Report on problems with my Travato GL

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

FWIW, I'm running an experiment today.

All items are off except the Volta system. Off course there are parasitic loads from items such as the CO detector and the Stereo. But everything that can be switched off is off.

The Volta system is on and should just idle.

We'll see if the solar maintains the battery or not. I charged up on shore power last nite, so we are sitting at 90%. I suspect, that since WGO used a 160 and a 40 watt panels (Zamp, crap I know), the output is nil. Turns out Volta provides the solar controller, but WGO provides the panels.

Another FWIW, I got the following in an email last nite from a Volta guy:

"The situation with your system could only be caused by the incorrect voltage being applied to that circuit. We are not 100% certain on how the wrong connection was made since the harnesses are 100% tested with automation and Winnebago is looking at their process and end of line quality checks to prevent this from happening again. This is why John was looking for damaged or reworked wiring."

Well my little experiment is showing that battery still at 90% at 5 PM. We’ll let it continue overnight and see how it is at 6 AM. that should tell me both if there is appreciable parasitic load and if my solar is doing a damn thing.

I do wonder if my solar is capped at 90% SOC like the alternator and shore power is. I may need to draw down to 70 or 80 and re-run this test.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well my little experiment is showing that battery still at 90% at 5 PM. We’ll let it continue overnight and see how it is at 6 AM. that should tell me both if there is appreciable parasitic load and if my solar is doing a damn thing.

I do wonder if my solar is capped at 90% SOC like the alternator and shore power is. I may need to draw down to 70 or 80 and re-run this test.

fascinating test Ron. your doing great.

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well my little experiment is showing that battery still at 90% at 5 PM. We’ll let it continue overnight and see how it is at 6 AM. that should tell me both if there is appreciable parasitic load and if my solar is doing a damn thing.

I do wonder if my solar is capped at 90% SOC like the alternator and shore power is. I may need to draw down to 70 or 80 and re-run this test.

I would guess that the "full" charge setting that stops charging would be in the BMS and be the same for all charging sources. The BMS would signal the charging sources to turn off at the 90%, and then turn back on when the batteries discharge to a certain setpoint.


The lack of ability to keep the batteries full, once they were full, by leaving charging on them, was one of the concerns expressed early on in the lithium discussions once it was settled on that that the batteries should not be float charged. The major concern was that you could be leaving an overnight on shore power with less than full batteries, or even stop for the night after a long drive and not have full batteries.


Most of the higher end systems have so much capacity now that it is less of an issue, but is still there. Setting the recharge hysteresis tighter an minimize the amount you would be short of full in the worst case.

[jaak1993]

Regarding the Prevost versus Class B and lithium systems. In one sense these two types of coaches are the same; a converter buys an empty shell and converts it to a motorhome and the difference is a matter of scale. The volume of a Prevost allows all sorts of flexibility in the configuration of the coach, the volume of a B allows it to be used, visit and stay in locations a Prevost cannot even consider. To achieve some of the Prevost's attributes in a small volume we need to put up with certain inconveniences. I would love to have a vehicle that drives and parks like a B and comes with all the space and conveniences of a Prevost when stopped, I haven't seen that yet, let alone at an affordable price.

[booster]

Originally Posted by jaak1993

I would love to have a vehicle that drives and parks like a B and comes with all the space and conveniences of a Prevost when stopped, I haven't seen that yet, let alone at an affordable price.

Five star hotel and a Lexus to get there?

[wincrasher]

Well, this morning I checked and I was down by 5% between 5 pm and 6:30 AM.

So all the draws in the coach were about 500 watts in that period. That doesn't strike me as excessive. I wish I could isolate further to know exactly what the Volta is consuming by itself, but I have no way of doing that. But that does set the floor on consumption for me.

It does tell me the solar is wholly inadequate if I want to leave the refrigerator and the ventilator running and have the rig unplugged. The question remains is the 200 watts inadequate, or just they way WGO configured it (one 160 watt panel + one 40 watt. I have two Renogy Eclipse panels - each 100 watt that will actually fit perfectly in the space of that big square 160 watt Zamp panel - I suspect that would work alot better.

[booster]

That would be 500 watts continuous? That is about 40 amps at 13v, so a lot of power. Did you mean 500 watt-hours?


500 watt hours for 10 hours would be 50 watts continuous which is closer to 4 amps and makes a lot more sense, but still would be about 100ah per day, which is similar to what davydd sees in his ARV when it is just sitting powered up.

