Mr. Jim Hammill attacks again

[Yoshimura]

Originally Posted by booster

IIRC, in the original discussion of this topic, it was mentioned that Roadtrek had permanently bonded neutral and ground (in the breaker box?).

In fact, it tripped the GFCI as soon as I turn on the inverter so the neutral and ground are probably not permanently bonded.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Yoshimura

In fact, it tripped the GFCI as soon as I turn on the inverter so the neutral and ground are probably not permanently bonded.

Do you have one of the inverter chargers that have to have the inverter on for the charger to charge the coach batteries?

[Yoshimura]

Originally Posted by booster

Do you have one of the inverter chargers that have to have the inverter on for the charger to charge the coach batteries?

According to the battery tension I see when the inverter is on or off, I would say yes.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Yoshimura

According to the battery tension I see when the inverter is on or off, I would say yes.

That would probably explain why the dealer said they all do it. The inverter is probably autobonding when you turn it on, but you have no choice as it has to be on to charger your batteries.


Other inveter/chargers, like the Magnum we have and I think almost all others, are set up so you turn the inverter separately from the charger (which often starts automatically when it sees shore power).


It is a bummer when you can't charge your batteries off a GFCI outlet as they are required in all garages and outdoor outlet locations that we all have at home.

[Yoshimura]

Originally Posted by booster

It is a bummer when you can't charge your batteries off a GFCI outlet as they are required in all garages and outdoor outlet locations that we all have at home.

Yes, I had to install a 30-amps outlet because of this. At least, now I have 30 amps at home.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Yoshimura

Yes, I had to install a 30-amps outlet because of this. At least, now I have 30 amps at home.

If you have access to a clamp on ammeter and can get to the single wires of the van, it would be interesting to see if you have current in both the neutral and ground, as that would tell you if the inverter is autobonding with shore power on, which it really shouldn't do. Code says the only bonding allowed is at the service entrance of the residence, so nothing else should have a bond.

[Yoshimura]

Originally Posted by booster

If you have access to a clamp on ammeter and can get to the single wires of the van, it would be interesting to see if you have current in both the neutral and ground, as that would tell you if the inverter is autobonding with shore power on, which it really shouldn't do. Code says the only bonding allowed is at the service entrance of the residence, so nothing else should have a bond.

Unfortunately, I don't have one but I will check if I ever get my hands on one.

So before connecting to shore power (or turning on the inverter) the neutral and ground are bounded together. Maybe the GFCI have the time to detect this condition before the inverter unbound them? If I remember correctly, it takes the inverter 10 ms to switch lines.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Yoshimura

Unfortunately, I don't have one but I will check if I ever get my hands on one.

So before connecting to shore power (or turning on the inverter) the neutral and ground are bounded together. Maybe the GFCI have the time to detect this condition before the inverter unbound them? If I remember correctly, it takes the inverter 10 ms to switch lines.

In a "normal" inverter that autobonds, it will be unbonded when there is no shore power and the inverter is off. It will autobond when there is no shore power but the inverter is on. It will not be bonded if the inverter is on and there is shore power, I think, in most inverters. I will have to look at my Magnum manual to make sure, though, as that is a mode we never use.


What would be happening, if this is your issue, would be that the van is unbonded with the inverter off, you plug in fine, but then it bonds when you turn on the inverter and trips the GFCI.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Booster, Interesting. I haven't met that hymer code violation in an Aktiv. Is the ground to neutral bond in the main panel box? I'd recommend that Yoshimura have an electrician cut the "Green link" then use an ohm meter to check for an open circuit.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Do you have one of the inverter chargers that have to have the inverter on for the charger to charge the coach batteries?

I don't know what inverters are supplied for the Activ but the Roadtreks that use the Powerstar inverter do require the inverter to be powered on for the shoreside charger to operate. It's a flawed design because a faulty inverter shuts down a perfectly functional shoreside charger.

[ContinuousImprovement]

One of the major reasons for the ground wire is to carry current away from the vehicle when a plugged-in appliance fails and its hot wire touches its metal case (e.g., refrigerator, AC, Truma). When Hymer's 18-gauge fails the whole RV instead is live and ready to kill.

[ContinuousImprovement]

The inverter disconnects shore power hot and neutral until the inverter has 12vdv and is turned on. Therefore the gfci will not trip when the inverter is off.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

That would probably explain why the dealer said they all do it. The inverter is probably autobonding when you turn it on, but you have no choice as it has to be on to charger your batteries.


Other inveter/chargers, like the Magnum we have and I think almost all others, are set up so you turn the inverter separately from the charger (which often starts automatically when it sees shore power).


It is a bummer when you can't charge your batteries off a GFCI outlet as they are required in all garages and outdoor outlet locations that we all have at home.

I believe cutting the main panel "Green Link" is both much safer and allows charging from Gfci.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't know what inverters are supplied for the Activ but the Roadtreks that use the Powerstar inverter do require the inverter to be powered on for the shoreside charger to operate. It's a flawed design because a faulty inverter shuts down a perfectly functional shoreside charger.

The Aktiv and newer roadtreks have the Microgreen integrated inverter/changer. The cabin will not accept shore power or charge batteries until the inverter first has 12vdc and the inverter is on. This is why we can't recharge totally dead batteries from shore power.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

Booster, Interesting. I haven't met that hymer code violation in an Aktiv. Is the ground to neutral bond in the main panel box? I'd recommend that Yoshimura have an electrician cut the "Green link" then use an ohm meter to check for an open circuit.

I seem to remember that in your original thread that the main panel was neutral ground bonded, thus giving two bonds which is a violation. In your drawing you show a bond to chassis in green, is that the "green link" you are talking about.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

I believe cutting the main panel "Green Link" is both much safer and allows charging from Gfci.

That is true, but the that bond should not be there anyway. It still wouldn't do anything for if the inverter section needs to be on to charge batteries and it autobonds, which we don't know at this point.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

The Aktiv and newer roadtreks have the Microgreen integrated inverter/changer. The cabin will not accept shore power or charge batteries until the inverter first has 12vdc and the inverter is on. This is why we can't recharge totally dead batteries from shore power.

Needing shore power and 12v battery reference is the norm for smart chargers, so no oddity there.



The question is if when you are saying the "inverter" needs to be on to charge, do you mean the inverter/charger inverter and charger sections, or just charger?



The Magnum works just as you describe, but the inverter section does not come on automatically with shore power and it has it's own on/off switch.

[ContinuousImprovement]

The bottom line is ground (earth) must only be bonded to neutral in the shore power breaker box when the Rv is powered from shore power. Dangerously, hymer/Rt uses 18-gauge wire for the ground conductor.

[ContinuousImprovement]

We finally have photographic evidence that Roadtrek's 3000-watt inverter/charger dangerously uses a single 18-gauge wire for the 120 volt 30-amp service ground conductor. Page 11 shows the added UL-458 violation evidence. This resolves RT owner confusion between 2000-watt and 3000-watt inverters when filing their attorney general complaint. Both are in violation of UL-458 so owners should file suspected fraud a complaint regardless of the wattage.

[Luv2Go]

I wonder if/how Mr. Hammill's recent "suspension" from EHGNA will affect this issue?