Lithium swap anyone?

[hardybob]

My 210 roadtrek has 2 6v trojan t-105s that are about 8 years old now and still hanging in there. I have 250 watts solar and boondock frequently. All LED lighting. Have been trolling lately about the new lithium replacements (12v) offered from a few companies that are supposed to work fine on AGM charge settings. Trojan unfortunately has been giving me the runaround for almost 2 months on pricing and availability (now starting to think they do not actually have them out yet). Benefits on weight reduction and usage seem to be very good, and pricing i know will be a shocker. Has anyone done a swap out with lithiums yet? Which brand, And what are the results showing? Happy New Year to all.

[hbn7hj]

Surprised you have gotten no replies. Does that mean no one has done it? Temperature is the problem. If you are located where it never freezes then Battleborn makes one that replaces the T105, you can read about it on their website and they do ship. You do have to be home to sign for it and you cannot schedule delivery for your convenience. If you are not home they will return it to Battleborn immediately. Just an FYI. These complications are due to it being worth $1000 and considered hazardous material.

Can't get a location From your profile.

[hardybob]

In northern arkansas, so good bit of freezing, but we are fair weather travelers so avoid the summers in the south and winters in the north. Trojan says their lithium is ok for freezing weather, but....? So far looks like about $2400 for two batteries in parallel with some other vendors. Will chk out battleborn. Thanks.

[Oliver2017]

Give Lithionics a look with their plug and play system...

[hbn7hj]

The Battleborn batteries are only 50 amp hours each, I note. If you don't provide heaters lithiums need to be inside.

[Winston]

It is our understanding that the most limiting temperature restriction on lithiums is the "Do Not Charge Below This Temperature" limitation which most understand to be freezing. If you're not traveling in the cold months, the batteries themselves are good down to zero (or slightly colder).

We have had lithiums in service for just under two years. However, we haven't pushed these limits. And ours are not AGM 'drop in' replacements . . . so can't directly respond to your question. We, however, remain suspicious about 'drop-in' lithiums as AGM charging voltages are higher than conventional lithiums. Our system, for example, is currently (during this off, non-travel season) being maintained at 13.3 volts. During the travel season we run that up to 13.4 volts (which is essentially fully charged - - at least it's 90% of full charge). Only for SOC instrumentation re-calibration or when undertaking a full battery capacity test/check do we run the voltage higher, then only to 14.2 volts and that is for a limited and closely monitored duration.

[kite_rider]

I'm in the process of adding lithium to make a parallel AGM/Lithium setup, so not really a 'swap'. But the plan is to use the existing inverter/charger as well as alternator based charging. You can follow my progress (and other's too) in this thread;

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...-a-8478-7.html


After starting this project, I can tell you from experience that buying a 'drop in' will be easier. But on the upside, I'm mostly done and the DIY approach has cost me less than $1000 with about the usable power equivalent of adding 3 100Ah AGM batteries..

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by Winston

It is our understanding that the most limiting temperature restriction on lithiums is the "Do Not Charge Below This Temperature" limitation which most understand to be freezing. If you're not traveling in the cold months, the batteries themselves are good down to zero (or slightly colder).

We have had lithiums in service for just under two years. However, we haven't pushed these limits. And ours are not AGM 'drop in' replacements . . . so can't directly respond to your question. We, however, remain suspicious about 'drop-in' lithiums as AGM charging voltages are higher than conventional lithiums. Our system, for example, is currently (during this off, non-travel season) being maintained at 13.3 volts. During the travel season we run that up to 13.4 volts (which is essentially fully charged - - at least it's 90% of full charge). Only for SOC instrumentation re-calibration or when undertaking a full battery capacity test/check do we run the voltage higher, then only to 14.2 volts and that is for a limited and closely monitored duration.

Progressive Dynamics 9100L lithium charger charges at 14.6 volts. Which is higher than the 14.4 AGM limit. I don't have two years of history but I do have one year and things seem to be going well.

