Report on problems with my Travato GL

[wincrasher]

Recently took delivery of my new Travato GL. I did have one big problem with the Volta system that I've described in this lengthy blog post.

Wincrasher's Travels

To summarize, we were not getting any charging from the second alternator. I go into the details on how we got it working and some pics from repair day.

[Phoebe3]

Nice post. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if it had to happen, I'm glad it happened to someone who had some experience. If you had been a first time owner, it might still be dragging on.

I read posts from new owners who have a major issue like that and can't manage it because they are still leaning how to dump, what to pack, how to park, etc. A major glitch becomes insurmountable and they get rid of their RV.

Really happy you got it resolved.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Nice post. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if it had to happen, I'm glad it happened to someone who had some experience. If you had been a first time owner, it might still be dragging on.

I read posts from new owners who have a major issue like that and can't manage it because they are still leaning how to dump, what to pack, how to park, etc. A major glitch becomes insurmountable and they get rid of their RV.

Really happy you got it resolved.

+1 on this! ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

p.s. - Very good blog post. Even I, of little knowledge, could easily follow your ordeal.

[booster]

Definitely good writup, bummer on having the issue, though.


One thingcthis this does point out is the potential weakness of the "all in one box" type systems compared to traditional discreet components. This has been discussed here a couple of times in the past. If an all in one fails, you can be out of luck until you can get a skilled in that system repair person on it. Proprietary stuff can be even harder to find qualified help. With the discreet components, lots of places can replace an alternator and regulator, solar controller, or shore charger, and you would be very unlikely to lose more than one at at any given time.


I really like the Volta setup so I hope Wincrasher's issues have just been growing pains and other systems will have better luck. Roadtrek has already proven how frustrating it can be for owners to have repeated problems with their high tech systems and I can only hope that others don't have similar problems.

[wincrasher]

Actually, the whole system is rather modular.

Besides cables and fuses, you have distinct components.

Alternator of course. Alternator control box. DC-DC converter box. Battery Modules. BMS/BMU module. Shunt. Inverter. Inverter control display. Solar controller.

That's about it. I suggested that they actually put an access panel in the floor of the van so you could remove the top of the battery from inside the van. That would make it more user serviceable.

But their scheme now does make some sense to me. They don't intend for any dealer techs take the battery box apart and work on it. They expect them to remove the battery box and ship it back to Volta for repair or replacement. While this has some downsides to the end user (mainly wait times I would image), you don't have to train all these dealer technicians with really advanced skills. This kind of system is really difficult to diagnose - probably all systems would be.

Telling was that they reinstalled a tamper-proof seal on the box after we put it back together. If the end user or dealer opens it up, I assume your warranty would not be honored. They did not say that to me, but that is what I assume from such a thing.

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Actually, the whole system is rather modular.

Besides cables and fuses, you have distinct components.

Alternator of course. Alternator control box. DC-DC converter box. Battery Modules. BMS/BMU module. Shunt. Inverter. Inverter control display. Solar controller.

That's about it. I suggested that they actually put an access panel in the floor of the van so you could remove the top of the battery from inside the van. That would make it more user serviceable.

But their scheme now does make some sense to me. They don't intend for any dealer techs take the battery box apart and work on it. They expect them to remove the battery box and ship it back to Volta for repair or replacement. While this has some downsides to the end user (mainly wait times I would image), you don't have to train all these dealer technicians with really advanced skills. This kind of system is really difficult to diagnose - probably all systems would be.

Telling was that they reinstalled a tamper-proof seal on the box after we put it back together. If the end user or dealer opens it up, I assume your warranty would not be honored. They did not say that to me, but that is what I assume from such a thing.

That description fits pretty well with what the new single source systems look to be heading for. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out over time. I would expect that if they start to get a bunch of bad internet chatter about ruined vacations while waiting for repairs, the procedures might change.


The whole thing is kind like what manufacturing companies when through over the last couple of decades with their purchased from others, specialized machinery. "Back in the day" the factories tried the have spares of all critical parts on hand to be able to fix their production equipment, but as the systems got more and more complex, that model got to be unaffordable to do. Reduction of inventories got to be a very big deal as everyone learned just how much inventory costs to have on hand, so from the OEMs to the end users all got rid of as much as they could from their stocks. The results were borderline disastrous in many cases, with production equipment going down, schedules to be met, but no way to get parts in a hurry because even the OEMs had to build them to order because they had eliminated their stock of spares. I sat in way to many meetings with company executives trying to explain just why it was going to take 10 days before a very critical piece of equipment was fixed, even though we knew what was wrong with it.


