My Lithium Upgrade

[booster]

One more question. Where does the #6 wire to the power center come from? I don't see any connection for it to the battery in your system pic.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

One more question. Where does the #6 wire to the power center come from? I don't see any connection for it to the battery in your system pic.

Sorry for the delay between replies. I've been out doing chores in preparation for our trip.

The power connection is not obvious in the last picture I sent so I added captions to show the 3" jumper wire (probably 6 ga.).

Of course everything is different now and I'll try and take some "finished" pictures before we leave. Suffice it to say the 3" jumper in the picture is still in place on the buss bar. But instead of the other end getting it's power from the coach battery cable connected to the top of the old Isolator, it is now attached to a 60A ANL fuse connection that gets power from the 4 ga. positive cable I ran to the lithium batteries.

Fun fact: The ends of the old positive and negative cables in the outer battery box (now disconnected) are heat shrinked to prevent shorting and are secured to the wall of the old battery compartment which I've re-purposed to hold my leveling blocks.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Sorry for the delay between replies. I've been out doing chores in preparation for our trip.

The power connection is not obvious in the last picture I sent so I added captions to show the 3" jumper wire (probably 6 ga.).

Of course everything is different now and I'll try and take some "finished" pictures before we leave. Suffice it to say the 3" jumper in the picture is still in place on the buss bar. But instead of the other end getting it's power from the coach battery cable connected to the top of the old Isolator, the it is now attached to the 60A ANL fuse connection that gets power from the 4 ga. positive cable I ran to the lithium batteries.

Fun fact: The ends of the old positive and negative cables in the outer battery box (now disconnected) are heat shrinked to prevent shorting and are secured to the wall of the old battery compartment which I've re-purposed to hold my leveling blocks.

That sounds like it is OK, how about the negative side?

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

That sounds like it is OK, how about the negative side?

That's a big "don't know" from me.

Here's what is no longer connected:

- Positive and negative cables in outside battery box (as mentioned in my previous post).

- Positive and negative cables from the outside battery box to the old Tripplite Inverter.

Here's what was moved:

- Chassis battery cable from top right of Isolator to the the positive input on the new DC-DC charger.

- Moved Monitor power wire and Generator hour-meter wires from upper right of Isolator to the 12v buss bar above.

- Coach battery cable from top left of the Isolator to the new 4ga. positive to the lithium batteries. Note: I found without it connected it anything, the Generator started had no power, so I connected it to the 60A ANL fuse block that also powers the 12v buss bar thru the 3" jumper in my last picture. Guess it splits somewhere underneath to provide the generator starter with power.

- Ignition wire from the left side of the old Isolator to the DC-DC charger.

- Ground wire from bottom left of the Isolator to the SOC shunt on the negative cables back to the lithium batteries.

Here's what was added:

- Since the engine battery is grounded to the chassis, there was no negative cable to connect to the DC-DC charger as recommended by Renogy. When I called them and asked if I could just add a negative cable to the DC-DC charger and ground it to the chassis they said that should work. So I used a bolt as my cable ground that attaches a heavy steel bracket that bolts through the metal wheel well near the location of the new DC-DC charger.

Summary:

Everything "appears" to function normally as of now except for the "Open Ground" condition on the Inverter powered outlets.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

That's a big "don't know" from me.

Here's what is no longer connected:

- Positive and negative cables in outside battery box (as mentioned in my previous post).

- Positive and negative cables from the outside battery box to the old Tripplite Inverter.

Here's what was moved:

- Chassis battery cable from top right of Isolator to the the positive input on the new DC-DC charger.

- Moved Monitor power wire and Generator hour-meter wires from upper right of Isolator to the 12v buss bar above.

- Coach battery cable from top left of the Isolator to the new 4ga. positive to the lithium batteries. Note: I found without it connected it anything, the Generator started had no power, so I connected it to the 60A ANL fuse block that also powers the 12v buss bar thru the 3" jumper in my last picture. Guess it splits somewhere underneath to provide the generator starter with power.

- Ignition wire from the left side of the old Isolator to the DC-DC charger.

- Ground wire from bottom left of the Isolator to the SOC shunt on the negative cables back to the lithium batteries.

Here's what was added:

- Since the engine battery is grounded to the chassis, there was no negative cable to connect to the DC-DC charger as recommended by Renogy. When I called them and asked if I could just add a negative cable to the DC-DC charger and ground it to the chassis they said that should work. So I used a bolt as my cable ground that attaches a heavy steel bracket that bolts through the metal wheel well near the location of the new DC-DC charger.

Summary:

Everything "appears" to function normally as of now except for the "Open Ground" condition on the Inverter powered outlets.

I think the thing to remember is that if you have an undersized wire, everything can appear normal until that wire melts or causes a fire.


At least from the pix so far, it appears that you have a wiring imbalance in the coach 12v, besides the 110v ground issue which is actually less serious IMO.