We see 14.6 volts every charge cycle. Why the difference? What brand charger are you using?

[Knit]

Battleborn told me that the Triplite charger in my 2013 Roadtrek did not have the right charging voltages to use with their batteries. I recommend that you get in touch with the battery manufactures and ask them to verify that your charger is compatible in case you need to change that out also.

[Winston]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Progressive Dynamics 9100L lithium charger charges at 14.6 volts. Which is higher than the 14.4 AGM limit. I don't have two years of history but I do have one year and things seem to be going well.

We see 14.6 volts every charge cycle. Why the difference? What brand charger are you using?

Your 'numbers' are breath-taking. We have three charging sources: 1) a Magnum 2812; 2) 810 watts of solar through a MidNite Classic controller; and, 3) a second 280 amp Nations alternator with an external Balmar regulator. Our 500 ah lithium 'system' came from Starlight Solar (Elite).

All three charging sources have mostly suitable (another topic) programming allowing us to tailor our chargers to our lithium pack. The question, therefore, isn't whether these charges can charge at your elevated voltages, but whether they should.

We have run extensive full charge/discharge cycles on our system. Here is a Table of two of our discharge runs:

Calculated
State of Charge ---Resting Voltage (2 runs)
100%----------------13.71----13.91
90%-----------------13.36----13.36
80%-----------------13.35/6--13.36
70%-----------------13.28
60%-----------------13.21----13.21/22
50%-----------------13.19
40%-----------------13.18----13.19
30%-----------------13.12
20%-----------------13.02----13.04
10%-----------------12.89
0%(500ah)----------12.47----15.50
516ah----------------11.92/93

Based on this table we have selected 13.4 volts as our normal target/operating voltage. If we know we're going to be off-grid for an extended time, we'll reprogram chargers to take us to 100% SOC (generally 13.8 volts).

Although the manufacturer suggests "equalization" charging at 14.2 volts, most commentators caution that maintaining lithiums at 100% may not be healthy for the pack. We do run our charger(s) at 14.2 every few months to check and re-attain 'equalization'. This is equivalent to 3.55 volts/cell. We have deliberately taken the voltage higher to 'see' what happens and were surprised to see how quickly, from 3.55 volts, the cell voltage soars. It is easy to see how damaging charge levels could be attained by taking the charge voltage above 14.2v.

For us, the bottom line is: Why operate this pack above 13.4 volts? Not only do we avoid the possibility of damaging overcharge, but further, by operating between 80-90% SOC we get to use 'most' of our pack's capacity while backing down from that high (100% SOC) charge level that many believe to stress the pack. (Indeed, it is our understanding that for storage, an SOC between 50-60% is recommended).

[hbn7hj]

Gotta go with your battery manufacturer's recommendations. Battleborn recommends 14.6 volts. Who knows why the difference using the same battery type.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by Winston

Your 'numbers' are breath-taking. We have three charging sources: 1) a Magnum 2812; 2) 810 watts of solar through a MidNite Classic controller; and, 3) a second 280 amp Nations alternator with an external Balmar regulator. Our 500 ah lithium 'system' came from Starlight Solar (Elite).

All three charging sources have mostly suitable (another topic) programming allowing us to tailor our chargers to our lithium pack. The question, therefore, isn't whether these charges can charge at your elevated voltages, but whether they should.

We have run extensive full charge/discharge cycles on our system. Here is a Table of two of our discharge runs:

Calculated
State of Charge ---Resting Voltage (2 runs)
100%----------------13.71----13.91
90%-----------------13.36----13.36
80%-----------------13.35/6--13.36
70%-----------------13.28
60%-----------------13.21----13.21/22
50%-----------------13.19
40%-----------------13.18----13.19
30%-----------------13.12
20%-----------------13.02----13.04
10%-----------------12.89
0%(500ah)----------12.47----15.50
516ah----------------11.92/93

Based on this table we have selected 13.4 volts as our normal target/operating voltage. If we know we're going to be off-grid for an extended time, we'll reprogram chargers to take us to 100% SOC (generally 13.8 volts).

