quick battery question

[banjerbob]

95 PleasureWay
Found my house batteries dry last week. Filled em up with dist h20, ran the engine for 30 min. Next day, very little charge left. Not sure of battery age (hard to see the label).
1) should I assume a bad battery(i.e. was this enough to fully charge it?)
if so,
2) recommendations for a new one. sealed or not? lead/acid or AGM? how many amp-hrs?
3) is a chain (Pep Boys, Tires Plus, etc) ok for this(the camping center is an hour away and charges $100+/hour).

AS always, thanks for your help,

Bob W

[Davydd]

If your cells are empty and you don't know how old your battery is then there is a very good chance it is shot and ready to be replaced especially if it is not holding a charge. There is nothing special about batteries that any place that sells batteries should be able to satisfy you be it Costco, Sears, Walmart, Batteries Plus, auto stores, etc. If you really don't know much about batteries or your system I recommend you simply replace your old battery with an identical size and type. That's the safe approach. A place like Sears or Costco could check what you have and simply swap it out for you if you don't want to do it yourself.

Now the serious part. If your cells were empty it is because of you (user error in not checking frequently enough) or your converter is boiling your battery under charge. You may not have an intelligent 3-stage charger to prevent over charging if you leave your RV plugged into shore power. That's what I mean by knowing your system. That's also what I meant by changing out with the same battery. Different types of batteries may need a different charging system. I say same of course assuming your battery came new with the new B and you know that much history. If used, who knows what the previous owner did. But then that goes full circle in knowing your system. That takes research.

I do know that as late as 2005 Pleasure-way was not installing intelligent charging in its Bs. So, if yours is still stock you may not have intelligent charging such as an inexpensive $34 Charge Wizard that plugs into a Progressive Dynamics PD9200 converter (what my 2005 Pleasure-way had.)

I think now in looking back at your message that if you have a 95 Pleasure-way that you are not the original owner or you would have been down this road numerous times by now.

PS. I can give you this advice because I have made all these errors and have been down the road with battery problems.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by banjerbob

95 PleasureWay
Found my house batteries dry last week. Filled em up with dist h20, ran the engine for 30 min. Next day, very little charge left. Not sure of battery age (hard to see the label).
1) should I assume a bad battery(i.e. was this enough to fully charge it?)
if so,
2) recommendations for a new one. sealed or not? lead/acid or AGM? how many amp-hrs?
3) is a chain (Pep Boys, Tires Plus, etc) ok for this(the camping center is an hour away and charges $100+/hour).

AS always, thanks for your help,

Bob W

Assuming they were wet cells, and the "wet" was gone, chances are they're toast. Like people, deep cycle batteries can only survive so long without water. Still, if there's a battery shop nearby, you could ask them to refill them for you with proper electrolyte, test them, and then try going for a drive in your PW for a few hours. 30 minutes probably isn't enough to fully recharge a flat pair, assuming they're still rechargable. My Roadtrek manual suggests at least 2 hours of engine alternator (driving?) charging to replenish my 2 X GR27 batteries after use. Yours were dry/dead, so add charging time accordingly. If they do recover, you'll have to mind them, and see if they lose electrolyte again quickly. It's possible the casings cracked in the extreme cold we've had, and the electrolyte leaked out. In which case they're toast.

The most common coach batteries are deep cycle GR24, GR27, and GR31, with 6V golf cart batteries becoming more popular because of the beating they can take, both physically and electrically. To figure out what group/size your current ones are in, you can measure the casings and see what you've got. There's a chart here for deep cycle casing dimensions that will tell you which group they are. Make sure you use the deep cycle specs. Not the starting battery ones.
http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/bc ... sizes.html
Once you figure out what you've got, if the old ones truly are toast, then I'd probably try to determine what converter/charger you've got inside your PW, and then see what might go best with it. Look in the manual, it should be in there.
Personally, I have an old style 30A converter/charger (circa 2002) that seems to work just fine, and not long after I bought my Roadtrek, I swapped the dying original lead/acid wet cells out, and replaced them with the equivalent size AGMs. Pricey but worth it, and they are virtually maintenance free. I think Sam's Club has deep cycle AGMs now by Duracell which are East Penn Mfg I believe, which is a relatively good name. They also make Deka, and some other brands, afaik. I picked up a GR24 deep cycle Duracell AGM last summer there, for just over $110 with a trade in, to use as my van's starting battery.
Just my opinions and experience.
Good luck.

