My Lithium Upgrade

[booster]

Originally Posted by PJ2016

The note I'm looking at is directly under the figure showing the ac connections under: Installation, AC Wiring.
PJ

If that is correct, there should be essentially no way to have an open ground unless the tester is doing it in an odd way. It would then have to mean a ground wire problem after he inverter, I think. If it is a wiring problem, he should see open ground on both shore power passthrough and when on inverter with no shore power connection.

I will go out our van and see how a generic tester sees our outlets, which are all on the inverter and autoswitch the bonding with the Magnum MS2000.


On edit: I just checked our van on shore power and on inverter and the outlets checked normal, two lights on one off with a generic tester.

[MarCorpsMustang]

Here was my solution to a similar challenge. It's working great!
http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...rade-9647.html

[rowiebowie]

Update on my "Open Ground" problem on inverter only:

Cooler weather finally arrived as the Weatherman predicted so I've been attending to the remaining issues with my lithium battery & inverter/charger upgrade.

I rechecked all inverter connections then I checked output with inverter on when plugged in and not plugged in. A/C powered outlets still check out fine. Inverter powered outlets still show bad ground wire.

Went back with the multi-meter and when I checked the ac "IN" hot to neutral and hot to ground, I get a reading of 123 volts. But when I check the inverter "OUT" hot to ground, I get a reading of 35 volts, whereas hot to neutral shows 120 volts. I get the same 35 volts when touching directly on the ground wire itself.

Does this mean I have a bad connection in the ground wire behind my power center?

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Update on my "Open Ground" problem on inverter only:

Cooler weather finally arrived as the Weatherman predicted so I've been attending to the remaining issues with my lithium battery & inverter/charger upgrade.

I rechecked all inverter connections then I checked output with inverter on when plugged in and not plugged in. A/C powered outlets still check out fine. Inverter powered outlets still show bad ground wire.

Went back with the multi-meter and when I checked the ac "IN" hot to neutral and hot to ground, I get a reading of 123 volts. But when I check the inverter "OUT" hot to ground, I get a reading of 35 volts, whereas hot to neutral shows 120 volts. I get the same 35 volts when touching directly on the ground wire itself.

Does this mean I have a bad connection in the ground wire behind my power center?

It may mean a high resistance in the ground wire in that circuit as it is doing it in both shore and inverter mode, it appears. It could be anywhere after the transfer switch in the inverter, I think. One question would be why the 35v on the ground as it has to come from somewhere. It could just be a capacitance or other surface charge that wouldn't be able to deliver any real amperage though, if the ground is truly open. You might want to carefully try to discharge that voltage to the neutral, but be very careful.



Probably the best thing to do is check continuity from an outlet to the inverter ground line. Just string a wire from one to near the other connected to your meter, with nothing plugged into the outlets or the inverter or shore power on. It would be best to disconnect the ground wire at the inverter when you do the check to prevent any alternate paths. You should get very low ohms on the ground line

[Dogman]

Enjoyed the read and a costly switch, doing it over would you just go with what is installed or Buy new with complete Li3 installed.

Which model did you say you started with? As I am wondering by doing all of this would have been a problem with a warranty or was that time over?

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

It may mean a high resistance in the ground wire in that circuit as it is doing it in both shore and inverter mode, it appears. It could be anywhere after the transfer switch in the inverter, I think. One question would be why the 35v on the ground as it has to come from somewhere. It could just be a capacitance or other surface charge that wouldn't be able to deliver any real amperage though, if the ground is truly open. You might want to carefully try to discharge that voltage to the neutral, but be very careful.


Probably the best thing to do is check continuity from an outlet to the inverter ground line. Just string a wire from one to near the other connected to your meter, with nothing plugged into the outlets or the inverter or shore power on. It would be best to disconnect the ground wire at the inverter when you do the check to prevent any alternate paths. You should get very low ohms on the ground line

Thanks Booster. Will do.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Dogman

Enjoyed the read and a costly switch, doing it over would you just go with what is installed or Buy new with complete Li3 installed.

Which model did you say you started with? As I am wondering by doing all of this would have been a problem with a warranty or was that time over?

See my profile photo of my rv. I purchased a rare model, no warranty remaining. It was a used '2012 Airstream Avenue Suite on the Chevy Express 3500 chassis with 25,000 miles two years ago for $57,500. Too much, but nearly $10K less than others like mine or similar Roadtreks I'd seen and after over a year of looking, so we took the plunge.

I've completely updated the electrical and battery system to 2 x 100ah lithium batteries and inverter/chargers for about $2,600 by watching sales at Renogy.com and doing it myself. We're going on a trip next week.

