliminating any reliance on the TrippLite's pass through function.
Booster and Markopolo, this is why I love this forum!
First off deadman cables...wow. Reminds me of a guy I saw at a flea market once selling a cable set that had a 110v male outlet at one end and jumper clamps on the other. He asserted you could jump a car battery with this rig. Psychopath. I just hope noone was killed by this
I see the issue with only isolating the hot and will go to a 3PDT relay. Your drawing is close but I am assuming the GoWise Inverter establishes N-G bond when operating. When shore or generator power is present the relay will isolate all 3 wires from the inverter. So even if the inverter is turned on or left on its AC power will not be connected to anything. I tend to leave inverter switched off unless I need it. The TrippLite inverter was good for little besides charging phones or computer.
Another arrangement that may be preferable would be to take the feed TO the TrippLite and split it directly to the relay, eliminating any reliance on the TrippLite's pass through function.
Yes, that is a better way and it would be the essentially the same as the sketch in post 16. You should be able to split of the AC to the Tripplite in the box it pluge into for it's power.
Finished the DC side and have most of the mounting done. Remote mounted and working. The Water Heater Control was relocated when I installed a Victron Battery Monitor. The new Inverter Control went where the old inverter control was located.
The DC breaker was located where it can be reached by removing the lower drawer in the Head.
Also ran the split off the TrippLite AC In, which will feed the relay.
I finished the installation today. The Pure Sine Inverter successfully powers the TV and the Keurig.
Here are a couple of photos. The 3PDT Relay did not come with wiring instructions but with the clear case on the relay it is pretty obvious. The relay is mounted on the floor of the compartment.
I found a 3-prong plug that is a 90-degree mount and can be rotated. Space is at a premium.
I used heavy duty shelf brackets with 1/4 -20 bolt attached to secure in place. one bolt is attached to the TrippLite 110v Connections cover.
I just completed a week long boondocking experience. First off I have to say that having the Victron is essential to knowing how battery power much I am using and how long batteries will last. The only thing is that it is essentially an instantaneous read, so if nothing happens to be on, it shows a long time left, but turn on a few lights and that time gets shorter.
That aside, in 7 days with fridge on propane (which uses some DC on control circuit, plus 0.2 amps on the aux cooling fans), lights as needed, and water pump, my State of Charge went from 100% to about 60% by end of the week.
4 of the 7 nights we watched a movie using the inverter to power TV and DVD player. Left inverter off the rest of the time unless needed.
Although I did not have any hookups, I did run generator 10-15 minutes each morning to make coffee. That usually bumped the SOC back up 1-3%. As stated earlier I had successfully run the Keurig off the inverter, but decided to just use the generator to not unnecessarily drain battery power.
We had access to another bathroom so only used the on-board head at night and first thing in the morning (2 people) and by day 7 it was FULL. The 10 gallon black tank is definitely the most limiting parameter on our RT.
Another observation, the least limiting parameter seems to be propane. That might be different if we were running generator to power Air Conditioning, but with hot water, fridge and occasional furnace on cold nights 12 gallons lasts a loooong time. Wouldn't mind trading 6 gallons of propane space for 6 more gallons of black water capacity...
I have learned about one other aspect of the electrical system (thanks Booster)- the vehicle will not tolerate shore power from a GFCI source - it trips the GFCI. I have seen a lot of posting about this around the web and found that it is due to the TrippLite Inverter Charger. Putting the TL in charge only mode does not solve the problem. Based on other posts and forums, a lot of RV folks have spent a lot of money trying to find the "fault" in their RV. My solution at home is to run shore tie from a non-GFCI. I plan to carry a couple of non-GFCI outlets in my tool box and if I am needing shore power at a friends house and they don't mind, I will temporarily swap out their GFCI for a conventional outlet.
So bottom line I am quite pleased with the coach power performance modifications.