Think of it this way, you have 4" water pipe from the batteries to the coach, but a 1/2" pipe back. Both ways will be carrying the same current so need to have the same capacity. If the ground wire you added to the 12 to 12 charger is on the same connection as the cable to the shunt (not shown in the pix), you are ok, but that won't work as ground for the input side, as the cable would be on the output, unless the two ends have the ground connected, which we don't know at this point. Sometimes they connect them internally, sometimes not so in and out are totally independent for charging.


Bottom line is if you have that cable to chassis on the output side of the 12 to 12 charger on the same lug that goes to the shunt, you should be OK. If not, it may be a problem. If you have a clamp on ammeter check the current in the small wire from the separator with a heavy DC load in the coach of 20+ amps and see what you get. It should not be carrying more than a couple of amps if you have adequate cable size connected elsewhere.

[rowiebowie]

I agree and stated I plan to run a bigger 12v ground wire when we get back from our trip. Along those lines, I did some testing yesterday of 12v loads.

Not counting several temporary but high-draw loads like the macerator pump & macerator toilet, which I will test later, running most everything in the coach simultaneously would equal about 22 amps. But in the real world the draw will be <10 amps.

For 10 amps I can run my 3.1cf Novacool Fridge, half the lights in the coach, 12v TV/DVD combo, Maxxfan on Medium speed, Propane solenoid and heater fan. Most likely we'd never run the Maxxfan and furnace at the same time (at least we haven't yet).

[rowiebowie]

Open Ground problem solved! Turned out to be an internal bonding feature as in the Magnum page booster sent in a previous post.

In my case it was a Renogy program setting "01" titled "Output Source Priority" that I had set to "Battery Priority". Once I changed the setting to "Utility Priority" I hear a click inside the Inverter that I'd never heard before. I immediately looked over to my circuit tester (plugged into the 110v inverter outlet) and the "Open Ground" condition was gone. Replaced by the "ok" two right-hand orange lights indicating a good circuit. Whew!

I guess the inverter is pretty complicated with a lot of programmable features though some default to factory setting once you select your type of battery (in my case Lithiums).

Now we can hit the road this weekend for the Smoky Mountains!

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Open Ground problem solved! Turned out to be an internal bonding feature as in the Magnum page booster sent in a previous post.

In my case it was a Renogy program setting "01" titled "Output Source Priority" that I had set to "Battery Priority". Once I changed the setting to "Utility Priority" I hear a click inside the Inverter that I'd never heard before. I immediately looked over to my circuit tester (plugged into the 110v inverter outlet) and the "Open Ground" condition was gone. Replaced by the "ok" two right-hand orange lights indicating a good circuit. Whew!

I guess the inverter is pretty complicated with a lot of programmable features though some default to factory setting once you select your type of battery (in my case Lithiums).

Now we can hit the road this weekend for the Smoky Mountains!

I don't recall all those settings in the manual, of course I wasn't looking for them either. How did you know to change that setting?

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't recall all those settings in the manual, of course I wasn't looking for them either. How did you know to change that setting?

Page 15 in the manual under "LCD Settings", program item "01"

I decided to go through the settings again, item by item. By reading the description, I had no reason to think it would solve my problem, but the default is "Utility Priority" and mine was set to "Battery Priority". Don't know how it got changed, but I probably did it by accident in initial setup.

The buttons on the top of the unit sit sideways the way I have it mounted and the 3 buttons (program mode, scroll up, and a scroll down) are a little clunky. But I have no one to blame but myself (and Renogy for their skimpy information manual).

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Page 15 in the manual under "LCD Settings", program item "01"

I decided to go through the settings again, item by item. By reading the description, I had no reason to think it would solve my problem, but the default is "Utility Priority" and mine was set to "Battery Priority". Don't know how it got changed, but I probably did it by accident in initial setup.

The buttons on the top of the unit sit sideways the way I have it mounted and the 3 buttons (program mode, scroll up, and a scroll down) are a little clunky. But I have no one to blame but myself (and Renogy for their skimpy information manual).

At least you got it fixed before you left, so usable. Good job.



Have a good trip.

[booster]

Just a sidenote to this discussion, concerning the whole bonding thing and the bad, and getting worse, instructions and tech information when calling the manufacturers.


First the bonding. Looking at the manual page rowiebowie gave, it is indeed there, and it is also a very common setting available on inverters, especially the larger ones. What is surprising is that the bonding is somehow tied to that setting, as the "rules" and codes are very plain on this part of it.


Basically, it gets really simple. If you are on batteries only, the bonding should only be at the inverter. If you are on shore power only, the bonding should be only at the service entrance (post). What I have never seen explicitly stated is how they want the bonding if BOTH shore power and inverter power are present, but I assume that the bonding would be wanted at the service entrance only as it is, by far, the safest option.


Rowiebowie's unit appears to not bond the neutral and and ground when in battery first priority, which should only happen when shore power is also present. Rowiebowie says he saw unbonded when on batteries but not on shore power which should never happen.


I think this is a problem with the Renogy inverter that probably should be addressed by them.


It also brings up the question for the rest of us of how to know if all is good on our systems. If it is like rowiebowie's setup, the issue is obvious in the open ground he saw. But, if the issue is opposite, as in the inverter stays bonded even when on shore power, you would always see a good ground, but there might be two of them if the inverter didn't unbond if it was on battery and shore power. I think the only way to tell would be to disconnect the shore power ground when on both and see you still see a good ground. If you do, it is likely both are connected when both power sources are on, which is not to the "rules" against two bonding places.


