Lithium battery conversion

[booster]

Originally Posted by Nspekter

These batteries have built in heating. I don’t know how quickly they use their charge to maintain the internal temperature they need. I’ll send them another email asking that.

You might also want to ask them what the minimum storage temp without heaters on is. Many of the suppliers of the better lithium systems are specifying no colder than -4*F for storage.

[Nspekter]

They say they’re good to -20F. I should clarify if that’s with or without heating on.

[booster]

Here is the 11 year warranty details. Leaves them all the ways to get out of a claim such as "negligence and misuse" usage that is undefined. It doesn't state what "wear and tear" capacity limits to life are, etc etc. It is non transferable and can be only used once per item so if you get a bad replacement you look to be out at that point.



https://dakotalithium.com/faq/warranty-return-policy/


I would bet the 11 years was chosen because others have 10 years, not on life testing.

[Nspekter]

So they said the heaters only come on when it detects below freezing and it's connected to a charging source.

[JonMN]

Hi Paul! I realize this is kind of an old thread, but I am considering a very similar upgrade so I'm interested what you decide. My Coachmen Beyond has a 330AH AGM on an under chassis tray. I found a 300AH lithium of essentially the same dimensions--even the terminals are in the same location.

While I agree moving it into the coach is ideal, I'm not sure I can reroute wiring without a major hassle, so I was thinking of trying the battery in the same external tray.

There is a surprising difference in dust and moisture ratings between the lithiums brands. If I decide to risk it, I'm going with the Ionic 300AH battery mentioned earlier in the thread. It's enclosure is rated IP56, which translates to (5) protected from dust with no harmful deposits and (6) protected against strong jets of water. I did consider some type of wrap when installing. While temps are not as ideal as in the coach, it's heated for low temps and the high temp protection does not kick in until 149F.

I'm not sure of the DC-DC, but I am leaning towards the Victron orion non-isolated 30 smart charger. It looks like I should be able do just remove my BIM-160 and replace with this.

Anyway, if you have a chance, I will be interested to see what you decide.

[booster]

Originally Posted by JonMN

Hi Paul! I realize this is kind of an old thread, but I am considering a very similar upgrade so I'm interested what you decide. My Coachmen Beyond has a 330AH AGM on an under chassis tray. I found a 300AH lithium of essentially the same dimensions--even the terminals are in the same location.

While I agree moving it into the coach is ideal, I'm not sure I can reroute wiring without a major hassle, so I was thinking of trying the battery in the same external tray.

There is a surprising difference in dust and moisture ratings between the lithiums brands. If I decide to risk it, I'm going with the Ionic 300AH battery mentioned earlier in the thread. It's enclosure is rated IP56, which translates to (5) protected from dust with no harmful deposits and (6) protected against strong jets of water. I did consider some type of wrap when installing. While temps are not as ideal as in the coach, it's heated for low temps and the high temp protection does not kick in until 149F.

I'm not sure of the DC-DC, but I am leaning towards the Victron orion non-isolated 30 smart charger. It looks like I should be able do just remove my BIM-160 and replace with this.

Anyway, if you have a chance, I will be interested to see what you decide.

You live in Minnesota, as do I. How are you going to power the heaters if it is stored outdoors in the winter. Many battery manufacturers who are in the know are saying no long term storage under -4*F and we certainly qualify for getting regularly below that.

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by PPPPaul

Also, any thoughts on storing lithium batteries in the under-chassis tray? I think they should hold up better than AGM, but an AGM evangelist just told me he thinks it'l cut the lithium battery life.

Paul. I have renogy Smart batteries that I installed in the outside battery boxes on my 2007 190P roadtrek. I will be moving them inside because of issues with corrosion in the cat 5 ports on the batteries. Renogy has replaced on battery and and now working on getting the second one replaced. There has never been any water in the compartments, must be humidity and condensation.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

You live in Minnesota, as do I. How are you going to power the heaters if it is stored outdoors in the winter. Many battery manufacturers who are in the know are saying no long term storage under -4*F and we certainly qualify for getting regularly below that.