Based on the discussions I have seen concerning the tendency of Tripplite Inverter chargers to trip GFCIs I have decided to remove the Tripplite and replace it with a Progressive Dynamics PD9260C converter/charger. I picked this model for size as it should occupy a smaller footprint than the Tripplite while still allowing for adequate ventilation. As seen from the pictures of my inverter install, the space is packed.
I did confirm that when isolating the Tripplite (securing its feeding breaker) I could connect to a GFCI. Turning on the Tripplite trips the GFCI.
The discussion of neutral to ground bonding has been on my mind. I noted Booster's drawing suggesting a jumper in the connection of the inverter output to the RV, but have contacted GoWise to confirm whether the inverter establishes this bond. I suspect it does, but if not I will make the independent connection. Note that the 3PDT relay would isolate the inverter when other 120vac is present, so there would not be a multiple nueutral ground bond created.
Getting back to the install, I thought that now that I have 1500/3000w of pure sine wave AC, why not also connect in the entire system? For those unfamiliar, the Roadtrek is set up with a 15a circuit breaker feeding the Tripplite. The 120v output goes to a plug that feeds a circuit with one kitchen outlet and the TV/DVD outlet. This connection functions as a pass thru when generator or shore power is present. It would add much convenience if the enture panel could be powered by the inverter.
There is a transfer switch (ABT) in the same compartment that connects the generator or shore power to the system. The output goes to the breaker panel on the vehicle control center above the sliding door.
My plan is to reconfigure the 3PDT relay such that its coil power is taken off the ABT, and the ABT power out goes in one input to the relay. The inverter output goes in the other input to the relay. The relay output then goes to the Breaker Panel. I attached a diagram...
The feed from the breaker panel that previously went to the charger, and subsequently to the other downstream "inverter outlets" would go directly to the inverter outlets, with a split off going to the new charger via another 3PDT relay. This relay would actually function as a 3PST, so that the charger would only receive power when shore tie or generator were hot. This would prevent the charger from operating when receiving power from the inverter (essentially using the batteries to charge themselves).
I have had a "workaround" of carrying a spare non GFCI outlet with me, and swapping out the receptacles at various places I stay. That is a bit of a nuisance I will not miss.
Based on the discussions I have seen concerning the tendency of Tripplite Inverter chargers to trip GFCIs I have decided to remove the Tripplite and replace it with a Progressive Dynamics PD9260C converter/charger. I picked this model for size as it should occupy a smaller footprint than the Tripplite while still allowing for adequate ventilation. As seen from the pictures of my inverter install, the space is packed.
I did confirm that when isolating the Tripplite (securing its feeding breaker) I could connect to a GFCI. Turning on the Tripplite trips the GFCI.
The discussion of neutral to ground bonding has been on my mind. I noted Booster's drawing suggesting a jumper in the connection of the inverter output to the RV, but have contacted GoWise to confirm whether the inverter establishes this bond. I suspect it does, but if not I will make the independent connection. Note that the 3PDT relay would isolate the inverter when other 120vac is present, so there would not be a multiple nueutral ground bond created.
Getting back to the install, I thought that now that I have 1500/3000w of pure sine wave AC, why not also connect in the entire system? For those unfamiliar, the Roadtrek is set up with a 15a circuit breaker feeding the Tripplite. The 120v output goes to a plug that feeds a circuit with one kitchen outlet and the TV/DVD outlet. This connection functions as a pass thru when generator or shore power is present. It would add much convenience if the enture panel could be powered by the inverter.
There is a transfer switch (ABT) in the same compartment that connects the generator or shore power to the system. The output goes to the breaker panel on the vehicle control center above the sliding door.
My plan is to reconfigure the 3PDT relay such that its coil power is taken off the ABT, and the ABT power out goes in one input to the relay. The inverter output goes in the other input to the relay. The relay output then goes to the Breaker Panel. I attached a diagram...
