Roadtrek Ecotrek and Voltstart

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

you need the AGM battery to power the control panel in case of an ecotrek shutdown that isolates the ecotrek batteries. I am not an engineer but it is what it is.

seems like a 'Rube Goldberg' contraption to me but as long as it works-aok

Gerry, if that control panel with two manual switches requires external power from the 12v power buss to operate, when they know that the Ecotrek modules will disconnect themselves from the buss, then Roadtrek has reached a new low in design incompetence. If so, then I will join the ranks of the Roadtrek naysayers club here in the forum and have no regrets doing it...

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Gerry, if that control panel with two manual switches requires external power from the 12v power buss to operate, when they know that the Ecotrek modules will disconnect themselves from the buss, then Roadtrek has reached a new low in design incompetence. If so, then I will join the ranks of the Roadtrek naysayers club here in the forum and have no regrets doing it...

Greg-i'm just telling you what dave told me. it was not supposed to be this way. supposedly power from somewhere under the hood was supposed to give control panel enough power to work-this was in a zion.

But it never worked.

again i am not an engineer-buss means nothing to me-i only know what happened in general.

what i do know is an AGM does not have disconnecting issues-total discharge maybe but not disconnecting

I also think they thought this would be a rare occurence not a common one

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

you need the AGM battery to power the control panel in case of an ecotrek shutdown that isolates the ecotrek batteries. I am not an engineer but it is what it is.

I think what gregmchugh is saying is that if you can add a system to get power from the AGM battery, you could add a system to get power from the existing Li battery (bypassing the disabled system). Therefore, the AGM is superfluous.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Greg-i'm just telling you what dave told me. it was not supposed to be this way. supposedly power from somewhere under the hood was supposed to give control panel enough power to work-this was in a zion.

But it never worked.

again i am not an engineer-buss means nothing to me-i only know what happened in general.

what i do know is an AGM does not have disconnecting issues-total discharge maybe but not disconnecting

I also think they thought this would be a rare occurence not a common one

So, that info implies that they planned to use chassis battery power for the control of the Ecotrek modules and likely the Voltstart module also.

I see using chassis battery power for the Voltstart maybe but why tie the Ecotrek system into the chassis battery?

All this does seem to show they either spent way too much time making it more complex than needed or way too little time thinking about how to keep it simple.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by avanti

I think what gregmchugh is saying is that if you can add a system to get power from the AGM battery, you could add a system to get power from the existing Li battery (bypassing the disabled system). Therefore, the AGM is superfluous.

Yes, in my mind a self contained ecotrek battery module should be able to operate completely independent of chassis battery power or an auxiliary AGM battery in the system. I see the need for some external switches, one on/off switch to disconnect the battery module when not in use just like a normal battery disconnect switch and a second reset switch if you have not perfected an automatic controller within the module to operate reliably. I personally would want a central control/display module connected to all the Ecotrek modules to monitor and control the system but that is not a Roadtrek thing these days. I would connect them together with a network of some sort to allow the detailed info from each Ecotrek module to be displayed.

The other approach is a single battery control system connected to a larger bank of lithium cells, as done by Advanced RV, rather than a group of 200 amp hour individual Ecotrek modules with internal battery controllers.

Not sure one approach is clearly superior to the other...

[gregmchugh]

Gerry, I did use the word buss and not quite correctly to refer to a an electrical power connection. There are two 12v power systems in the van, one connected to the chassis battery and one connected to the house batteries. They are normally isolated from each other, but they share a common ground, except when the separator / isolator connects them together to allow cross charging of the batterues.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by avanti

I think what gregmchugh is saying is that if you can add a system to get power from the AGM battery, you could add a system to get power from the existing Li battery (bypassing the disabled system). Therefore, the AGM is superfluous.

I totally agree-however they can't seem to do it-i'm not an engineer

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

So, that info implies that they planned to use chassis battery power for the control of the Ecotrek modules and likely the Voltstart module also.

I see using chassis battery power for the Voltstart maybe but why tie the Ecotrek system into the chassis battery?