[Caped Crusader]

You will need about 8 to 10 hours of alternator charging to get a depleted, healthy battery up to full charge. I suggest plugging into shore power and charge the battery for 24 hours, then wait a half hour (to remove surface charge) then test the battery. The battery may hold a charge, but the life span has probably been severely shortened.
If your converter/charger is a single stage, I suggest a new multi stage converter/charger, or this will probably happen again. If you go AGM you will need the multi stage charger, and set to the correct charging voltage.
If your battery is easy to check the water level, I would stay a with a lead acid battery.

[gdoug]

Agree with Caped Crusader. Charge your well drained battery for 24 hours on shore power. A 30 minute alternator charge doesn't amount to anything. Hope that works for you. Batteries aren't cheap.

[Mike]

The OP stated the batteries were "dry", which I took to mean no electrolyte, exposed plates, not just discharged, so they are likely toast based on some further research from another forum that specializes in all things battery/solar/off grid. For what it's worth, of course.

From another forum - a similar battery failure experience, and some opinions on the prognosis.
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthr ... -batteries

If these circumstances are near the same as those stated by the OP, I don't think refilling with distilled water and plugging in to shore, will help much at this point. I would probably start shopping for new batteries. AGMs are sealed and less prone to error, if you aren't the best at remembering to check electrolyte levels in wet cells, like me. That's why I switched. So far, so good.

There are also a few threads on here that discuss the pros and cons of 3 stage chargers. Most are pro, but lately there has been some controversy about their effectiveness at doing what they're supposed to be able to do.

[booster]

As Mike said, there has been some discussion of the effectiveness of the 3 step chargers, and I think a lot of it comes down to that most of the chargers are programmed way to the "safe" side of charging, for the charging stages. To make sure the don't cook out the water (or dry out and AGM) they seem to have severely limited higher voltage times in the charging cycle, but that also increases the risks of not getting the batteries fully charged. The way that they are set up will work best on single batteries or smaller banks than on on larger ones, in most cases. They most likely do that because cooking out the water kills a battery right now, where chronic undercharging kills it slowly, so it is a safer road to go, but neither are optimum. I think, in many cases, a single stage charger, monitored closely by a human, will do a better job than many smart chargers. But how many of us are willing to monitor every charge cycle that closely?

[banjerbob]

Thanks guys! We bought the camper (95 Pleasureway) last spring, so I'm still climbing the learning curve. So I'm gonna get an AGM, 100+ AH. I'm gonna have my mechanic do it (to save my 64 y.o. back), but I want make sure I have the right converter/charger. Problem is, I can't find it. Nothing in the manual (s) I got with the camper. The house battery is rt. rear and the red attached wires sorta disappear. I look on the web with no luck.
Any idea where they hide it??
Again, Thanks,
Bob W

[Mike]

In my Roadtrek the converter/charger is located near the fuse/breaker panel. I can access it from underneath the driver's side bed by lifting the cushions and then the plywood hatch. It's sort of an RV electrical bay under there.
You could send an email or call PleasureWay. The contact page has the info. They should know what they put in your van.
Or, if you post on RVNet forums, you could ask there on the van conversion forum.
Or, you could wait and see if Davydd sees your post. He was on vacation, but he might know what type of converter/charger you have.
Or, you could contact Best Converter and ask Randy if he knows what type you have. He's probably helped people replace them on your specific van before. His prices and support are reportedly the best. I have always got great info and suggestions from him.
Magnetek was a popular choice in the 90s for smaller RVs, so it may be one of those.