If later we decide to go full bore on the lithium battery bank, it's just a matter of how much more we want to spend. All systems are already in place, so it's just a matter of adding more 100ah batteries at approx. $750 each. I would only do that to be able to run the roof air conditioner without firing up the finicky generator. It would require a minimum of 800ah (6 more lithium batteries). If money were no object, I'd pull the generator and offset the weight savings with another 10 x 100ah lithium batteries for a total of twelve. A scale-tipping 15,360 watts of power (if you assume full potential rating by Renogy).

Not saying I'd ever do that, but if I did, I'd still be into my van for about $71K. A small fortune, but nearly half of what one of the new lithium models would cost. I'm merely stating this as an exercise to explain how much you can save by buying used and updating your rv as opposed to buying new.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

It may mean a high resistance in the ground wire in that circuit as it is doing it in both shore and inverter mode, it appears. It could be anywhere after the transfer switch in the inverter, I think. One question would be why the 35v on the ground as it has to come from somewhere. It could just be a capacitance or other surface charge that wouldn't be able to deliver any real amperage though, if the ground is truly open. You might want to carefully try to discharge that voltage to the neutral, but be very careful.

Probably the best thing to do is check continuity from an outlet to the inverter ground line. Just string a wire from one to near the other connected to your meter, with nothing plugged into the outlets or the inverter or shore power on. It would be best to disconnect the ground wire at the inverter when you do the check to prevent any alternate paths. You should get very low ohms on the ground line

Well today I pulled the cover off the Power Center and checked all connections. Most were already tight and only a few needed an 1/8th of a turn at most. Nothing looked out of place, especially the ground wire that goes to the inverter. "Open Ground" still indicated on inverter all outlets.

On the 12v side I noticed something that seemed odd. The positive cable from the 50A DC buss bar to the Power Center fuse block is 6 ga. However, the negative wire (formerly to the battery Isolator, but now back to my SOC shunt) is 16 ga. at best. To the best of my knowledge this is how it came stock from the factory. Seems like a huge mis-match. When I get back from my trip, I plan on running a new decent-sized ground.

[GallenH]

Watching your progress with interest. Similar is probably in my future. I have a Renogy suitcase. Good company; excellent tech help and service. Decided to mount my controller inside and needed a surface mount for it. Got an email back from them that they had sent one off, no charge. My Lifeline AGM 100AH was $350, so your Renogy's on sale are priced pretty well. I wouldn't hesitate to buy their products given my experience.

So, continue your updates and know that they are very welcome.

best.glenn

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by GallenH

Watching your progress with interest. Similar is probably in my future. I have a Renogy suitcase. Good company; excellent tech help and service. Decided to mount my controller inside and needed a surface mount for it. Got an email back from them that they had sent one off, no charge. My Lifeline AGM 100AH was $350, so your Renogy's on sale are priced pretty well. I wouldn't hesitate to buy their products given my experience.

So, continue your updates and know that they are very welcome.

best.glenn

Thanks. My project would not have been possible with my initial level of expertise without the help of Booster, hbn7hj, and others on this and airforums. Renogy techs have been helpful if you call and wait to speak to them by phone. Not so good at calling back or acknowledging emails, however.

Along the way to doing the install, I've learned a lot about my van systems, wire gauges, and can now competently crimp smaller gauge wires and decently heat shrink connections. I leave the big lug crimping (anything over 10ga.) to the experts and order my cables pre-made to my required lengths and gauge from acdvwireandsupply on ebay.

I want to emphasis to anyone taking on this task that one thing affects another, so there were a few unexpected events like things not working initially. But I'm glad to report I didn't damage anything or blow a single fuse.

Of course it's the old story, if I immediately did it again, it would take a fraction of the time and I still have my "Open Ground" on inverter-powered outlets. Was it that way before the new inverter/charger? Maybe not, but I can't say for sure if I ever checked the old inverter output since we never used it on trips. Everything in on 12 volts. But I want to get it right and so sadly we won't able to use the microwave this trip which is one reason for the lithium upgrade. I hope to find a shop during our trip that can trouble-shoot it for me as I have no confidence in local shops.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Well today I pulled the cover off the Power Center and checked all connections. Most were already tight and only a few needed an 1/8th of a turn at most. Nothing looked out of place, especially the ground wire that goes to the inverter. "Open Ground" still indicated on inverter all outlets.

On the 12v side I noticed something that seemed odd. The positive cable from the 50A DC buss bar to the Power Center fuse block is 6 ga. However, the negative wire (formerly to the battery Isolator, but now back to my SOC shunt) is 16 ga. at best. To the best of my knowledge this is how it came stock from the factory. Seems like a huge mis-match. When I get back from my trip, I plan on running a new decent-sized ground.