All this does seem to show they either spent way too much time making it more complex than needed or way too little time thinking about how to keep it simple.

i did not say chassis battery power. I said under the hood. I do not know alternator or what i said it as dave described it

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

i did not say chassis battery power. I said under the hood. I do not know alternator or what i said it as dave described it

Yes, I guess if you had the engine generator you could go under the hood to tap into the house battery circuit but with the engine off it is still dead under there if the Ecotreks went offline...

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

... they may be getting some custom setup on the Balmar.

I can answer this one... sort of. When I dumped the lithiums for good old AGMs, I asked if the engine generator needed any changes. Both I and my dealer called and emailed Roadtrek and never got a response. Someone here (Avanti?) gave me the link to the Balmar controller. After a couple months and driving to AZ from MN, I figured that I better give up on RT and just call Balmar (as the manual doesn't really cover this question relating to lithiums).

After calling their 800 number, their tech guy gave me the name and number of the person who was working on the RT system. He made me a video with his phone showing me how to re-set it. It was easy. They did say that it probably made little difference that I was driving it on other than the AGM setting.

So it seems that they have a dedicated person setting up the Balmar readers for them.

[booster]

Supplying 12v power when the lithiums are off, or even if they are totally dead doesn't seem like Rocket science to me. You will still have 3 sources of power, the engine generator, solar, and the shore charger if you are plugged in. The solar is probably out because it will need a battery reference. Shore power is easy as all you need to have is a power supply style charger that doesn't need battery reference, like PD seems to do. The engine generator source is also pretty easy, just connect the Balmar voltage reference, temporarily, to the starting battery to get it to activate, once the lithiums come on line, take off the starting battery.

There is no reason that I can see that any engineer, of any type, couldn't come up with solutions to stuff like this. You don't need a PHD electrical engineer (or a nephew). Adding a battery is just the ultimate crummy patch on top of poorly setup system. It was suggested a long time ago that adding an AGM battery to the mix might be needed sometimes, and from the discussions it looked like there were lots of better ways to solve the issues.

[gregmchugh]

I surely hope that the AGM add is a kluge to get the current configuration working while they fix the root cause of the problem and get rid of the AGM...

[gerrym51]

and yet this is what is happening.

one poster got hers 4 days ago and this is what greg is talking about hers.

[Boxster1971]

Brought this over from another thread.

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Probably better discussed on one of the Ecotrek or Voltstart threads but there are now multiple reports that Roadtrek is, at least in some cases, installing an add-on AGM battery in vans that were supposed to be pure lithium. My personal speculation is that it is to resolve issues with triggering Voltstart but it could also be for another issue they have found.

I will add a comment in one of those threads also on this...

It would work OK to have a nice 12V AGM to handle the 12V DC loads and have it charged by the OEM vehicle alternator. Then use the second alternator to charge a 24V lithium battery pack to run the inverter.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Brought this over from another thread.

It would work OK to have a nice 12V AGM to handle the 12V DC loads and have it charged by the OEM vehicle alternator. Then use the second alternator to charge a 24V lithium battery pack to run the inverter.

Read back a little ways, I brought it over here earlier.

The issue here is likely to occur in the 24 volt configurations but is definetly present in two recently delivered Zions with Ecotrek 12v setups with just one or two of the Ecotrek 200 amp hour modules. Roadtrek is adding an AGM to the system not, it would seem, to help power any general loads but to address issues found with operation of a pure Ecotrek battery setup. These vans also have the Voltstart option so that may be part of the issues.

[gerrym51]

greg-why don;t you ask Steven Stanford-he just got his zion back after 2 months. says it's fixed

[gregmchugh]

A recent report indidates the added AGM may be needed even with a system that does not have Voltstart so it may be not be related to Voltstart issues. Since the armchair engineering activity seems to be dwindling here, I will give you some more fodder for spectulation. Here are the Roadtrek instructions for operating the EcoTrek, of course persented in simplified language in keeping with the new owner manual style.

"Each EcoTrek 200 battery has its own control. A single EcoTrek 200 will have one rocker switch at the bottom and one pushbutton switch at the top of the panel. An EcoTrek 400 will have will have two sets of switches, and so on.