The feed from the breaker panel that previously went to the charger, and subsequently to the other downstream "inverter outlets" would go directly to the inverter outlets, with a split off going to the new charger via another 3PDT relay. This relay would actually function as a 3PST, so that the charger would only receive power when shore tie or generator were hot. This would prevent the charger from operating when receiving power from the inverter (essentially using the batteries to charge themselves).
I have had a "workaround" of carrying a spare non GFCI outlet with me, and swapping out the receptacles at various places I stay. That is a bit of a nuisance I will not miss.
There was another discussion on here a while ago that was looking to do very similar with a standalone inverter and standalone charger setup. It would pay to try to find that thread. The bonding issue was definitely discussed as was eliminating any and all possibilities of having two AC sources connected at the same time.
I think the final solution that appeared best to me could be done by adding a second automatic transfer switch and wouldn't need any other relays. The advantage of the automatic relays is the prioritizing and isolating of the AC sources. The main issue IIRC was because the inverter was a standalone and got no AC power at all from anywhere other than itself it could accidentally be left on and if it was autobonding or full time bonded (which is apparently common with some inverters) the neutral and ground could be bonded). Since the auto transfer switch would have shut off both neutral and ground from the sources, it appears, when not in use the question would be if there was any consequence to not worrying about it as the bond link would not be connected to neutral, just the grounds connected. My guess is that it would be OK, but a single pole relay might be needed based on opinion on that.
This would make your wiring much simpler, especially since the inverter, charger, and transfer switch are in the same compartment.
Shore power and generator to transfer switch 1
Output from transfer switch 1 to top priority input of transfer switch 2
Output from inverter to second input of transfer switch 2
Output of transfer switch to to breaker panel
If yours is wired similar to our 190 was, the Tripplite power came from the breaker panel and as you say the output went to the inverter circuits. Just tie them together in a junction box or put a plug on one and a socket on the other and they will run off the old charger breaker in the panel.
I was looking at transfer switches and that could work. I note that unlike a relay they have a delay built in. They are also much larger than the relays. Since I already have the 3PDT relay in place I will at least try it at first. The relay will isolate all 3 conductors from the ABT (Generator or shoretie) or from the inverter so there will be no chance of duplicate neutral-ground bonding.
Since the charge has no AC out, I will use a SPST NO relay to connect the hot lead when shore tie or generator is available.
If the inverter was turned on with other AC available its output would be totally isolated by the relay. The way I operate is usually to just turn the inverter on when I have need and off when done. It has an on light on my control panel so I would normally notice if it was on.
I was looking at transfer switches and that could work. I note that unlike a relay they have a delay built in. They are also much larger than the relays. Since I already have the 3PDT relay in place I will at least try it at first. The relay will isolate all 3 conductors from the ABT (Generator or shoretie) or from the inverter so there will be no chance of duplicate neutral-ground bonding.
Since the charge has no AC out, I will use a SPST NO relay to connect the hot lead when shore tie or generator is available.
If the inverter was turned on with other AC available its output would be totally isolated by the relay. The way I operate is usually to just turn the inverter on when I have need and off when done. It has an on light on my control panel so I would normally notice if it was on.
The extra isolation of ground certainly won't be a bad thing.
Do you have contact safe AC relays or are you going to put them in boxes? That had been one of my ongoing concerns when I started looking at out redo a few years ago as the space considerations build up quickly.
The only thing on your wiring diagram that might be and issue would inverter circuits and charger being on the old Tripplite power line from the main panel. I think it is only about 15 amps so you would probably wind out pretty close, or over, if the charger is at full output and you try to use anything fairly large on those outlets. I think you could run the charger direct, through a breaker as you will have a wire size reduction to the charger, from the ABT. The relay could probable go a away and only the 3 outlets would be on the 15 amp breaker.
The 40a 3PDT relay is plastic encased. Its base has exposed screw terminals, each in a separate slot and they will be taped, but the entire relay is well out of reach. the SPST relay for the new charger will have insulated spade connections.
