Lithium batteries with Tripplite inverter/converter?

[david@davidfischer.com]

I've got a 2008 Roadtrek Adventurous with two 6 volt house batteries under the hood. I'd like to replace them with one or two 100ah lithium Battle Borns. The tech at Battle Born says that the original TrippLite 750w inverter/converter is compatible with the new lithium batteries. The folks at Triplite are not so sure. Does anyone have experience switching to lithium with a Tripplite 750? Can it be done?
Thanks, Dave

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by david@davidfischer.com

I've got a 2008 Roadtrek Adventurous with two 6 volt house batteries under the hood. I'd like to replace them with one or two 100ah lithium Battle Borns. The tech at Battle Born says that the original TrippLite 750w inverter/converter is compatible with the new lithium batteries. The folks at Triplite are not so sure. Does anyone have experience switching to lithium with a Tripplite 750? Can it be done?
Thanks, Dave

Put me in the "No" category. I had the same Triplite and replaced it when I made a similar upgrade to 2 x 100Ah Renogy Lithium batteries. Only a lithium compatible inverter/charger will properly charge your expensive new batteries and improve their life. Other advantages of ditching the old Tripplite is to get a higher rated and pure sine wave inverter. We can now run our 750W microwave (that actually pulls nearly 1200 watts due to inefficiencies and other draws) from the new inverter which we could not do from the old Tripplite.

You will also need a DC to DC charger between your lithium coach batteries and lead acid enging battery due to their different chemistries. Plus, it will protect your alternator from possible overheating by limiting charging draw for your lithiums. Finally, you'll need a battery monitor since voltage alone might be enough for lead acid batteries, but will not tell you much about state of charge for lithium batteries.

Figure changing out all the above componets to do a proper switch to lithiums. Approximately $3000 for Renogy and $4000 for top of the line Battleborn and Victron components.

[themexicandoctor]

Rowiebowie is correct.

And I am astounded at the $7000 cost.

For that money wouldn't it be smarter to only use Victron components & even their Batteries?

I do know that when I drop kicked the standard oem Tripplite RV612ULH on my Roadtrek 2005 I chose a Magnum MMS1012 Pure Sine Wave inverter because at the time, Victron didnt make a small enough 12 volt unit but I believe that now they do.

Question; why do you feel that you need that large a size & specific type of batteranswer.

Is your present system failing? Have you had it checked out by not just an RV Guy but someone super competent at trouble shooting RV Electrical Systems, ie; an Electrical Engineer.

Perhaps your system simply needs to revitalized & some deficits fixed.

Do you have an interest in adding Solar or a larger Alternator or Dual Alternator system?

Even though so much marketing money is being thrown at Lithium a lot of people in the know (NOT ME), are saying oops, we better slow down, maybe the Lithium route isn't the answer.

[themexicandoctor]

Even though Tripplite is behind the curve for RV needs, I always found their support people patient, honest & deliberate.

I would most certainly believe them over a Lithium Battery Salesman.

With help here, from the Giants amongst us (NOT I), I would most certainly check also with some RV Electrical Engineers as to your needs.

Why Lithium?

Why not AGM?

Are you adding a DC Compressor Fridge, etc?

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

Rowiebowie is correct.

And I am astounded at the $7000 cost.

Well I should have been clearer that the cost was either $3000 or $4000 depending on the brands purchased. I should also have been clearer that this was a do-it-yourself price without paying someone else to install.

I also showed your first line to the wife, since that is a phrase rarely heard in our household.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Well I should have been clearer that the cost was either $3000 or $4000 depending on the brands purchased. I should also have been clearer that this was a do-it-yourself price without paying someone else to install.

I also showed your first line to the wife, since that is a phrase rarely heard in our household.

How about this now that I understand you meant $3000 or $4000;

"I am Underwhelmed at the price ..."

Question; you obviously know far more than I about the ins & outs of RV Electrical Systems.

If money wasn't an issue, would you pick an ALL Victron set up?

ie; BMV712 Smart Meter, MTTP Controller, Batteries.

Is the Renogy battery superior to the Victron?