The lower rocker switch turns the bank on. In normal operation this switch should always be on. This powers the battery management system which manages all functions of the EcoTrek 200, including charging, voltage protection, and the battery heaters when it gets cold.

The battery management system will turn off if the batteries run down to near empty. At this point, the bank will no longer charge, since the battery management system is required for charging.

If this happens, the upper pushbutton switch works like the "jump start" or "boost" switch that backfeeds the bank long enough for the BMS to boot and start charging the battery.

In normal use you should not need it, but it's there just in case.

You start charging (plug into shore power or start the engine). Hold the switch down for about 30 seconds. The pushbutton feeds the BMS directly from the charge source long enough for it to boot up. Once it's running it will realize it has a charge voltage and start charging the battery."

So, experts, what do make of the added AGM battery? If the BMS shuts down the battery module at the low capacity point and you connect to shore power and reset the BMS I wouldn't expect this to look any different than having the AGM battery in the system and the AGM would seem to not be needed unless the battery charger in the inverter would not produce power without a battery present. If you started the engine with the batteries offline and no added AGM then the house battery circuit would be dead. Would the Balmar regulaor start providing power with no battery attached, that power would be needed to restart the BMS with the reset switch. Is this the condition that requires the battery so that the Balmar will start providing power? I don't know beans about how the battery charger acts with no battery connected or how the Balmar and aux alternator work so I am just wondering if the issue might be something in these two configuration...

[gerrym51]

these were actually the instructions given to people over the phone that had the initial problems-but it did not work.

the AGM is for 2 issues. Power to the bms and battery switch panels so that pressing the ecotrek battery switches for 30 seconds will work. even though people were doing this it did not work.
the additional agm battery enables this to work

even though it seems jury rigged-if it works it works

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

these were actually the instructions given to people over the phone that had the initial problems-but it did not work.

the AGM is for 2 issues. Power to the bms and battery switch panels so that pressing the ecotrek battery switches for 30 seconds will work. even though people were doing this it did not work.
the additional agm battery enables this to work

even though it seems jury rigged-if it works it works

In other words the instructions are still valid and work as long at the added AGM is in place. Not sure how you got two issues out of this but yes the issue would be that there needs to power on the house 12v circuit for the reset switch to provide power to the BMS to reboot and start the lithium charging process.

The issue for the armchair enginners to speculate on is: When the batteries are disconnected by the BMS, why is there no power on the circuit when plugged into shore power or running the engine generator which I expect was the way the system was supposed to work. Or maybe the issue was only with one of the charging sources...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

In other words the instructions are still valid and work as long at the added AGM is in place. Not sure how you got two issues out of this but yes the issue would be that there needs to power on the house 12v circuit for the reset switch to provide power to the BMS to reboot and start the lithium charging process.

The issue for the armchair enginners to speculate on is: When the batteries are disconnected by the BMS, why is there no power on the circuit when plugged into shore power or running the engine generator which I expect was the way the system was supposed to work. Or maybe the issue was only with one of the charging sources...

This goes back to the often armchaired discussion about having a 12v battery reference to initiate the charging sources. Davydd's has the same push and hold setup, but ARV obviously makes sure there is power to initiate whatever source you connected to in your reset. They either are using the lithiums and haven't pulled them too low or the coach battery which is less likely.

Roadtrek must have some issue that kills the lithiums dead enough to not even give reference 12v, or their controls are so poor they don't allow using that source, which would be really sad.

The Balmar requires 12v to intiate AFAIK, but Avanti would be able to explain details. I do remember him contemplating where to hook up the sense wire, so that is likely where the sense comes from. Simply switching to the coach battery for reference to start the system should initiate the Balmar, and once that is running, the 12v should allow the BMS to connect and the shore charger to initiate. Same with solar

As I said earlier, this looks like an emergency bandaid because they don't have a real solution. We have talked repeated here about how you have to make sure you always have the battery reference, unless you use a power supply type shore charger. Davydd has an Outback, so that might be how they get his restarted if is that type, I will try to find out if it needs a battery to come on. The Magnum we have needs the 12v to initiate or it won't charge.

This may also explain the mystery separator that was shown on etrek schematic a while ago. They may have been using it to get the engine generator and shore charger to start if the coach batteries were dead.