[Caped Crusader]

If it's the original converter, it's probably a Magnetek single stage converter, or could be a Parallax.
Both Chinese junk.
The one thing a multi stage converter/charger will do for you is allow extended shore power charging without boiling your AGM, or lead acid battery.
Here is a good tutorial for changing out the old converter with a new Progressive Dynamics 3 stage converter/charger.
http://home.comcast.net/~rabarber/magnetek.htm

PD also sells refurbished converters from their Outlet store. I saved quite a bit that way. If they don't have what you need, call them, as they are always adding new refurbished stuff.
http://www.progressivedyn.com/hotdeals.html

Amazon also carries them, and remember PD's are made in America!

[booster]

Have you ever seen a charge profile for the PD upgrade to older units? I have been trying to find out exactly what they do, as I think it is a bit different than what many of the multisteps do (not necessarily a bad thing). I have seen a different, new charge profile, that had the charge wizard, and it said that they always run a 14.4 volt "boost" charge for 4 hours whenever the unit is plugged in. It didn't say if it was 4 hours from the time it finally got to 14.4 volts (as it will take a while with big or run down batteries) or 4 hours total before it goes to float. The fact that it goes into boost every time is a good thing, as lots of the chargers tend to go right to float under many conditions, but the 4 hours may not suit all situations very well. The chargers all seem to have some compromises in them, and they sure seem to not pick similar compromises. It would be nice if they would publish their actual profiles, so folks know what to expect, and so they could chose on more suited to their battery bank size and configuration.

[Caped Crusader]

I thought you could put it into Boost mode using the Charge Wizard, but my memory is a couple years old on this.
Looks like you can only use the CW to test the operation. It would be nice if someday there would be a computer port that you could use to program the Converter with ones specific configuration. Type of batteries, size, etc. Until then there will always be trade offs. For me, I would never spend a lot of money on batteries without changing out the old single stage converter.

"The Charge Wizard PD9105 (for Lead-Acid and AGM type Batteries) is also available as a pendant. This allows easy field upgrade to your PD9100 series deck mount converter/charger by simply plugging the pendant into the built-in TCMS® connector located just above the fuses on the output panel. The Charge Wizard is a microprocessor-controlled unit that constantly monitors the RV battery voltage and then selects one of three charging voltages and one of four operating modes to properly re-charge and maintain the RV battery. The addition of the Charge Wizard makes your 9100 Series converter an intelligent battery charger that will safely and rapidly recharge a discharged battery by selecting the BOOST Mode (14.4V) of operation.
Once the battery reaches 90% of full charge, the Charge Wizard automatically selects the NORMAL Mode (13.6V) to safely complete the charge. The STORAGE Mode (13.2V) is automatically selected after 30 hours of non-use of the 12-volt RV electrical systems. The lower charging voltage in the STORAGE Mode of operation reduces battery gassing and water usage, while maintaining the charge. Every 21 hours when the system is operating in the STORAGE Mode, the Charge Wizard will automatically switch to the EQUALIZATION Mode of operation. The EQUALIZATION Mode increases the charging voltage up to 14.4 volts for 15 minutes. This increased voltage mixes up the battery electrolyte and prevents battery stratification and the resulting problems of battery sulfation."

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Caped Crusader

If it's the original converter, it's probably a Magnetek single stage converter, or could be a Parallax.
Both Chinese junk.

20/20 hindsight. At the time, they were state of the art. Just about everyone used them.

Originally Posted by Caped Crusader

The one thing a multi stage converter/charger will do for you is allow extended shore power charging without boiling your AGM, or lead acid battery.

That may be true, but as mentioned, there may be other ways they can ruin your expensive battery investment. They may not be fool proof.

