Roadtrek Ecotrek and Voltstart

[markopolo]

I haven't read every post re: ecotrek lately because, like others, I expect that the setup will evolve fairly quickly.

It just occurred to me that the added coach AGM (in addition to supplying power to boot the BMS) would also be used to supply light so you can see all of the switches and move around the coach without a flashlight at night. It could power the fridge and furnace for a bit if needed.

It could get you through the night if you were where starting the engine is not a option because of say campground quiet hours.

I guess the design of adding an AGM to the coach side is to avoid the risk of running down the chassis battery and also being unable to start the engine.

These are complete guesses on my part - I haven't seen one.

[gregmchugh]

Time will tell if Ecotrek and Voltstart are now working reliably with the added AGM battery but I am still wondering how well Voltstart will handle the detection of the low battery condition. With the rapid drop off in voltage of the lithiums near the point where they are likely to have the voltage trigger it would be critical to restart the engine before the BMS shuts down the battery module at the maximum discharge point. Once the battery shuts down it would appear that only manual intervention with the reset switch can bring it back online for recharging. Assuming you are running the air conditioner you have a pretty good load on the batteries and they are discharging pretty rapidly and voltage is dropping pretty rapidly. I guess the safe approach is to set the Voltstart trigger voltage well above the BMS shutdown to avoid the issue so it may not be that hard to get it working reliably. A resulting reduction in the overall time you can run on Voltstart may not be significant.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Time will tell if Ecotrek and Voltstart are now working reliably with the added AGM battery but I am still wondering how well Voltstart will handle the detection of the low battery condition. With the rapid drop off in voltage of the lithiums near the point where they are likely to have the voltage trigger it would be critical to restart the engine before the BMS shuts down the battery module at the maximum discharge point. Once the battery shuts down it would appear that only manual intervention with the reset switch can bring it back online for recharging. Assuming you are running the air conditioner you have a pretty good load on the batteries and they are discharging pretty rapidly and voltage is dropping pretty rapidly. I guess the safe approach is to set the Voltstart trigger voltage well above the BMS shutdown to avoid the issue so it may not be that hard to get it working reliably. A resulting reduction in the overall time you can run on Voltstart may not be significant.

greg-your too negative. It may seem like a jury rigged fix but i think it will work out. I will say though based on what i have read all the great parameters have been abandoned.I suspect all the benefits of deep disharging lithiums for long runs of air conditioning have been abandoned.Voltrek goes in to effect far earlier-and the resetting of lithium shut down has to occur earlier. i suspect that system reset will be a common occurence instead of an occasional one. However since it can be easily reset know it won't be an issue

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

greg-your too negative. It may seem like a jury rigged fix but i think it will work out. I will say though based on what i have read all the great parameters have been abandoned.I suspect all the benefits of deep disharging lithiums for long runs of air conditioning have been abandoned.Voltrek goes in to effect far earlier-and the resetting of lithium shut down has to occur earlier. i suspect that system reset will be a common occurence instead of an occasional one. However since it can be easily reset know it won't be an issue

Gerry, I called the fix reasonable and I continue to be positive that Roadtrek will get it all working no matter what it takes even if they have not gotten it all worked out yet...

I am simply wondering if Voltstart is going to reliably provide the benefits that they keep touting. Want to leave your pet in the van all day, no problem Voltstart can handle it...

The manual reset works fine but is useless when using Voltstart if it doesn't reliable restart before the batteries shutdown. To get it to reliably do this, they may have to give up some run time under Voltstart.

Given the general attitude here, I think I am not very negative about Roadtrek at all. I fact, I believe I am the most honest and objective person on the planet, well maybe just in the room with me at the moment...

[BobB]

Well, it does seem a solution is on the horizon, but I have been following this thread for a while now and was just wondering.....

On page 1 (of the 27 pages) Wincrasher asked "And how much extra $ was all this equipment to get that?" referring to an 800ah bank and Voltstart. And I keep reading that all this seems to be so you can keep your van locked up tight with your pets inside and the A/C on??

This system is going to take a lot of $$$, but does not seem to make much sense. I mean people in RVs have been traveling with pets for a long time in Class Bs or smaller, no hookups, and they did not have 800ah of lithium banks, A/C, and Voltstart. Insulate heavily and/or park in the shade, install at least one (maybe 2) good roof fans, like Fantastic or Maxx Air, open some screened windows or maybe some screened floor vents. How much power does that take?

Unless you want to go to Burning Man with your pooch, I think that may work.

Just taking a sanity check here.