My Lithion Valence batteries are rated to -40F storage rating which I believe is the same as AGMs. They are still subject to not being able to be chargeable below freezing but I have an electric pad battery heater underneath the batteries so shore power would do it regardless whether -4F or -40F, but not a problem if I am leery of their claims as I now store inside a garage at 50F at its worse. In the past with my previous van I stored lithium ion outside in Minnesota with shore power and heating pads in a box underneath my van. Underway in my current van with batteries inside, the heat from the Espar diesel-fired while parked does the job and cab heat or electric heating pads while driving and charging the batteries at 270 amps per hour with the second alternator.

I'm not sure how the manufacturer accomplishes the -40F claim for lithium iron when the others don't but the battery industry is going to have to in Minnesota. I've had lithium ion batteries going on 9 years and have camped overnight to -15F (Tahquamenon Falls SP in the UP) so have no worries about lithium.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

My Lithion Valence batteries are rated to -40F storage rating which I believe is the same as AGMs. They are still subject to not being able to be chargeable below freezing but I have an electric pad battery heater underneath the batteries so shore power would do it regardless whether -4F or -40F, but not a problem if I am leery of their claims as I now store inside a garage at 50F at its worse. In the past with my previous van I stored lithium ion outside in Minnesota with shore power and heating pads in a box underneath my van. Underway in my current van with batteries inside, the heat from the Espar diesel-fired while parked does the job and cab heat or electric heating pads while driving and charging the batteries at 270 amps per hour with the second alternator.

I'm not sure how the manufacturer accomplishes the -40F claim for lithium iron when the others don't but the battery industry is going to have to in Minnesota. I've had lithium ion batteries going on 9 years and have camped overnight to -15F (Tahquamenon Falls SP in the UP) so have no worries about lithium.

In the early days many said -40* was OK for their lithium batteries, but pretty soon many/most went to the -4*F as lowest storage, I think. Valence was an outlier at that point by staying at -40*.


I just tried to find a storage spec on the current Valence batteries and it is not listed anywhere that I could find. Valence will not let you download a complete specification sheet unless you give them all you personal information which, IMO, is pretty silly and like they don't want people to see them when shopping for batteries. Anybody feeling like giving their information to get a sped sheet so maybe it will list minimum storage temperature?


In my search I did run across lots of Valence batteries batteries on ebay being sold as "for parts, not working" which was a big surprise to me.

[avanti]

There are datasheets around from Valence that show storage temperature ranges of -40°C to +50°C, but they are all quite old. Here's one from January 2013:
https://mesa-tec.com/wp-content/uplo...ge_U1-12RT.pdf
All of the more recent sheets that I have seen omit this datum.

EDIT:
I just found a Safety Data Sheet from Lithium Works ( who acquired Valence in 2018 ) dated 1/2020, which lists several Valence batteries. It shows the -40°C to +50°C safe storage range.

https://lithiumwerks.com/wp-content/...SDS-010620.pdf

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

There are datasheets around from Valence that show storage temperature ranges of -40°C to +50°C, but they are all quite old. Here's one from January 2013:
https://mesa-tec.com/wp-content/uplo...ge_U1-12RT.pdf
All of the more recent sheets that I have seen omit this datum.

EDIT:
I just found a Safety Data Sheet from Lithium Works ( who acquired Valence in 2018 ) dated 1/2020, which lists several Valence batteries. It shows the -40°C to +50°C safe storage range.

https://lithiumwerks.com/wp-content/...SDS-010620.pdf

I also found the old ones that said the -40*C and an MSDS from 2021 that didn't address it. The format was similar but not identical to the one you showed and it was one battery specific. It only addressed high temp storage hazard, where the one you list also addresses battery life. I have never seen something like that on an MSDS as they generally only address hazards.


I think the one you show may be an EU document and the MSDS is a US thing.


I couldn't find any major brand that wasn't at the -4*F now in the ones that showed a storage spec, at least that I ran across.


