Roadtrek Ecotrek and Voltstart

[wincrasher]

Well, I'd admit that this year would be a tough one to write manuals - so many changes to the systems to get them to work. You'd continually be sending out new pages!

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

They may be limiting what the customer gets to keep that information from the independent repair shops, so you have to go back to Roadtrek or a dealer to beg for help.

As I used to suggest to my co-workers when I worked for a living, you can think management is clueless about what they are doing or you can think management has a grand plan to execute some strategy to screw you, but they can't really be both...

Your suggestion seems more strategic than I would expect than the general suggestion here that they are clueless...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

As I used to suggest to my co-workers when I worked for a living, you can think management is clueless about what they are doing or you can think management has a grand plan to execute some strategy to screw you, but they can't really be both...

Your suggestion seems more strategic than I would expect than the general suggestion here that they are clueless...

I think it could also indicate they are indeed clueless on tech issues and customer service, but very un-clueless in customer manipulation, and Kool-aid

[BobB]

They really need BOTH kinds of manuals:

The "Quick Start" Guide

and

The "Full In-depth Manual"


Not that uncommon nowadays. Just look at computers, cameras, audio, automobiles, etc.

Give ME the choice. Don't give ME the choice and I will choose the one I want.

If RT dumbs down the info, i.e the Choice - the "trust me" route - they just lost a potential customer. RV buyers need both choices.

[Davydd]

I don't think information and manuals make a lot of difference in making a decision what you are going to buy. On all three of my Class Bs I didn't have a clue what I would get before I took actual possession. With my Pleasure-way and Great West Van the info was very basic and sparse. There was some what this is on most items but little why in the manual.

You can have all the manuals in the world and even more on CDs and it wouldn't be enough. We even had two full days of orientation with the company staff and two shakedown boondocking nights before leaving the factory. There was still a lot of learning, questions and mystery. Trust me on that.



I don't think Roadtrek is losing any potential customers on this. It still comes down to what the company offers, whether you want it or not, and whether anyone else can match it. BTW, Advanced RV is no direct competitor anymore than Lamborghini is to Chevy (OK, that's hyperbole.) Winnebago is a direct competitor. Each company probably builds in a week or two what Advanced RV has built to date.

[GeorgeB]

Always interesting to read how newcomers have to deal with important seasonal maintenance like winterizing. There are manuals, but then the design of user-friendly systems is where manufacturers often don't invest a lot. The manuals should be embedded in the systems, at least for basics tasks.

WEBASTO AND WINTERIZING WOES | The Etrek Blog

[gregmchugh]

If documentation is an important criteria for you, then Winnebago might be the winner with detailed drawings, parts lists, etc. online for each model. I do say that this is very rare and goes to the rigorous design processes used at Winnebago and shows that they build large quantities of RVs without significant design changes along the way.

As others have pointed out, Roadtrek seems to have a propensity these days for not building the exact same configuration for any significant length of time. Duplicating their old style manuals with detailed info would be literally impossible without significant effort. I guess it also makes one wonder what formal design and assembly information is used to drive manufacturing when the changes come at them frequently. They use small teams for manufacturing so I wonder if each team specializes in specific models so they see less change in design than is happening overall.

[wincrasher]

Well, for those of us with heavy industrial experience, we all know that you don't get a high quality product without consistent manufacturing processes. You don't have consistency without documentation. It really is a cultural thing and is required to move to the next level. Savvy builders know these things help fine-tune your costs and enhance profitability.

Winnebago's methods surely are not the norm in the RV industry. It's one factor (of many) in a buying decision in my mind. Some people could care less I suppose.

I'd bet that ARV would give you a complete set of drawings if you wanted them. Since their design is completely 3d modeled and their cabinetry is cut on CNC routers, they surely have them. Most end users probably wouldn't think to want them, since they got all their customizing done at the time of build and probably have no reason to need to know what's inside the walls. But if you went in for a refit down the line, they could pull up your build on the computer and start work from there.

[BobB]

Sorry about the mini rant on the manuals; could not find a Snickers bar

I do like manuals - both to answer the "quick, how do I do this, since it's been a year since I last did it" questions and the longer "before I make any changes I better figure this out" type of question. Maybe that's why I do like my '99 Winnebago Eurovan Camper. I have all the manuals, electrical and plumbing schematics, parts lists, etc. from Winnebago and they have been very useful in dealing with a 16 year old RV.

I am also a bit of a luddite - I like things electronic, but I also love paper. Davyyd - Great to see that ARV gave you printed manuals.

I know, this could all be digital and maybe even on video. Ever try to find that one 4 second snippet on a "how-to-video" that tells you where that particular switch is? Manuals have their place in life.

I am waiting for the day when the RT customer who has lost power on his 1600AH LithiumIon, 800W solar, 5000W inverter, Super Zion and goes to figure out what to do by watching the video.

Oh, right, no power.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

If documentation is an important criteria for you, then Winnebago might be the winner with detailed drawings, parts lists, etc. online for each model. I do say that this is very rare and goes to the rigorous design processes used at Winnebago and shows that they build large quantities of RVs without significant design changes along the way.

As others have pointed out, Roadtrek seems to have a propensity these days for not building the exact same configuration for any significant length of time. Duplicating their old style manuals with detailed info would be literally impossible without significant effort. I guess it also makes one wonder what formal design and assembly information is used to drive manufacturing when the changes come at them frequently. They use small teams for manufacturing so I wonder if each team specializes in specific models so they see less change in design than is happening overall.