Can you make a sketch of where the wires are, I am having trouble visualizing it. I think you are saying that there is 6ga from the battery to he buss bar and then to power center (fuse panel). On the negative side I don't understand what the ground wire to an isolator from the power center would be for or why now it was run to the shunt unless just for convenience. The line from the isolator to power center would normally be a positive wire. The "normal" if there is such a thing way for the grounds to be run would be to use the van chassis as the conductor, so at al the use points the negative connects to the chassis, and then the chassis is wired to the shunt with a single cable. This would be for all but very high use items like an inverter that would often have a separate cable to the shunt.



A typical shunt would have one cable to the battery and on the other side one from the van chassis and one from the inverter negative. There would be two small wires on the small screw terminals that would go to the meter for the shunt, usually a twisted pair.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

I don't see it my manual either. I did a word search of the .pdf file and no mention of "ground" was found......................

I don't see a ground lug in any of the photos either. The older version Renogy 3000W inverter/charger had a ground lug and that would be grounded to the RV frame.

I suggest phoning Renogy and asking how to ground the inverter for mobile or marine use.

Did the previous Tripp-Lite have a ground terminal?

Also, It's a large enough inverter to be "whole house" use in the RV. Typically it would be installed that way to more fully utilize any built in protections such as low or high voltage or frequency as examples.

[booster]

Here is a cut and paste from the current Magnum MS2000 series manual that shows how they describe the bonding and how the internal switching is setup.


The Magnum does have ground lug to tie the chassis to the unit, but I think that is for safety more than the bonding as I think the AC grounds are always pulled back to the source, which in this case is the Magnum itself. There is a discreet AC ground lug in the AC connection area that is just tied to the Magnum chassis, so that would be the bonding path when on inverter back to the internal bonding switch.



We have heard/seen several inverter/chargers that had confusing bonding going on, so Renogy may also do something different.


Of interest is that the bonding on the neutral side is wired as normally closed contacts, so I would expect that with no shore power and the inverter section off neutral and ground at the outlets would show being bonded with an ohmmeter.


Edit; I looked at the manual for Renogy again to see how they do the AC wiring. They have separate connections for the ground for shore power input and AC output to the outlets. It would be interesting to see of the two grounds are connected to each other internally, which they would have to be to match how Magnum shows it, as Magnum uses a single lug for all the AC grounds which connects the shore and inverter outlet ground together or if ground is also somehow switched. The output and input grounds have to be connected as rowiebowie tests good ground shore power when on shore power, but he loses it when on inverter.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

Can you make a sketch of where the wires are, I am having trouble visualizing it. I think you are saying that there is 6ga from the battery to he buss bar and then to power center (fuse panel). On the negative side I don't understand what the ground wire to an isolator from the power center would be for or why now it was run to the shunt unless just for convenience. The line from the isolator to power center would normally be a positive wire. The "normal" if there is such a thing way for the grounds to be run would be to use the van chassis as the conductor, so at al the use points the negative connects to the chassis, and then the chassis is wired to the shunt with a single cable. This would be for all but very high use items like an inverter that would often have a separate cable to the shunt.

A typical shunt would have one cable to the battery and on the other side one from the van chassis and one from the inverter negative. There would be two small wires on the small screw terminals that would go to the meter for the shunt, usually a twisted pair.

Maybe my phrases were confusing. The first picture is a diagram of my wiring based on Renogy's install video. The other labeled pictures are from before my install, as I've not downloaded post-install pics yet. However, the fuse buss bar wiring was not changed. All my descriptions below are what changed with the bypass of the original Isolator.

- The engine battery cable (top right of old Isolator) is now wired to the new DC-DC Charger.
- I also moved the Ignition Wire from top left of the old Isolator to the DC-DC Charger.
- The other battery cable (top left of the old Isolator) is now wired to the new batteries to power the generator starter.
- The DC fuse buss ground (16 ga.? from lower left of Isolator) was run to the SOC shunt in order to track battery current used.
- The remaining wires on the old Isolator (tank monitor & generator hour meter) were re-wired to the 12 buss bar above the old Isolator.
- The original 6 ga. 12v cable was left on the 12v buss bar (above the old Isolator) and not altered, but I did run a new 4ga. positive from the new batteries to power the buss bar through a 60A ANL fuse connector.

Regarding the external ground wire at the inverter:

There was a sizeable bare ground at a lug on the old Tripplite that I ran to the ground on the new inverter. As I previously stated, I can't confirm I ever checked the inverter outlet with the original Tripplite to see if the Open Ground existed previously. Yesterday I fulled the cover off the Power Center and all wires were tight and right.

I'm getting ready for our trip and may not have time to post again. But I appreciate any comments. Hope the above does not add additional confusion.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I don't see a ground lug in any of the photos either. The older version Renogy 3000W inverter/charger had a ground lug and that would be grounded to the RV frame.

I suggest phoning Renogy and asking how to ground the inverter for mobile or marine use.