All the general recommendations from alleged experts were also at -4F.

[avanti]

I suppose there could be a distinction between safe for a person and safe for the battery. ��*♂️

[Boxster1971]

Got the U-CHARGE Quick Reference Guide, dated Jun 2021, from the Lithion Valence Resources page without having to enter personal information:

https://www.lithionbattery.com/wp-co...0608-v3100.pdf

Contains this info on Battery Storage:
- Store in a well-ventilated, clean, dry area, between -40°C and 50°C, ideally
- Do not expose the battery to temperatures above 60°C (140° F).
- Do not expose the battery to direct sunlight, moisture, or precipitation.
- Handle each battery carefully to avoid sharp impacts or extreme pressure
on the case.

[SteveJ]

Found this on page 2 here:
https://www.lithionbattery.com/wp-co...0608-v3100.pdf

Operating Temperature Recommendations

The ambient temperature should be between 0°c and 45°C during charging and
-20°c and 50°C during discharge. If your application requires operation beyond these
ranges, consult Lithion Customer Support for recommendations.

[booster]

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Found this on page 2 here:
https://www.lithionbattery.com/wp-co...0608-v3100.pdf

Operating Temperature Recommendations

The ambient temperature should be between 0°c and 45°C during charging and
-20°c and 50°C during discharge. If your application requires operation beyond these
ranges, consult Lithion Customer Support for recommendations.

On page 3 they show the -40C, so they must still be saying that, at least in June 2021.

[markopolo]

I've seen a couple of photos of water inside LiFePO4 battery cases now. Presumably, it's from condensation due to humidity inside the sealed case and temperature changes. One stopped working and the case was opened to find the moisture inside. The failure was reported to be that the BMS shorted out because of water on it.

I assume that there are more failures out there due to this but not many folks actually take the case apart to find out.

It leads me to believe that these batteries need to be kept in a temperature controlled environment. I guess an alternative to that would be a vented case with a drain and just heat the cells when necessary but that could still result in corrosion/oxidation of unprotected components.

[Boxster1971]

This short video on the Valence U Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries highlights why these batteries made a good choice for building battery packs at Advanced RV.

https://youtu.be/cDVLEo_Hr2E

[avanti]

That video answered a question I was wondering about: Exactly what chemistry do these batteries employ that lets them advertise such a low minimum storage temperature?

The answer is "Lithium Iron Phosphate". LiFePO4 is exactly the same chemistry used by most other mainstream lithium battery providers. So what is it that allows them to make this extraordinary claim? Is there some other characteristic (packaging, some electrolyte conditioning trick, and additive...) that only they use?

Of course, it is quite possible that these batteries behave exactly the same as any other with similar chemistry at low temperatures. The claimed minimum temperature spec may be a simple calculated risk made by the marketing department. Lacking an industry standard for measuring such things, there is nothing to stop them from doing this, and it may well be that they make a lot more money from the undoubted gain in market share than they lose in the occasional warranty claim.

Who knows?

[Bud]

Originally Posted by avanti

That video answered a question I was wondering about: Exactly what chemistry do these batteries employ that lets them advertise such a low minimum storage temperature?

The answer is "Lithium Iron Phosphate". LiFePO4 is exactly the same chemistry used by most other mainstream lithium battery providers. So what is it that allows them to make this extraordinary claim? Is there some other characteristic (packaging, some electrolyte conditioning trick, and additive...) that only they use?

Of course, it is quite possible that these batteries behave exactly the same as any other with similar chemistry at low temperatures. The claimed minimum temperature spec may be a simple calculated risk made by the marketing department. Lacking an industry standard for measuring such things, there is nothing to stop them from doing this, and it may well be that they make a lot more money from the undoubted gain in market share than they lose in the occasional warranty claim.

Who knows?

They probably thought the same!

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Bud

They probably thought the same!

OK,OK so they probably calculated some risk. Like for starters, who uses a warranty? after camping in ...... after 8 years...........