[gregmchugh]

BobB,

Maybe to you and me the money people are willing spend to pamper their pets is unreasonable but based on the stuff people buy it seems to be very common to spend a lot on pets. And based on the dialogue on Roadtreking there are plenty of people who are interested in spending the money to outfit their van to pamper their pets. At the current MSRP prices at Roadtrek for the Zion the cost is something like:

Engine Generator: $3523 ($250 less than an Onan)
Ecotrek 400: $5000
Voltstart: $1900
300w Solar: $3500

Which is of course much more than this stuff would cost to do it yourself but most of these customers are looking to buy a fully configured van ready to go.

They want to be able to leave their pets in the van on a hot day while they do who knows what. They are also sometimes concerned with the issue of being in an area where people will see the pets in the van unattended and call the authorities even when the pets might be fine with just the vent fan running and some windows open.

There seem to be plenty of people willing to buy this stuff at these prices and I think Roadtrek is going to do well with these offerings.

It is not something many of us would do but it seems to hit a market segment out there.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

It is not something many of us would do but it seems to hit a market segment out there.

Greg,

Thanks for the explanation. Never thought that was such big market out there. I guess time will tell as to how many such configurations RT sells or if others, like WGO, also add such options. If others start offering similar packages, we might expect the prices to come down, too.

If one did not want the Voltstart (and were not running A/C all the time) , would the whole system be simpler, and would you still need the extra AGM?

[gregmchugh]

If you have the lithium Ecotrek batteries it appears you are going to get the add on AGM but I don't believe you pay anything extra for that. Not sure the size of this AGM

You can go with standard AGMs instead of paying for the Ecotrek option and in some models you can add extra AGMs as an option.

The Voltstart and the solar are options in all cases.

Not many are paying the $250 extra for an Onan and are getting the engine generator.

I took these prices from the Zion options but I think they are similar across the other models if they are available on that model.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

If you have the lithium Ecotrek batteries it appears you are going to get the add on AGM but I don't believe you pay anything extra for that. Not sure the size of this AGM

You can go with standard AGMs instead of paying for the Ecotrek option and in some models you can add extra AGMs as an option.

The Voltstart and the solar are options in all cases.

Not many are paying the $250 extra for an Onan and are getting the engine generator.

I took these prices from the Zion options but I think they are the same across the other models if they are available on that model.

on the zion you are actually paying more for the engine generator because the 2000 watt inverter is standard

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

on the zion you are actually paying more for the engine generator because the 2000 watt inverter is standard

???

RT lists generator for $3783 and under-hood (engine) generator for $3523.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

on the zion you are actually paying more for the engine generator because the 2000 watt inverter is standard

??, you get the same inverter in all three cases on the Zion: No generator, Onan, Engine generator, right??

You are right, On some models that come standard with the smaller inverter the engine generator option is higher cost because it includes an inverter upgrade.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by BobB

???

RT lists generator for $3783 and under-hood (engine) generator for $3523.

if you look at the engine generator system on all other models it gets you

a larger inverter/charger/extra batteries/and the engine extra big alternator.

on the zion the 2000 watt inverter is standard either way and you do not get any extra batteries.

I have one

[wincrasher]

After catching up on the latest posts, the word "kludge" comes to mind. Mixed voltages, add on batteries. If the wiring I saw at Hershey was any indication, it's all a big 'ole mess.

It's very telling if the Advanced RV system is all 12v, as Dayvdd reported. That the batttery packs are all one big module, not smaller packs tied together. Simplicity may be elegant, but it may also serve a practical purpose.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

After catching up on the latest posts, the word "kludge" comes to mind. Mixed voltages, add on batteries. If the wiring I saw at Hershey was any indication, it's all a big 'ole mess.

It's very telling if the Advanced RV system is all 12v, as Dayvdd reported. That the batttery packs are all one big module, not smaller packs tied together. Simplicity may be elegant, but it may also serve a practical purpose.

I surely wouldn't argue much with your characterization of the fix as a kludge but if it works and has no significant negative consequences I would call it reasonable. Now they can have happy customers while they work on improvements to remove the add on AGM.

I will say that the strategy of using a single Ecotrek 200 module as a building block for all vans makes sense to me if you are producing lots of vans with different configurations rather than a custom build for each customer. I think they clearly have room to improve the implementation but I suggest that the basic strategy is sound.

I would like them to have the option to connect the modules through a simple network so that you can have a central display/conrol module for diagnostics, dealer troubleshooting, data display, system control, etc. Also make it available as an option for customers possibly with some the functions disabled to prevent configuring the system in a way that might damage the cells.