Did the previous Tripp-Lite have a ground terminal?

Also, It's a large enough inverter to be "whole house" use in the RV. Typically it would be installed that way to more fully utilize any built in protections such as low or high voltage or frequency as examples.

Thanks. They've been closed for the long weekend, but I will call them today.

See pics and comments in post above regarding external ground wires to inverter.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Thanks. They've been closed for the long weekend, but I will call them today.

See pics and comments in post above regarding external ground wires to inverter.

It all looks pretty good to me, with the question of the 16ga ground wire connections. It is possible that is only there to make a place for when two wires for + and - DC are run and may be connected to the chassis through the power panel. How does the power get back to the negative of the battery, or how did it before?


The big question still is if the auto bonding in the inverter is working or if there is an open ground wire someplace which is much less likely as it seems to conduct on shore power.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

It all looks pretty good to me, with the question of the 16ga ground wire connections. It is possible that is only there to make a place for when two wires for + and - DC are run and may be connected to the chassis through the power panel. How does the power get back to the negative of the battery, or how did it before?

The big question still is if the auto bonding in the inverter is working or if there is an open ground wire someplace which is much less likely as it seems to conduct on shore power.

To your question: "How does the power get back to the negative of the battery, or how did it before?" Once I wired things per the Renogy diagram, I had no power to my 12v system. The first thing I had to do is run new power to my 12v buss bar. After I did that via a 4ga. cable through a 60A ANL fuse, I still had no 12v power.

At that point, there was still one small white wire remaining on the old Isolator labeled "Ground". When I jumped this wire to the battery ground the 12v system in the van came alive. I realized then I needed to wire it through the "B"+" on the SOC monitor shunt. Once I did that, I had both power and can now monitor the power drains.

As to the auto bonding question, I will ask Renogy again. Really didn't get an answer last time, but will be persistent.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

To your question: "How does the power get back to the negative of the battery, or how did it before?" Once I wired things per the Renogy diagram, I had no power to my 12v system. The first thing I had to do is run new power to my 12v buss bar. After I did that via a 4ga. cable through a 60A ANL fuse, I still had no 12v power.

At that point, there was still one small white wire remaining on the old Isolator labeled "Ground". When I jumped this wire to the battery ground the 12v system in the van came alive. I realized then I needed to wire it through the "B"+" on the SOC monitor shunt. Once I did that, I had both power and can now monitor the power drains.

As to the auto bonding question, I will ask Renogy again. Really didn't get an answer last time, but will be persistent.

OK, progress I think. Was the white wire on the isolator still connected to the chassis when you jumped it to the battery ground and got power. If so, you likely were backfeeding all the chassis 12v ground through that wire and would need to add a jumper from the chassis to the non battery side of the shunt. You would use the same 6ga as the power to the power center has on it.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

OK, progress I think. Was the white wire on the isolator still connected to the chassis when you jumped it to the battery ground and got power. If so, you likely were backfeeding all the chassis 12v ground through that wire and would need to add a jumper from the chassis to the non battery side of the shunt. You would use the same 6ga as the power to the power center has on it.

The white wire was sitting on the totally disconnected Isolator that was only held in place by it's mounting bracket screwed into a block of wood. What was grounding it before? Good question.

Here's a better picture that shows a small connection buss on the lower left side of the old Isolator. This pic way taken while the Isolation was still connected.

Note: The "1A Blade Fuse" label that is partially in the way is on an inline fuse (the yellow wire from the top right) that powers the Tank Monitor. It blew once and was difficult to find until Airstream sent me a schematic. I labeled it so I wouldn't forget what it went to and to make it easy to find.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

The white wire was sitting on the totally disconnected Isolator that was only held in place by it's mounting bracket screwed into a block of wood. What was grounding it before? Good question.

Here's a better picture that shows a small connection buss on the lower left side of the old Isolator. This pic way taken while the Isolation was still connected.

Note: The "1A Blade Fuse" label that is partially in the way, in on an inline fuse (the yellow wire from the top right) that powers the Tank Monitor. It blew once and was difficult to find until Airstream sent me a schematic. I labeled it so I wouldn't forget what it went to and to make it easy to find.

The buss bar on the isolator probably is a ground bar and also may be grounded through the isolator frame and mounting bolts.


Irregardless, you should have something in the range of 6ga between the chassis and the non battery side of the shunt so you don't overload the small wiring. 6ga is about 50 amp capable so typical for feeding the coach and all of it has to be able to go through the shunt.


I just looked at the pic of your system and there appears to be no way for 50 amps to get back from the batteries from the coach stuff, just two large wires from the inverter and the 12 to 12 charger. I would get a #6 wire from the chassis to the shunt before you leave. Just buy a short cable and hook it up to both so shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.