Although the manufacturer suggests "equalization" charging at 14.2 volts, most commentators caution that maintaining lithiums at 100% may not be healthy for the pack. We do run our charger(s) at 14.2 every few months to check and re-attain 'equalization'. This is equivalent to 3.55 volts/cell. We have deliberately taken the voltage higher to 'see' what happens and were surprised to see how quickly, from 3.55 volts, the cell voltage soars. It is easy to see how damaging charge levels could be attained by taking the charge voltage above 14.2v.

For us, the bottom line is: Why operate this pack above 13.4 volts? Not only do we avoid the possibility of damaging overcharge, but further, by operating between 80-90% SOC we get to use 'most' of our pack's capacity while backing down from that high (100% SOC) charge level that many believe to stress the pack. (Indeed, it is our understanding that for storage, an SOC between 50-60% is recommended).

Elitepowersolutions.com (is that your vendor) says 15.2 volts is the maximum for a 4 cell pack. Ours wouldn't even charge (at least very slowly) at the voltages you use. Does anyone else use such low voltages on a lithium bank?

[tgregg]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Elitepowersolutions.com (is that your vendor) says 15.2 volts is the maximum for a 4 cell pack. Ours wouldn't even charge (at least very slowly) at the voltages you use. Does anyone else use such low voltages on a lithium bank?

I have 2 100ah Stark Power Li batteries that I charge with the Promaster's stock 220 amp alternator, which depending on ambient temperature charges at 13.8 to 14.2 volts.

I use the shunt based Victron BMV 712 battery monitor internal relay to disconnect charging when the SOC reaches 95%. The resting battery voltage at that point is about 13.4 volts.

Once every month or so I charge the batteries with a 10 amp AC Li battery charger that charges at 14.6 volts until the charge current drops to 0 amps to reset the Victron's SOC to 100%.

[Santiago]

Originally Posted by tgregg

I have 2 100ah Stark Power Li batteries that I charge with the Promaster's stock 220 amp alternator, which depending on ambient temperature charges at 13.8 to 14.2 volts.

I use the shunt based Victron BMV 712 battery monitor internal relay to disconnect charging when the SOC reaches 95%. The resting battery voltage at that point is about 13.4 volts.

Once every month or so I charge the batteries with a 10 amp AC Li battery charger that charges at 14.6 volts until the charge current drops to 0 amps to reset the Victron's SOC to 100%.

Hi Tom,

Your charging method is what others I know have adopted and is working well for them. That is what I am going to be doing with the EliteSolutions system I am putting together now. Will follow your method of calibrating the Victron monitor as well. As far as charging voltage, taking your and Winstons' recommendation. These charging voltages concur with early Lithium adopters finding in the field.

Curious, I have the same 220amp alternator, what range of current do you see coming through ?

Santiago

[tgregg]

Originally Posted by Santiago

Hi Tom,



Curious, I have the same 220amp alternator, what range of current do you see coming through ?

Santiago

Depending on depth of discharge, I typically see 75 - 80 amps at idle. I've never looked at the amps while driving, but the batteries reach 95% within 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours of driving. The wire from the engine battery to the house batteries is about 10-12 feet of 2awg wire.

If I'm going sit for a day without driving, I idle the engine about 15 minutes to heat shower water in a 4 gallon marine hot water heater connected to the engine cooling system and that puts back about 20ah.

I'm thinking about running the hot water beater off my 1000 watt inverter (it has a 750 watt heating element as well) because once the water is hot from driving it might not take much at all to keep the water warm. I'm going to test that this spring.

[Santiago]

Originally Posted by tgregg

Depending on depth of discharge, I typically see 75 - 80 amps at idle. I've never looked at the amps while driving, but the batteries reach 95% within 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours of driving.

Hi Tom, thanks for the information that gives me a preview of what to expect. I will likely experiment with more than one charge wire gauge to see how it affects charge current.

