Roadtrek/Hymer Lithium/2nd alternator/Voltstart issues?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Avanti, IIRC in the past you mentioned something about Mercedes saying that the most you could take off their stock alternator was something like 45? amps, I think. On a setup like that, the battery to battery charger might not work if MB is actually comparing alternator output against what the van is supposedly using for stuff and battery charging. Have you heard anything about that situation?

Actually, the limit in the guidelines is 40 amps. Given that this is routinely ignored by many upfitters (especially DIY ones), I suspect that it is pretty conservative. I personally would not hesitate to use a 50 A DC-DC charger, but even that technically violates the guidelines. I think going any higher with an Intelligent Charging system would be a bad idea. (N.B.: although these guidelines apply to all recent model Sprinters, and Sprinters have had LIN-controlled alternators for a long time now, only the I4 engine actually has a true intelligent charging system.)

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by avanti

The following is from the Sprinter Body & Equipment Guildlines 2015:
::
So, basically, the retrofit you describe is just not possible.
::

The more reason to stay with the Chevy Express LOL

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

The more reason to stay with the Chevy Express LOL

Except the Chevies have a smart system on them also. How smart, I don't know, but nobody sells an add on system for them except with a standalone second alternator, so may be the same deal.

[BBQ]

.

Oops.

[gerrym51]

the roadtrek additon was for a chevy. Maybe they stil can be done?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Cruising7388, I don't have an answer yet on the failure of the Balmar MC-614 regulator. I am in touch-and-go communication with Adam Nations of Nations Starter and Alternator who is very personable. I will update when I have an answer. In short, it fried. I would have thought there'd be a fuse to keep that from happening, but the 10A fuse only protects the system downstream from the regulator, like the inverter. We lost all coach power about 15 minutes after I unknowingly used the a/c and microwave simultaneously ( the mic for only 60 seconds ), but IT DID NOT QUIT DURING USE OF THE MICROWAVE, if that overload was the cause as one would think. I am told by Mac at Roadtrek that the system cannot handle both the mic and the a/c simultaneously, ever. Live and learn. Nevertheless, it has not been determined why the regulator fried and why it isn't protected. That is all I know right now.

I would appreciate your keeping on top of them because there are a lot of these regulators out there supporting engine generators..

The frying of the unit is perplexing because it is protected by a 1 amp ATC fuse for signal level inputs&outputs and by a 10 amp ATC fuse for the power side, i.e. the blue field wire to the alternator field terminal which typically runs about 6-7 amps at peak alternator demand. How the unit can destruct internally without blowing the 10 amp fuse(s) is a question that they need to address. Is the autopsy being conducted by Nations or Balmar?

I also don't think the simultaneous AC + microwave is responsible for the subsequent regulator failure. Mac at Roadtrek is correct advising that the microwave shouldn't be fired up while running the AC but I believe his concern here is with overloading and tripping off the inverter, not damage to the alternator or regulator. It's interesting that the inverter was up to supporting both loads for a full minute. Is your inverter the 2.5k model? What BTU is the AC and what's the power consumption of the microwave?

[booster]

This whole thing doesn't make sense at all, to me. The regulator doesn't regulate amps directly, it changes the volts to field, and the field takes amps based on those volts. Once you hit full system voltage, it can't take more amps unless the field shorts, I would think. I think the Balmar can run 2 alternators for a total of 15 amps of field current, so just not likely one alternator should be able to fry it from overload.

Add to all that the fact that you have a bunch of batteries in the system, lithium at that, that would easily make up the missing amps to run both the AC and microwave.

Time to start again looking at the inverter, breakers, wires sizes, compatibility, basically all the stuff Roadtrek tends to do rather poorly. Who knows what happened, but maybe the inverter did a fast overload shutdown, basically taking the alternator from putting out full output to nearly zero in a very short time. This can cause huge spikes that are known to take out alternators, and it is why they say you should always shut the alternator off with a field or activation switch and not an output switch. IIRC Avanti went through a lot of work to make sure his system shuts off that way, although I don't know what would happen if his inverter dropped out. The batteries would still be there to absorb some of the spike, but it might not be enough.