By 10 years ago, things had gotten a lot better because the supply chain had figured out that what they were doing was not working well. Most did not hugely beef up their inventory again, but did put in place stock for long lead time items needed to make the assemblies. At the same time, they made designated procedures for service assemblies that normally would ship what you needed in less than one day, many times same day if you ordered by noon. Basically, they had all the parts to build what you needed, did it in less than a day, and same or next morning shipped it to you. They had more inventory than just cutting out almost all parts, but with the finished products not on hand, that inventory normally could be used to build a huge number of finished variations.


If systems like Volta are building a service model of returning the whole assembly for factory service, I think they will need to either have "loaner" assemblies they can ship immediately upon getting the service request. I would guess that could reduce a delay getting back on the road to several day at most. If they had enough of the loaner assemblies, backlog and delays would not be an issue like it would be if you sent you unit in to be repaired and were told you 12th in line. The other way is to send factory techs to each repair, but you can easily get the same backlog delays that way.

[gerrym51]

Ron-glad you got it working. i suspect even if you left it at your dealer they still would end up stymied for weeks without you there.

My only thought is the part that was defective. Winnebego should hope it's not the entire lot.

Other than that the system when working-seems to be all it's cracked up to be.

Good luck for the future

[avanti]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Telling was that they reinstalled a tamper-proof seal on the box after we put it back together. If the end user or dealer opens it up, I assume your warranty would not be honored. They did not say that to me, but that is what I assume from such a thing.

That is telling. It is also illegal:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...ranty-coverage

All those "void if opened" stickers are against the law and have been for a long time. In this case, I suspect it is a naive attempt by a young company to keep their "secret sauce" secret as long as possible, and to try to shut out third-party repair services. But if you bought it, you own it and the law is clear that you are free to take it apart if you like. Your warranty will be fine. Of course, if you break something in the process, such damage is no doubt excluded from the warranty. The other possible exception is an attempt to reverse-engineer their firmware. This is a gray area under active dispute due to the DMCA. That is what
the big "John Deere Tractor" kerfuffle is about. That story isn't over.

Sooner or later someone will do a "tear down" of the Volta mystery box and post the video on YouTube.

[Bud]

Hi avanti,

Yes, agree that there is 'reverse engineering' with lots of stuff.

A couple of years ago I had a heart procedure where a very new 'electrical mapping system' was used. I started asking the very learned cardiologist questions that most patients don't ask. After about the 4th or 5th answer, "I don't know". He said that the answers were not known and the private company would not answer the questions. They were trying to prevent or maybe more like delay the Chinese from "reverse engineering" the $300,000 machine. But 'enough' was known that he got a hospital to pay for it.

Bud

[wincrasher]

The BMU as they called it, appears to be a third party supply. It was packaged in a plastic case with only the wiring connector visible. The technician removed a vendor's sticker off the unit before he installed it. I couldn't tell you who it was, other than it started with an F.

Looking in the box myself, I would agree that attempts to reverse engineer such a system are probably pointless. There really isn't any secret sauce to a system like this, but there probably are secrets to doing it to a price point.

Thankfully, what I saw looked heavy duty and well constructed. I imagine that comes from their history of supplying these systems to the Prevost converters.

Until my warranty is up, I really have no interest in opening the system up and tinkering with it. I am considering going to their shop and having the 4th battery module installed. Also having them install the optional heating pads in it. I explored with them doing this at this session, but it was not possible due to availability of parts - WGO has gobbled up all their inventory and they have a 14 week backlog on cells.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Ron-glad you got it working. i suspect even if you left it at your dealer they still would end up stymied for weeks without you there.

My only thought is the part that was defective. Winnebego should hope it's not the entire lot.

Other than that the system when working-seems to be all it's cracked up to be.

Good luck for the future

Yes. My pestering made alot of this happen and quickly. It probably doesn't hurt that I'm fairly prominent in the Travato group and have my own Facebook group of 10,000 Class B enthusiasts. If not for having access to Russ Garfin (VP at WGO) I'd probably still be waiting.

Thankfully, I seem to be the only one reporting a problem so far. It was very frustrating to sit on the sidelines and read all the posts from the newbs saying how great their new vans were!

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by avanti

That is telling. It is also illegal:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...ranty-coverage

All those "void if opened" stickers are against the law and have been for a long time. In this case, I suspect it is a naive attempt by a young company to keep their "secret sauce" secret as long as possible, and to try to shut out third-party repair services. But if you bought it, you own it and the law is clear that you are free to take it apart if you like. Your warranty will be fine. Of course, if you break something in the process, such damage is no doubt excluded from the warranty. The other possible exception is an attempt to reverse-engineer their firmware. This is a gray area under active dispute due to the DMCA. That is what
the big "John Deere Tractor" kerfuffle is about. That story isn't over.