The old charger was 55W 3-stage and the new one is 60W and 4 stage. So I see that as one might a light bulb. I hear what you are saying about peak load on the 15a circuit, but do not believe that will be an issue. The highest potential draw on that circuit beside the charger would be the Keurig. I do like the idea of feeding the charger direct off the ABT and directing the 15a circuit solely to those downstream outlets. That would eliminate the need for the second relay. Good thinking!
The 40a 3PDT relay is plastic encased. Its base has exposed screw terminals, each in a separate slot and they will be taped, but the entire relay is well out of reach. the SPST relay for the new charger will have insulated spade connections.
The old charger was 55W 3-stage and the new one is 60W and 4 stage. So I see that as one might a light bulb. I hear what you are saying about peak load on the 15a circuit, but do not believe that will be an issue. The highest potential draw on that circuit beside the charger would be the Keurig. I do like the idea of feeding the charger direct off the ABT and directing the 15a circuit solely to those downstream outlets. That would eliminate the need for the second relay. Good thinking!
I think the Tripplite would have been a 45 amp of charging unit so upwards of 650 watts plus inefficiencies probably would use about 7-8 amps of 110v AC. That and the Keurig would almost certainly put you over 15, I think, and it just makes sense, as you say, to move the charger to direct anyway.
Sounds like you are well on your way. Out of an abundance of redundance ("engineering term" of the safety guys) and the AC accessibility, you may want to get a 110v AC sticker for the relay and any other place it may be a hazard like if you add a breaker to the charger. I just went through similar on an HRV ventilator at home that I made a new discreet relay control system for as the original touch screen setup locked up at least once ever couple of weeks and couldn't be trusted to run when we were away. I had to have a similar plastic terminal strip for the motor power cables, inside the unit, but out of the screwed on cover area that the smaller OEM stuff lived. I got the labels for it and the 12v control strips and labelled them all, even in the screw on cover ares, so nobody could get confused in the future. Nearly all our industrial equipment at my previous jobs came labelled like that in recent years and it made trouble shooting much easier and safer.
I made the attached PDF to keep with the Roadtrek documents. I noted one other change. The power supply to the charger does not need its own relay since the 3PDT relay isolates the ABT output, the charger only can receive power when shore tie or generator are connected.
I am adding a 15a breaker for the power supply from the ABT to the charger.
I didn't go back over it all again to see, but do you have a shunt and monitor in the system? Now that you have the PD charger, and I think it comes with the pendant, you will be able to force the charging stages to what you want if necessary. This can give you the charging accuracy of the much more expensive shunt controlled systems like Magnum, although you would need to do some manual input based on a battery monitor information.
There is quite a bit of information on the charging and using a PD pendant to optimize it when necessary here on the forum, and it appears to work well for those who choose to do it.
There was another discussion on here a while ago that was looking to do very similar with a standalone inverter and standalone charger setup. It would pay to try to find that thread. .
The installation was essentially as described, but on Booster's advice I changed from the 3PDT relay to a second transfer switch. The principle reason is the relay, although rated for 40a, was much less robust than the 30a transfer switch.
The new charger has a smaller footprint which allows for some improved airspace in this cramped compartment.
To answer Booster, the new charger does have the pendant. I also have a Victron battery monitor (with shunt). I want to mount the pendant on/near the "Control Center" above the sliding door. The original cable is not long enough, but I will resolve that soon.
The pictures show the electrical compartment as reconfigured, and with the inverter in position above the other equipment. The PDF shows the final schematic and writeup.
One other sidenote: The 2nd ABT suggested wiring would have the inverter dominant (turning on the inverter would switch power to the inverter), but I prefer the system to be dominant on the generator/shore tie feed.
Markopolo, thanks. I don't see any problem with a 15a breaker on the line solely serving the charger drawing 11.4a. (Recall the original arrangement had the15a breaker on the circuit serving the Tripplite and its two downstream outlets.) The breaker protects the line from being overheated in the event of excessive draw.
Linear Mode