Originally Posted by Caped Crusader

Here is a good tutorial for changing out the old converter with a new Progressive Dynamics 3 stage converter/charger.
http://home.comcast.net/~rabarber/magnetek.htm

PD also sells refurbished converters from their Outlet store. I saved quite a bit that way. If they don't have what you need, call them, as they are always adding new refurbished stuff.
http://www.progressivedyn.com/hotdeals.html

Amazon also carries them, and remember PD's are made in America!

A long time ago that might have mattered.

I think what has become apparent from real world tests is that most current 3 stage chargers do allow some tailoring of their charging profiles to match the general type of battery they will support. The problem appears to be that they don't always match the manufacturer's specs for charging that specific battery. Their charge phase current thresholds are more generic in nature. Not all batteries are created equal, and the 3 stage chargers seem to err on the side of less than full charge current to avoid the damage of over charging. You can't set them to do exactly what your batteries need for optimal charge care, as determined by the battery manufacturer. They're no more "set it, and forget it" than the single stage chargers were.

[Caped Crusader]

I have seen too many batteries ruined by single stage chargers boiling out the water. I will not ever be convinced that a single stage charger is any where near as good as a multi stage charger, even though they have some limitations. If 30 year old technology works for you that's great, but for the average RVer a modern multi stage charger is a much better choice.

[eric1514]

Originally Posted by Caped Crusader

I thought you could put it into Boost mode using the Charge Wizard, but my memory is a couple years old on this.
...

This is true. With the CW you can select any of the three modes and the flashing LED on the CW will let you know what you've selected.

[booster]

Originally Posted by eric1514

This is true. With the CW you can select any of the three modes and the flashing LED on the CW will let you know what you've selected.

When you put it into boost mode, does it run a fixed amount of time, or does it vary based on other conditions?

[eric1514]

My understanding is that it will run for 4 hours and then revert to the mode it was at previously.

[booster]

Originally Posted by eric1514

My understanding is that it will run for 4 hours and then revert to the mode it was at previously.

Thanks for the information, that confirms what I had heard before. Like the others, they have chosen their parameters based on what they think is the best compromise for the varied applications. At least the say in some of the literature that the 2-3 hour charge time is for a 125AH battery, and with a 4 hour max, you probably couldn't go a whole lot bigger without not getting full. They do have two big pluses. The fact that they always go into absorption when plugged in, and that you can force them into absorption if you want. From what was said, it sounds like you can force it out of absorption also, which would be a plus, but then we are getting away from the "automatic" part of the charger.

[Davydd]

I'm not an expert on this stuff and don't get into technical details. All I can say is what I experience and that is with a Progressive Dynamics 3-stage charging converter I leave my B plugged into shore power from October through March and have experienced no battery problems over three winters now with my current B (lead/acid wet cells). With my previous Pleasure-way I had problems the first year until I figured it out and added that simple plug in PD Charge Wizard module that cost $34 to make their PD 9200 model intelligent charging. With that experience I would not have anything but Progressive dynamics now. I don't need to know how they do it, just that I know they do it.

As to location it might be in an inaccessible dead cabinet space. Listen for a fan hum and maybe look for a vent to the space. My Pleasure-way converter was in the wheel well ottoman and I had to unscrew a top plywood panel for the cushion to get at it. My GWVan converter is in a top cabinet and I would have to pull the fuse panel out to get to it.

[booster]

For overwintering and storing, the Progressive Dynamics, and some others, have the feature that makes them superior when compared to ones like the Tripplite RV750 that so many. They raise the voltage to absorption level periodically to stir the electrolyte and desulphate, eliminating stratification of the acid and the generation of non-disolveable sulphate crystals. For those of us that store the B plugged in over long periods, it is a very important feature IMO.

As I mentioned earlier, I think there will upgrades and new chargers coming out in the relatively near future that will incorporate many of the features and settings that are now spread around on various models. When I talked to many of the manufacturers, they all were aware of the strengths and weaknesses of their, and others, chargers, but they all have the problems of mass marketing to varied markets, and of course, the big one which is cost.