Sooner or later someone will do a "tear down" of the Volta mystery box and post the video on YouTube.

I think they understand that. It's probably meant to discourage and infer a meaning rather than declare one. The sticker is a silver foil with their Volta logo hologram on it. Says nothing else. Thought of in a different way, it can actually protect the end user. If the seal is unbroken, then the end user cannot possibly be blamed for causing any damage - it's proof positive that I didn't mess it up. If you opened it up, then you could have an argument on your hands and someone would have to prove who did or did not do something - a costly and time consuming exercise. Do you want to spend 3 years of your retirement in a protracted legal battle?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I think they understand that. It's probably meant to discourage and infer a meaning rather than declare one. The sticker is a silver foil with their Volta logo hologram on it. Says nothing else. Thought of in a different way, it can actually protect the end user. If the seal is unbroken, then the end user cannot possibly be blamed for causing any damage - it's proof positive that I didn't mess it up. If you opened it up, then you could have an argument on your hands and someone would have to prove who did or did not do something - a costly and time consuming exercise. Do you want to spend 3 years of your retirement in a protracted legal battle?

That sounds right. They are walking up to the line (which is their right), but as long as the sticker doesn't actually say "warranty void if seal broken" then they aren't breaking any laws and as you say evidence of non-tampering could be good for either party, depending on circumstances.

As everyone surely knows by now, manufacturer misinformation campaigns about warranty rights is one of my hobby-horses. But I agree that this isn't (quite) an instance of that.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Actually, the whole system is rather modular.

Telling was that they reinstalled a tamper-proof seal on the box after we put it back together. If the end user or dealer opens it up, I assume your warranty would not be honored. They did not say that to me, but that is what I assume from such a thing.

WGO/Volta is probably being extra cautious based on all the negative customer feedback Roadtrek experienced as they were working through problems on their solution.

Look forward to seeing this Volta solution as an offering on one of their larger RVs. Thanks for being an early adopter.

[booster]

Does the WGO owner's manual give any clues to how the Volta service is going to be handled? I would think that somewhere along the line they would need to define closely just who will be allowed to work on the Volta parts. If the Volta gets more popular in the bigger RVs, perhaps they will be able to get Volta training and information for their techs and be able to work on the Travato, also. Perhaps Volta would be better off to have their own list of approved repair stations. I think a Travato sitting in a Prevost service bay would be an interesting view to see.


Speaking of the owner's manual, what does it say about the cold weather care for the lithium batteries, particularly long term cold storage? I think we already know that there is no charging below freezing, but the storage temps were still up in the air, IIRC, with different literature saying different things.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

WGO/Volta is probably being extra cautious based on all the negative customer feedback Roadtrek experienced as they were working through problems on their solution.

Look forward to seeing this Volta solution as an offering on one of their larger RVs. Thanks for being an early adopter.

Booster-several months ago i had e-mail correspondence with volta about this subject. Travato has opted for battery to work using cabin heat. as the cabin warms up from the vans engine heater . it has to reach about 42 degrees. if you search the original volta thing from march or so you will see were i posted all 5 e-mails on this subject from volta-i put them in 1 post

[booster]

Did they say anything about the long term storage in cold areas when there would be no heat from the van running?

[wincrasher]

Getting this heat to the battery is also not a passive thing. I showed a picture in which you can see the blower fan that pushes the air from the cabin into the battery compartment.

Not only can you use the cab heater, but you can start the Truma on gas and get the cabin quite toasty in a short period. Once up to temp, the BMU releases the charging interlock and you are then good to go.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Did they say anything about the long term storage in cold areas when there would be no heat from the van running?

Did not seem to be an issue. Electric cars are sold in cold climates and do sit on dealers lots.

However to get the battery going in the
travato does provide cabin warmth.

You could use a mr. Buddy heater in conjunction with the engine running to get the house section up high enough.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Did not seem to be an issue. Electric cars are sold in cold climates and do sit on dealers lots.

However to get the battery going in the
travato does provide cabin warmth.

You could use a mr. Buddy heater in conjunction with the engine running to get the house section up high enough.

Actually, a while back there were some posts about Tesla and cold weather sitting time. IIRC it was something like not colder than -26* for longer than overnight. I have seen quite a few of the electrics and hybrids here in MN that are on Craigslist with new batteries in less the 7 years, some as low as 5 years and often at less than 100K miles, so the cold may contribute to issues around here.


On Volta's latest spec sheet for the battery pack, they don't mention the no charging below freezing, but say no longer than 2 months at -20C (-4*F) and unspecified time OK to -40*C (-40*F). It would be interesting to have them tell what the allowable time at -25F or -30F would be be.