Sounds like you have an Isotherm water heater. I am getting one too but will start using the 750 watt 120vAC element. Later on when I connect to engine coolant I will consider terminating engine coolant somewhere near engine using a plate heat exchanger. The outgput side of the exchanger will have a different coolant chemistry routed back to the water heater and maybe a space heater as well. Nothing like free energy.

Thanks again for inspiring many of us looking at lithium charging safely using the Victron 700 series monitor with relay output. Brilliant concept.

Santiago

[honeyboy]

BattleBorn batteries are 100AH, not 50 I have two in parallel in my 2001 Roadtrek. I put them in a year ago with a 2000w inverter and a stand alone Lithium charges that charges to 14.2. Once per month I excersise my generator and bring the batts up from 13.4v to 14.2v to equalize them. This is what Battle Born recommends. I have one Vicrton solar controller and Grape 180 w solar panel. This set up works great so far. No over charging from alternator or solar. It’s a sweet set up. I would be hesitant to listen to armchair experts. Go with advice from people who have real, first hand experience with the systems. IMHO.......

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by honeyboy

BattleBorn batteries are 100AH, not 50 I have two in parallel in my 2001 Roadtrek. I put them in a year ago with a 2000w inverter and a stand alone Lithium charges that charges to 14.2. Once per month I excersise my generator and bring the batts up from 13.4v to 14.2v to equalize them. This is what Battle Born recommends. I have one Vicrton solar controller and Grape 180 w solar panel. This set up works great so far. No over charging from alternator or solar. It’s a sweet set up. I would be hesitant to listen to armchair experts. Go with advice from people who have real, first hand experience with the systems. IMHO.......

Battleborn is hardly “experts”. They purchase cells from China and assemble them here.

Here is my favorite source for accurate information on LiFePO4 batteries. Read and learn: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

[booster]

Originally Posted by honeyboy

BattleBorn batteries are 100AH, not 50 I have two in parallel in my 2001 Roadtrek. I put them in a year ago with a 2000w inverter and a stand alone Lithium charges that charges to 14.2. Once per month I excersise my generator and bring the batts up from 13.4v to 14.2v to equalize them. This is what Battle Born recommends. I have one Vicrton solar controller and Grape 180 w solar panel. This set up works great so far. No over charging from alternator or solar. It’s a sweet set up. I would be hesitant to listen to armchair experts. Go with advice from people who have real, first hand experience with the systems. IMHO.......

How are you preventing overcharging from the solar or the alternator? From all the information we have been seeing lately, lithium batteries should not be held at a fixed voltage or floated, although this is contrary to what nearly all the drop in battery folks say, possibly because they want to be able to use existing charging systems, and very few of them will have full shut off charging sources.


I would agree with Jostalli that Battleborn doesn't seem to be very much at the top of tech, which is a bit of a surprise. Even a lot of the data and calculations on their website are wrong. They are an offshoot of Dragonfly which has been around quite a while and was started by a quite knowledgeable guy, from what I have seen. Dragonfly always assembled hear and claimed to have their own BMS in the batteries, but never really caught on. I am not certain if they are still doing all of the assembly here or buying the now readily available drop in batteries complete form China. I have read information each way on that.

[israndy]

And if they are drop-in replacements for Lead-Acid does that mean they are able to be used in freezing conditions? Do they have temp sensors and keep energy from flowing in when the cells are below freezing?

I know my Telsa works hard to prevent issues with charging when it's cold. They run coolant between the cells when you plug-in to charge and they are below freezing the coolant is heated as part of the cabin heat system and run thru until the batteries have warmed up. Then and only then does the power go to the batteries.

Same thing if you start to drive. You will find that the normal engine braking (called regen on an electric car) is disabled until the batteries have warmed up.

I can just see the sun beating down on my freezing RV and sending the solar power racing to the batteries stored under the vehicle. If the built-in BMS doesn't cut them off what's going to stop the batts from charging when frozen? That's a situation that will KILL a lithium battery.

-Randy