My guess would be the issue is more inverter related than alternator/regulator, and it also points out an issue that could happen to many of us if we blow a fuse or an inverter shuts down.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

This whole thing doesn't make sense at all, to me. The regulator doesn't regulate amps directly, it changes the volts to field, and the field takes amps based on those volts. Once you hit full system voltage, it can't take more amps unless the field shorts, I would think. I think the Balmar can run 2 alternators for a total of 15 amps of field current, so just not likely one alternator should be able to fry it from overload.

Add to all that the fact that you have a bunch of batteries in the system, lithium at that, that would easily make up the missing amps to run both the AC and microwave.

Time to start again looking at the inverter, breakers, wires sizes, compatibility, basically all the stuff Roadtrek tends to do rather poorly. Who knows what happened, but maybe the inverter did a fast overload shutdown, basically taking the alternator from putting out full output to nearly zero in a very short time. This can cause huge spikes that are known to take out alternators, and it is why they say you should always shut the alternator off with a field or activation switch and not an output switch. IIRC Avanti went through a lot of work to make sure his system shuts off that way, although I don't know what would happen if his inverter dropped out. The batteries would still be there to absorb some of the spike, but it might not be enough.

My guess would be the issue is more inverter related than alternator/regulator, and it also points out an issue that could happen to many of us if we blow a fuse or an inverter shuts down.

The regulator is designed to deliver up to 15 amps for dual alternator applications. However, stock units employ a 10 amp fuse. If the field shorted, this fuse should blow.

Yes, the coach batteries will augment amperage delivery by the alternator to the inverter but the inverter will in any event trip above 2.5k output. And note that the inverter didn't do a fast shut down. In fact, it didn't shut down at all and furthermore, the AC and microwave loads were not shut off simultaneously so the inverter was nowhere near in overload when the regulator failure occurred.

As you say, it just doesn't make sense. I hope either Nations or Balmar actually determines what caused the meltdown rather than just throwing it in the scrap can and replacing it.

[booster]

The guess would be the something happened to take out the regulator, which I still think could be from the inverter doing something, or it could have been just a bad Balmar, as that does happen. Full load will not kill the regulator of alternator for moderate periods of time. If there is a circuit breaker in the output wiring, it could have cycled and caused a spike.

My bet would be that the Balmar failed, and the coach ran on the batteries until they hit low voltage cutoff 10 minutes later, killing all coach power.

[avanti]

The Balmar is potted for weather protection. An autopsy would be a challenge.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

The guess would be the something happened to take out the regulator, which I still think could be from the inverter doing something, or it could have been just a bad Balmar, as that does happen. Full load will not kill the regulator of alternator for moderate periods of time. If there is a circuit breaker in the output wiring, it could have cycled and caused a spike.

My bet would be that the Balmar failed, and the coach ran on the batteries until they hit low voltage cutoff 10 minutes later, killing all coach power.

If the sequence reported is accurate, I can't see either the alternator or the regulator being taxed just by a sudden ramp down of inverter load since this is a commonplace event that takes place each time the AC unit or the microwave is turned off.

The regulator has a battery input that, among other purposes, acts as the fixed +12V terminal of the field winding. In view of the fact that the microwave, the AC, the inverter and the alternator are still intact, (although there is no mention of whether the alternator has since been tested), my guess is that the regulator +12V input shorted to ground internally in the regulator somewhere upstream of the 10 amp fuse and generated sufficient heat to trash the internals.

[booster]

The spikes that kill the alternators or electronics come primarily from interrupting the output side, eg going from 280amps to nothing if a breaker trips or someone opens a disconnect switch. A micro or AC going on or off is very much buffered by comparison. If the inverter does a voltage shutdown, how it all happens would be determined by the design of the inverter, and it would be a smaller spike anyway as batteries would be there to buffer the spike somewhat.

[Beanbug]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I would appreciate your keeping on top of them because there are a lot of these regulators out there supporting engine generators..

The frying of the unit is perplexing because it is protected by a 1 amp ATC fuse for signal level inputs&outputs and by a 10 amp ATC fuse for the power side, i.e. the blue field wire to the alternator field terminal which typically runs about 6-7 amps at peak alternator demand. How the unit can destruct internally without blowing the 10 amp fuse(s) is a question that they need to address. Is the autopsy being conducted by Nations or Balmar?

I also don't think the simultaneous AC + microwave is responsible for the subsequent regulator failure. Mac at Roadtrek is correct advising that the microwave shouldn't be fired up while running the AC but I believe his concern here is with overloading and tripping off the inverter, not damage to the alternator or regulator. It's interesting that the inverter was up to supporting both loads for a full minute. Is your inverter the 2.5k model? What BTU is the AC and what's the power consumption of the microwave?