[wincrasher]

yes, I meant watt-hours. It's hard to be precise, since there was low light after 5 pm as well as a bit this morning starting around 5:30 am. I figure 1 amp is being consumed by the CO detector and other parasitic loads in the coach - the rest is probably the Volta system.

When asked, Volta rep told me the BMS consumption is in milli-watts. But I don't think he included whatever the inverter is using while in idle mode (inverting off), nor the solar controller polling the panels or anything else. They did tell me that the inverter on, but no AC loads, will consume 2 amps. They zero that out on the inverter's display so you don't see it - only what your appliances are using.

I really wish I had some telemetry on my electrical system beyond this single gauge. Guess I've been spoiled by the Magnum Advanced Display and the Victron Bluesky Controller I had in my old coach.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

yes, I meant watt-hours. It's hard to be precise, since there was low light after 5 pm as well as a bit this morning starting around 5:30 am. I figure 1 amp is being consumed by the CO detector and other parasitic loads in the coach - the rest is probably the Volta system.

When asked, Volta rep told me the BMS consumption is in milli-watts. But I don't think he included whatever the inverter is using while in idle mode (inverting off), nor the solar controller polling the panels or anything else. They did tell me that the inverter on, but no AC loads, will consume 2 amps. They zero that out on the inverter's display so you don't see it - only what your appliances are using.

I really wish I had some telemetry on my electrical system beyond this single gauge. Guess I've been spoiled by the Magnum Advanced Display and the Victron Bluesky Controller I had in my old coach.

Ron -have you had info exchange with others who got an L model. are their experiences the same. Just wondering.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Ron -have you had info exchange with others who got an L model. are their experiences the same. Just wondering.

You mean with problems? Nope. I'm the only one I've heard of with the charging issues.

As far a power consumption, yes, it seems to be typical. I've been chatting with a few others than confirm theirs uses about the same on idle.

[wincrasher]

Well I did go ahead and up my solar today to 300 watts of matched panels. Used the Renogy Eclipse 100 watt, which has a pretty good efficiency rating and giving it a smaller footprint.

Two of these fit where the big Zamp 160 was - almost exactly the same dimensions. The third I squeezed along the side, but had to use a spacer to raise it up 1/2".

Nothing blew up, so I guess I got my wiring right. We'll see if this improves things.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by jaak1993

Regarding the Prevost versus Class B and lithium systems. In one sense these two types of coaches are the same; a converter buys an empty shell and converts it to a motorhome and the difference is a matter of scale. The volume of a Prevost allows all sorts of flexibility in the configuration of the coach, the volume of a B allows it to be used, visit and stay in locations a Prevost cannot even consider. To achieve some of the Prevost's attributes in a small volume we need to put up with certain inconveniences. I would love to have a vehicle that drives and parks like a B and comes with all the space and conveniences of a Prevost when stopped, I haven't seen that yet, let alone at an affordable price.

I get your point. However, for me it depends on whether or not an "inconvenience" introduces the significant possibility of turning into a royal PITA. Hey, the smaller tanks on a B results in more frequent dumps, but that is a reasonable inconvenience without concomitant draconian consequences. By comparison, stashing the Onan generator on a B under chassis seems like a minor inconvenience until it won't run resulting in the expense of dropping the whole kibosh to the deck which is a major PITA. So, IMO, stashing the brain controlling any alternator charging system under chassis is the current example of a dubious compromise considering that, after autopsy, what apparently looked like battery failure turns out to be a malfunction of its BMS.

[wincrasher]

Well, I figured out why my old solar was not giving me anything.

The solar controller's operating range is 15 to 60 volts. With panels wired in parallel, you are sending the power at around 17-18 volts. If any shade or clouds roll by, you are dropping below the 15 volt threshold and the controller stops charging. So there must be alot of the day with no charging going on. That's what the red lights on the controller are saying.

My new panels may not provide much improved performance, sadly. They are 17.7-21.5 volts. I installed three panels - the voltage would be too high if they were all wired in series. I really need to add another panel, have two pairs wired in series, and then parallel down to the controller - that would get us there around 40 volts - much better for this controller.

Back to the drawing board I guess.

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well, I figured out why my old solar was not giving me anything.