Is the Renogy battery superior to the Battleborn?*

How would you feel about adding either one of these components to the above system or even to my existing 250 watts of Solar, BMV712 & MTTP 30/100 with two new Lifeline AGM GPL 4CT 6 volt battery bank?

https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-...oring/venus-gx

https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-.../color-control

Or would it be overkill?

As it is, since I discovered the poor negative ground connection & had it rectified, the electrical system & fridge have performed flawlessly.

Then on Friday, I took all of my outside the rig Wiring & Batteries & moved everything, under my bed.

I chose to replace the 2 year old Lifeline 12 volt Batteries even though they performed perfectly on the Capacity Test with two new Lifelines described above because of size requirements. Eliminated at least 80% of the existing cabling runs.

Now its performing even better.

*made in China


-----------------------------------------


And for the original poster, my questions were relevant, all of us including the Giants have been mystified by what is happening behind those Battery Walls.

[markopolo]

The Tripp-Lite would work if you're comfortable with float charging lithium. One of the complaints with the Tripp-Lite and lead acid batteries is that it wouldn't fully charge the lead acid batteries because it exits the absorption phase early. That's not an issue with lithiums.

The Battle Born manual says charging should be 14.2v-14.6v and they permit a float voltage between 13.4V and 13.8V so the Tripp Lite meets those requirements.

I agree with Rowie about using a DC to DC charger to limit and control the voltage and current that gets to the Battle Borns from the alternator.

If your RT uses a Surepower separator then it should be replaced with something more suitable. The higher nominal voltage of the lithiums will keep the separator closed with the lithiums slowly discharging because of the current used by the separator and also draining into the lead acid starter battery. A DC to DC charger could replace the separator.


It's probably worth monitoring the temperature where you plan to put the batteries & get the data before purchasing the new batteries. A sensor & phone app should be able to do it. High heat will damage or shorten the life of lithium batteries.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

If money wasn't an issue, would you pick an ALL Victron set up?
ie; BMV712 Smart Meter, MTTP Controller, Batteries.

Yes. Battleborn and Victron are top of the line products. Had I the interior space for their products, I would have splurged the extra grand.

Is the Renogy battery superior to the Victron?

Not superior, but so far has worked well. Again, my limited interior space and configuration where I wanted to mount the batteries required Renogy products. At least their old batteries which were smaller than Battleborns (which just missed fitting my van by fractions of inches). New Renogy lithiums present the same problem as Battleborns as they've increased the footprint. They've improved the terminals on their newer batteries, but anyone who asks me about the old battery terminals and I will say they are a joke (and not a good one).

How would you feel about adding either one of these components to the above system or even to my existing 250 watts of Solar, BMV712 & MTTP 30/100 with two new Lifeline AGM GPL 4CT 6 volt battery bank?

https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-...oring/venus-gx

https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-.../color-control

Or would it be overkill?

One thing I can definitely recommend from Renogy over Victron is the battery monitor. At half the price ($100), it shows all read-outs on the screen at all times. No need to sit there and scroll to find what your battery status is. So yes, I would consider anything else wasteful overkill.

As it is, since I discovered the poor negative ground connection & had it rectified, the electrical system & fridge have performed flawlessly.

Then on Friday, I took all of my outside the rig Wiring & Batteries & moved everything, under my bed.

I chose to replace the 2 year old Lifeline 12 volt Batteries even though they performed perfectly on the Capacity Test with two new Lifelines described above because of size requirements. Eliminated at least 80% of the existing cabling runs.

Now its performing even better.

Sounds good.

And for the original poster, my questions were relevant, all of us including the Giants have been mystified by what is happening behind those Battery Walls.

See my comments above.

[booster]

I think I have mentioned before that the Renogy monitor per the instructions resets to 100% full based on voltage which can be quite inaccurate depending on charging source voltage and capacity and loads. The Victron sets 100% on voltage and current which is much more accurate and repeatable.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

I think I have mentioned before that the Renogy monitor per the instructions resets to 100% full based on voltage which can be quite inaccurate depending on charging source voltage and capacity and loads. The Victron sets 100% on voltage and current which is much more accurate and repeatable.