All right sceptics, send a few cannonballs my way

[wincrasher]

Well, I see no inherent advantages for a company, who barely knows what it's doing, with no professional engineering staff, to have all these configurations and variations of setup.

If they were smart, they'd distill this down to a small pack, and a large pack, and use the same components and wiring diagrams over their product line.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

If they were smart, they'd distill this down to a small pack, and a large pack, and use the same components and wiring diagrams over their product line.

Thinking of some of the comments/observations over on the "Should boat builders get into the RV business?" thread, maybe they should have considered getting someone like MasterVolt, Victron, or BlueSea to have designed a complete proven system and used their brand. Sort of like when a car manufacturer has a Bose sound system.

Oh, that's right --- "we want our name on it and we can save money, too. ". $1.5 million and this is where they got to? I hope it all works out in the end, but........

[gregmchugh]

I am sure the sceptics will feel that it is impossible for Roadtrek to realize it's weaknesses and make improvements and maybe they are right. On the other hand it is possible that Roadtrek or a potential buyer will recognize that to be successful in this new venture of developing their own electronics you need much more engineering expertise, process discipline, rigorous testing, etc. than they currently have. Of course, it will take time, money, and effort to do this but not really a option if they want to be successful with it. Many options to get the expertise that they need quickly: hire it, buy it, borrow it from a likely suitor, whatever, but the current status quo will not, as noted by Wincrasher, lead to a successful future in this new venture.

In terms of the number and size of battery modules used, I will stand by the flexibility to configure and package their wide range of vans using a single module. I don't see how a small one and a big one alone would address their needs very well. If they get it working right I don't see anything wrong with the strategy. The customers are more likely to be attracted to the option to buy just the battery capacity they need and for each van there will be different packaging options to provide those choices, I don't think that just two modues would meet their needs for this flexibility.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BobB

Thinking of some of the comments/observations over on the "Should boat builders get into the RV business?" thread, maybe they should have considered getting someone like MasterVolt, Victron, or BlueSea to have designed a complete proven system and used their brand. Sort of like when a car manufacturer has a Bose sound system.

Oh, that's right --- "we want our name on it and we can save money, too. ". $1.5 million and this is where they got to? I hope it all works out in the end, but........

Well, at this point they have gone where they have gone and probably just need to proceed ahead rather than make a complete change in strategy to use a design for the system from a well known brand. All water under the bridge in my view...

The branding idea works when the brand is well recognized such as Bose but what lithium battery brand is well recognized by the average RV buyer besides Tesla or maybe one of the well known Japanese/Korean companies.

They clearly should have gotten more expertise on the design than they did...

[booster]

I am a huge fan of modularization of products and options. There are lots of reasons why, including cost, ability to prebuild at a vendor, increased option availability, easy retrofit or upgrade, etc. Of course there are the downsides, too. Wasted space when options not used, unused prewiring or other things of all the products to accommodate all possible options, etc.

That said, it is also very important to do it right so that it all functions as if every stage operates as if it was designed specifically. If Roadtrek can set it up to do that, they are on the right track.

Doing the modularization of batteries may be a bit tougher than other products, especially across different platforms, do to the very common need to have very good balance between the modules and cells. I have to assume the cable lengths, number of connections, etc all might affect the end result. The etrek issues with the long cables has shown how severe this can be. We don't know yet, and won't for a while I am sure, how well Roadtrek does it.

[Davydd]

Advanced RV builds 200ah 12v lithium ion battery modules consisting of 4 - 3.2v cell batteries wired in series and can give you 200ah, 400ah, 600ah or 800ah battery wired in parallel controlled by one BMS. They are all put in the same protected steel plate cage housing that is bolted to the bottom of the van and then subsequently encased in a same insulated fiberglass shell and then further protected by a 1/4" thick aluminum skid plate. It is all modular and expandable if you desire if you start out with a smaller bank. There is just one control for the battery pack, not one for each battery and no AGM battery backup. The BMS monitors all 16 individual cells on mine for temperature and voltage. There is built in cell balancing. There is low battery voltage protection. There is overcharging protection. There is automatic low temperature (battery heating) protection. They have a programmable auto start along with the Mercedes Benz fixed high-idle option and a dedicated dual alternator. They've been doing this for one year now, delivered to customers.

There is no secret to what they do. They had a display of how it all worked together at Advanced Fest last May. There was even an assembled battery pack ready for installation on display. They wrote it up on their web site when they announced their ecOasis system. What you can't exactly duplicate, I assume, is the engineering, computer programming and partnerships with several companies to make it all work.