If our 07 Chevy was typical of how model, feature, changes happen at Roadtrek, they are pretty sloppy in the implementation and design. They continued to assemble the same as the old style and then modify it to the new, it appears. They moved the inverter and power section from the driver to passenger side, for instance. They still ran the battery cables all the way over to the drivers side from the passenger side battery cabinets as they always did, and then ran more cable back to the passenger side. Old style harnesses used and full of splices and coiled up extra wire. Inside water tank was molded to fit around the furnace, but they moved the furnace and still used the same tank, just turned it so you couldn't see the wasted space from the old furnace clearance. On and on.

[booster]

Documentation does cost money to write and to upkeep, so I would not have an issue with the more technical (not use stuff) being optional at added cost. I always shell out for a factory service manual for our vehicles, as there is no reason the manufacturer should have to eat the cost for all the customers that would never use one. I would pay a reasonable amount for wiring, plumbing, component locations, and a good parts list.

Most of the industrial equipment I dealt with would come with what you would need to keep it running. Wiring, plumbing, component locations, bills of materials, etc, but it was very, very, rare to be able to manufactured part prints from them as those were considered their property. If we contracted a piece of special machinery, we would usually write into the contract that we owned the design, as often the specialty builders would hold the drawings and really kill you on repair parts, if we didn't.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Duplicating their old style manuals with detailed info would be literally impossible without significant effort.

That's why many manufacturers post pdfs of their manuals on their websites. Easy to change, update the revision #/date, and post. If you want a nice printed one, take the pdf to Kinko's and they'll print and bind one for you (for a nominal fee). Just bought a Sony camera. Came with a small printed "quick start guide". Their "Help Guide" is a pdf - 453 pages long. I print out the few pages I want for reference and keep the pdf on my iPad.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BobB

That's why many manufacturers post pdfs of their manuals on their websites. Easy to change, update the revision #/date, and post. If you want a nice printed one, take the pdf to Kinko's and they'll print and bind one for you (for a nominal fee). Just bought a Sony camera. Came with a small printed "quick start guide". Their "Help Guide" is a pdf - 453 pages long. I print out the few pages I want for reference and keep the pdf on my iPad.

I agree completely with the idea that a customer who wants it should have a way to get detailed info on the design of the van, maybe even paying extra for it. My point was that even to create online PDF documentation, with the extreme number of configurations built by Roadtrek, would take significant effort.

Whether those of us who want it will get it from Roadtrek seems very very unlikely at the moment, they have decided not to do it even at the level that was in the old manuals, like it or not. I don't think they see a high enough demand from customers for it and they don't think they see lost sales from the decision and in the end they seem to be wanting to keep all this info close to the vest these days. Could that change? Does Hymer provide that level of documentation? Maybe it could change...

[Davydd]

There are so few Advanced RVs built that each and every Owner's manual is custom because, even though they start out from a basic floor plan, I have yet to have seen an identical ARV and I have seen quite a few of them. They have a guy that puts them together. My manual had a lot of original color photos of my actual van illustrating what I had and how to use it. The custom articulating beds were one such example.

Since I bought mine, ARV has upped their design game. Now a customer can get a computer generated design from Solidworks 3D CAD software illustrating how it will look in animated walk throughs with the color and design schemes the customer chooses.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

There are so few Advanced RVs built that each and every Owner's manual is custom because, even though they start out from a basic floor plan, I have yet to have seen an identical ARV and I have seen quite a few of them. They have a guy that puts them together. My manual had a lot of original color photos of my actual van illustrating what I had and how to use it. The custom articulating beds were one such example.

Since I bought mine, ARV has upped their design game. Now a customer can get a computer generated design from Solidworks 3D CAD software illustrating how it will look in animated walk throughs with the color and design schemes the customer chooses.

I would expect no less if I was buying a custom van from a low volume, high quality, top of the line company Like ARV. They are likely worth the money and wait to get one for those with the finances to afford one. Since much of the customization seems to be related to color and materials, providing detailed renderings during the design and also getting a hands on feel of the materials for the options makes perfect sense.

For the rest of us with average accommodations, we will just have to live with less 😉

[Davydd]

I had a definite design goal for mine for both function and layout. As it turned out Advanced RV was the only company that could execute it. I designed the articulated beds originally based on some European manufacturers and made a commitment in May, 2014. It had to be custom especially in size and Advanced RV could not get those companies to sell the beds for RV purposes. It wasn't until July that an American company came out with a new line of home and hospital electrically operated articulating beds that made it even feasible to do. That was unanticipated and fortunate. Then the fun began with design and mockups. I got a few things I had not envisioned such as programmable bed positions and operation from a smartphone or tablet, and vibrating head and foot modules with three different speeds. I don't really use the vibration but it is fun to demonstrate.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Does Hymer provide that level of documentation? Maybe it could change...

I could not find any links to "owners manuals" or similar on the Hymer site, but when I googled for it, a number of links, some to Hymer Clubs (need to be a member), came up for owner's manuals. Did find an actual 2004 Hymer Motorhome "Instruction Manual" - 243 pages long, very detailed, first pages are for all the factory inspection and test sign-offs and guarantees.

Perhaps such an "instruction manual" still ships with all Hymers, but does not seem available on the their regular website.