Cruising 7388:

I have asked Adam Nations to do his best to determine why the regulator destructed. Investigation is still in process ... his latest reply to me:

"I tried everything you discussed on the Sprinter I have and it didn't phase it. If the regulator failedit would only cause a non charge situation and wouldn't keep anythingfrom functioning until the battery/ies are dead."

My inverter is the 3 kw. BTU of the microwave is 1050w. input.

On a more general note, the Forum consensus seems to be:
1. For prolonged A/C use a conventional generator is the most reliable power source.
2. The 800 amp [ i.e. four EcoTrek modules ] would come closest to providing the 4 hours of battery powered a/c reliability I wanted. [Note: That wouldn't fit on my Versatile 170 which I bought for its small size / short wheelbase ]
2a. It is impractical for me to just trade it in for a larger RT.
3. RT is misleading buyers about the lithium ion battery performance whether intentionally or not.
4. Given the vehicle I have, the safest solution is to leave the engine running with the dash a/c on except that as time goes by there is a question about growing campground regulation against this, not to mention the nuisance factor to others.

I must say, I am deflated with my purchase. My wife is absolutely dissatisfied. I feel RT misrepresented the suitablility of the product for my stated intent of use. I probably would have purchased the vehicle except with AGM batteries and a conventional generator. And now I will seek to find the best possible remedy.

Thanks to the forum for the real world input.

[Viperml]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Cruising 7388:

I have asked Adam Nations to do his best to determine why the regulator destructed. Investigation is still in process ... his latest reply to me:

"I tried everything you discussed on the Sprinter I have and it didn't phase it. If the regulator failedit would only cause a non charge situation and wouldn't keep anythingfrom functioning until the battery/ies are dead."

My inverter is the 3 kw. BTU of the microwave is 1050w. input.

On a more general note, the Forum consensus seems to be:
1. For prolonged A/C use a conventional generator is the most reliable power source.
2. The 800 amp [ i.e. four EcoTrek modules ] would come closest to providing the 4 hours of battery powered a/c reliability I wanted. [Note: That wouldn't fit on my Versatile 170 which I bought for its small size / short wheelbase ]
2a. It is impractical for me to just trade it in for a larger RT.
3. RT is misleading buyers about the lithium ion battery performance whether intentionally or not.
4. Given the vehicle I have, the safest solution is to leave the engine running with the dash a/c on except that as time goes by there is a question about growing campground regulation against this, not to mention the nuisance factor to others.

I must say, I am deflated with my purchase. My wife is absolutely dissatisfied. I feel RT misrepresented the suitablility of the product for my stated intent of use. I probably would have purchased the vehicle except with AGM batteries and a conventional generator. And now I will seek to find the best possible remedy.

Thanks to the forum for the real world input.

Contact a lawyer. You might be able to force Hymer to take it back if you can prove false advertising.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Cruising 7388:

I have asked Adam Nations to do his best to determine why the regulator destructed. Investigation is still in process ... his latest reply to me:

"I tried everything you discussed on the Sprinter I have and it didn't phase it. If the regulator failedit would only cause a non charge situation and wouldn't keep anythingfrom functioning until the battery/ies are dead."

My inverter is the 3 kw. BTU of the microwave is 1050w. input.

On a more general note, the Forum consensus seems to be:
1. For prolonged A/C use a conventional generator is the most reliable power source.
2. The 800 amp [ i.e. four EcoTrek modules ] would come closest to providing the 4 hours of battery powered a/c reliability I wanted. [Note: That wouldn't fit on my Versatile 170 which I bought for its small size / short wheelbase ]
2a. It is impractical for me to just trade it in for a larger RT.
3. RT is misleading buyers about the lithium ion battery performance whether intentionally or not.
4. Given the vehicle I have, the safest solution is to leave the engine running with the dash a/c on except that as time goes by there is a question about growing campground regulation against this, not to mention the nuisance factor to others.

I must say, I am deflated with my purchase. My wife is absolutely dissatisfied. I feel RT misrepresented the suitablility of the product for my stated intent of use. I probably would have purchased the vehicle except with AGM batteries and a conventional generator. And now I will seek to find the best possible remedy.