The solar controller's operating range is 15 to 60 volts. With panels wired in parallel, you are sending the power at around 17-18 volts. If any shade or clouds roll by, you are dropping below the 15 volt threshold and the controller stops charging. So there must be alot of the day with no charging going on. That's what the red lights on the controller are saying.

My new panels may not provide much improved performance, sadly. They are 17.7-21.5 volts. I installed three panels - the voltage would be too high if they were all wired in series. I really need to add another panel, have two pairs wired in series, and then parallel down to the controller - that would get us there around 40 volts - much better for this controller.

Back to the drawing board I guess.

That is the same issue we have with our Blue Sky controller. Three panels are nominally 51v at maximum power point of 17v, but the max on the panels is about 21v open circuit so over 60v, which is too high for the Blue Sky, so we had to go parallel.

[jbxr7]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well, this morning I checked and I was down by 5% between 5 pm and 6:30 AM.

So all the draws in the coach were about 500 watts in that period. That doesn't strike me as excessive. I wish I could isolate further to know exactly what the Volta is consuming by itself, but I have no way of doing that. But that does set the floor on consumption for me.

It does tell me the solar is wholly inadequate if I want to leave the refrigerator and the ventilator running and have the rig unplugged. The question remains is the 200 watts inadequate, or just they way WGO configured it (one 160 watt panel + one 40 watt. I have two Renogy Eclipse panels - each 100 watt that will actually fit perfectly in the space of that big square 160 watt Zamp panel - I suspect that would work alot better.

If the stock solar isn’t good enough to run the fridge, fans, and Volta DC to DC inverter, BMS, etc then I guess it’s good that I didn’t order my GL with a ladder since I probably won’t bother cleaning the solar panels too often.

[jbxr7]

Originally Posted by jbxr7

If the stock solar isn’t good enough to run the fridge, fans, and Volta DC to DC inverter, BMS, etc then I guess it’s good that I didn’t order my GL with a ladder since I probably won’t bother cleaning the solar panels too often.

Actually, I’m going to look into this before I pick my GL up in October. I think a fridge and fan should be able to run off of solar without the battery dying. If it can’t, and there’s an easy upgrade / solution, it should come stock as part of the Pure3 package.

[wincrasher]

i found a way to mount a 4th panel, so I’m going to wire two pairs in series as I mentioned above. this should solve my solar issues.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by jbxr7

Actually, I’m going to look into this before I pick my GL up in October. I think a fridge and fan should be able to run off of solar without the battery dying. If it can’t, and there’s an easy upgrade / solution, it should come stock as part of the Pure3 package.

when i had a roadtrek-even though agm- i figured 4 amps for fridge-4 amps for ceiling fan-the a couple for devices like the propane detector etc.

you are talking at least 10 amps per hour. Lithium installations use power for controlling the battery(s) themselves.

Most of us over estimate the amount of power gotten from our solar panels and underestimate the amount of power we are using even if not using anything special.

no matter who's lithium battery installation is being used the odds are you cannot just sit with solar panels exclusivley. you have to run the engine generator -at least once a day i would think

[wincrasher]

The issue really isn't the amount of solar. It's that it couldn't engage at a high enough voltage for the controller to maintain charging. Most panels are at a pretty low voltage - normally 17-20 volts - fine if you are stepping it down to charge at 13.4 volts. It's another matter when you are stepping it up to charge at 53 volts.

What I found was that with shadows and cloud cover, the voltage was dipping below 15 volts on the input much of the day, so the solar controller was really ineffectual - basically little to no charging of the battery was going on. Changing the wiring from parallel to series should get the voltage up high enough to solve the problem. A better option would be to source higher voltage panels - but there are not many choices above 24 volts.

FWIW, the statement "should run without the battery dying" is pretty ignorant. It will still run a week without being plugged in. I just want it to run indefinitely without having to run autostart or plugging in to shore power. That is certainly not a normal expectation for most users.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by jbxr7

Actually, I’m going to look into this before I pick my GL up in October. I think a fridge and fan should be able to run off of solar without the battery dying. If it can’t, and there’s an easy upgrade / solution, it should come stock as part of the Pure3 package.

Originally Posted by wincrasher

FWIW, the statement "should run without the battery dying" is pretty ignorant. It will still run a week without being plugged in. I just want it to run indefinitely without having to run autostart or plugging in to shore power. That is certainly not a normal expectation for most users.

Whoa there windcrasher, no need to be so harsh. jbxr7 didn't limit his time frame. His concern is the same as you, sustainable solar for basic power demands.