Of interest to me was the difference in the manuals for my MS2000 Magnum from a few years ago, and the current one. On mine it had a section about how to cut a jumper to prevent bonding when on inverter, but the new manual says to never override the bonding on inverter.


On the instructions and support, this thread probably is a good example of why both could/should be better. Rowiebowies's issue probably should have been easily found by looking at the manual or with a quick call to Renogy.

[rowiebowie]

I used Renogy products because they were smaller than Battleborn and even the Group 27 battery size. They were all that would fit inside next to the inverter. Because of this, I was able to keep everything under the rear jumpseat. And yes, I had just enough air space to meet minimum requirements. But talk about a tight fit.

Today, Renogy sent me an e-mail announcing their "NEW" 100ah lithium battery. The size increased to a true group 27 and would not have worked for my application. However, I might have missed out on some nice new features. Can't complain I got a great deal this past summer for $719.99 ea.

Here is an "after" picture as promised, but I'm sure I'll get criticism for sloppy routing of some of the smaller wires. I will go back and clean them up later.

Plus, the State of Charge shunt through which the negative cables connect so it can monitor input/output has no case or mounting bracket. It sits directly on top of the inverter bare to the world. Even though the 4 ga. cables hold it pretty secure, I padded it to prevent rattling and made a make-shift encasement from a clear cable package to prevent anything from coming in contact with the wires. Will need to come up with something permanent after our trip, but I'm surprised it didn't come with it's own clear case like ANL fuse blocks do.

[rowiebowie]

P.s. - The jump seat area I've installed it in is actually becomes the foot of the bed when the rear lounge is reclined. The aluminum frame seen around the top of the area is on slides for deploying the center area to make a queen bed when the seat cushion is back in place and is filled in with the back rests.

[Bud]

Thank you for sharing rowiebowie. I've had a good time following along too.

Bud

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Bud

Thank you for sharing rowiebowie. I've had a good time following along too.

Bud

Along the way my head hurt a lot. Then booster kept asking pertinent questions that I hadn't even considered and he made it hurt even more.

I have to say Renogy tech support is probably not quite up to snuff', but I have to cut them some slack because when I did call with problems (some of my own making) I certainly was not at "booster level" in explaining things.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Along the way my head hurt a lot. Then booster kept asking pertinent questions that I hadn't even considered and he made it hurt even more.

I have to say Renogy tech support is probably not quite up to snuff', but I have to cut them some slack because when I did call with problems (some of my own making) I certainly was not at "booster level" in explaining things.

Yeah, I am pretty good at making people pound their head against the wall, or mine sometimes, I fear.



I think my major beef in all of this is the manufacturers who dumb all this down so far it is a disservice to their customers.


There are way, way, too many out there that say "direct replacement for everything", and just plug in and go without checking or testing anything. If you call with a question, they won't answer the question with more than "don't worry about it".


This is not new, as it has also been true of most of the lead acid battery system "improvements", that universally seem to say that a multistage charge always charges batteries perfectly, when they know very well that is not true. Better than a fixed output charger, sure very likely. Perfect, almost zero chance unless it is a very sophisticated charging system.


As the technology gets more advanced it it getting more and more to the point were non technical users are being left at the mercy of the vendor claims, and I find that a bit unfortunate because it appears that many are abusing that situation.

[Bud]

"As the technology gets more advanced it it getting more and more to the point were non technical users are being left at the mercy of the vendor claims, and I find that a bit unfortunate because it appears that many are abusing that situation."

roadtrek Squared

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Bud

"As the technology gets more advanced it it getting more and more to the point were non technical users are being left at the mercy of the vendor claims, and I find that a bit unfortunate because it appears that many are abusing that situation."

roadtrek Squared

Agree. A year ago I thought I could just swap my lead-acids for Battleborn's and off I'd go (just 2 grand poorer).

At least Renogy was upfront in my initial calls about needing to isolate my engine battery from their lithiums with a separate DC-DC charger. When you think about it, makes perfect sense because their chemistry is just plain different. But there is still a misconceptions that you can just plug & play "smart" lithiums and hit the road. They might work sorta, or for a while, until you suddenly discovery your batteries are dead. A State of Charge Monitor is needed as well as solar, inverter, and charger that all have lithium modes.

Lucky for me, the advice on this forum last year led me to install a bluetooth Victron 75/15 solar controller that is compatible with both lithium batteries and my planned future upgrade from . . . get ready . . . from my factory 20W solar panel to 200 watts.

Have the Renogy flexible solar panels, but my lithium upgrade came first. The heat almost killed me, so the panels will wait for a couple of months when we get back from our trip. Leaving tomorrow morning for the Smoky Mountains and points East & South.

[eric1514]

Have a safe trip!

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by eric1514

Have a safe trip!

Thanks, Eric. We're walking out to van now. I won't be posting much for the next 3 weeks or so. Hope everyone stays safe as well.