Thanks to the forum for the real world input.

What Adam is saying makes sense, and is what I had guessed in post #89

"The guess would be the something happened to take out the regulator, which I still think could be from the inverter doing something, or it could have been just a bad Balmar, as that does happen. Full load will not kill the regulator of alternator for moderate periods of time. If there is a circuit breaker in the output wiring, it could have cycled and caused a spike.

My bet would be that the Balmar failed, and the coach ran on the batteries until they hit low voltage cutoff 10 minutes later, killing all coach power."

The 10 minute lag would be the give away, I think. Does Adam know that you had the 10 minute delay before the batteries died? The regulator could have failed some time before you shut off, even, so the batteries would already be very low at shut off.

[Beanbug]

Booster, yes, I made Adam aware that there was a delay from when the mic and a/c were on simultaneously to when all power was lost to the coach. So I guess the failed regulator was the culprit that resulted in the coach losing all power and, since the inverter needs to be on to recharge from shore power, we couldn't do that either. Only replacement of the regulator enabled us to recharge the lithium batteries. Now I understand. Thanks.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

"The guess would be the something happened to take out the regulator, which I still think could be from the inverter doing something, or it could have been just a bad Balmar, as that does happen. Full load will not kill the regulator of alternator for moderate periods of time. If there is a circuit breaker in the output wiring, it could have cycled and caused a spike.

My guess is still that the regulator failure was internal and not caused by an external event involving the alternator, inverter or 120V loads, all of which, if I understand correctly, remained intact. Since 120V circuit breakers require a manual reset when tripped, any automatically resetting circuit breaker would have to be between the alternator and the inverter and battery inputs. Assuming this, any rapidly making and breaking loads inducing spikes would impact the alternator diodes, not the regulator which would be doing nothing more than adjusting alternator field current in concert with any make and break pattern experienced at the alternator output.

BTW, IMO, replacing the regulator will not resolve what I think is a glaring system flaw, which is the requirement for the inverter to be operational for the batteries to see the shorepower charging module. This is the opposite of the conventional transfer switch protocol for inverter/chargers like Xantrex, Magnum et al which default to the shoreside input when the inverter is shut off or disabled.

[gregmchugh]

Have you contacted Roadtrek directly to see how they respond to your issues?

Many owners have gotten a good result in response to a non-threatening description of their issues without any threat of involvement by a lawyer. I suggest an initial positive approach with no explicit complaint that Roadtrek deceived you with their marketing to see how they respond.

Jim Hammill gives out his email to use to contact him directly with concerns if you don't get an initial response that you find satisfactory.

jimhammill@icloud.com

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Have you contacted Roadtrek directly to see how they respond to your issues?

Many owners have gotten a good result in response to a non-threatening description of their issues without any threat of involvement by a lawyer. I suggest an initial positive approach with no explicit complaint that Roadtrek deceived you with their marketing to see how they respond.

Jim Hammill gives out his email to use to contact him directly with concerns if you don't get an initial response that you find satisfactory.

jimhammill@icloud.com

It may not help to get Hammil in on it, as it appears from and earlier post that it was he who caused the "misunderstanding" in the first place.

From and earlier post " We truly bought this vehicle because we thought, and were actually led to believe by Jim Hammill, CEO of Roadtrek, that the VoltStart and UG would keep the A/C running continuously, so we did not have to fear that our dog would be jeopardized. Jim even did some electrical calculations in front of us when we negotiated the purchase."

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Booster, yes, I made Adam aware that there was a delay from when the mic and a/c were on simultaneously to when all power was lost to the coach. So I guess the failed regulator was the culprit that resulted in the coach losing all power and, since the inverter needs to be on to recharge from shore power, we couldn't do that either. Only replacement of the regulator enabled us to recharge the lithium batteries. Now I understand. Thanks.

Exactly. Compared to alternators, regulator failures aren't common, but they're also not unknown. Ironically, if the failed Balmar regulator resulted in an audible and visual alarm signal, you would be able to drop appliance loads or at least secure one of the batteries which would preserve inverter operation that would allow subsequent shoreside recharging. But if all the batteries are depleted to BMS shutdown, down goes the inverter and without any alternator function, it appears that you are SOL. Unfortunately, RT doesn't provide any indication of coach battery state except for a recently included volt meter which is pretty inadequate for determining the state of charge.