That is why it is important the charger has a proper lithium profile and does it's job. I've stated before that you can program the Renogy Monitor voltage setting you want to show 100%, but it is sort of irrelevant. I set mine to 13.8v which is close enough to full charge for all intents and purposes. When plugged in, I periodically observe the charge cycle (via the monitor) that briefly hits 14.6 volts before cutting off assuring me the batteries received a full charge. This takes almost 30 minutes after hitting 13.8v to top off or balance the cells (whatever the batteries and charger do). Within 10-15 minutes the voltage settles to 13.4 before finally resting at 13.3v in my case.

[markopolo]

Rowie - if you happen to be around and observe 14.4V during a charge cycle let us know what the amps in are at that voltage. That will allow a comparison to the Tripp-Lite and will give a good indication of how effective it is for charging a 200Ah or so lithium bank.

[themexicandoctor]

Rowiebowie,

If you are not plugged in but boondocking, how effective is your alternator charging - do you have to run the engine for 30 minutes, etc?

How effective is your solar?

Do you have enough charging source?

Are you a heavy user of dc power?

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Rowie - if you happen to be around and observe 14.4V during a charge cycle let us know what the amps in are at that voltage. That will allow a comparison to the Tripp-Lite and will give a good indication of how effective it is for charging a 200Ah or so lithium bank.

If I recall correctly, my charger maintains full charge (at whatever rate you select between 5 - 65 amps) until just before battery voltage momentarily reaches the 14.6V cutoff.

I'm a little rusty on my Tripplite specs, but I don't recall its' various charge parameters (set by DIP switches), to say if it has a 14.6v cutoff. Even if it did, it's charge perameters all want to maintain some level of charge that is good for lead-acid but not goof for lithium batteries.

That is why a recommend a charger with the proper lithium profile, set it, verify it, then forget it. If I didn't think a charger could do a better job than user-defined settings, I wouldn't buy it.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

Rowiebowie,

If you are not plugged in but boondocking, how effective is your alternator charging - do you have to run the engine for 30 minutes, etc?

I have the factory 165A alternator, so I don't want to over tax it. I use a 40A DC to DC lithium profile charger to ensure that doesn't happen. 40 amps it what it delivers to my lithium batteries. After factoring inefficiency, it probably never pulls more than 50amps from my engine alternator.

How effective is your solar?

Awesome! My 8 year old 20W flexible roof panel delivers a solid .5 to 1 amp in full sun. How the batteries handle all that power, I'm not sure.

Do you have enough charging source?

I find because I usually drive everyday at least 4 hours it is always enough to keep the batteries full. When camped with hookups, I plug in to top them off with my inverter/charger before I leave. My solar is a joke, so I wired it to keep the engine battery trickle-charged. It provides nothing to house battery charging. Also, because I drive daily, I've never actually used the generator to charge the batteries. That would change if I were to boon-dock more than 2 days. However, if running the roof ac, I would have to turn down charging rate to 20-30 amps to no overload the generator. If not running the ac, I can push a full 65 charging amps that my inverter/charger can provide.


Are you a heavy user of dc power?

I don't use a lot of power, but yes, everything is 12v so I rarely have to run my inverter. I actually only turn it on to use the microwave when not plugged in. That way I don't have to fire up the Onan.

See replies above.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

If I recall correctly, my charger maintains full charge (at whatever rate you select between 5 - 65 amps) until just before battery voltage momentarily reaches the 14.6V cutoff.

I'm a little rusty on my Tripplite specs, but I don't recall its' various charge parameters (set by DIP switches), to say if it has a 14.6v cutoff. Even if it did, it's charge perameters all want to maintain some level of charge that is good for lead-acid but not goof for lithium batteries.

That is why a recommend a charger with the proper lithium profile, set it, verify it, then forget it. If I didn't think a charger could do a better job than user-defined settings, I wouldn't buy it.

If that's what happens then there's a chance that the Tripp-Lite would more fully charge 200Ah lithium batteries if starting from 20% SOC or higher. The Tripp-Lite would exit absorption when current drops to 10A. That's assuming the Tripp-Lite always goes into bulk/absorption when plugged in.

---------------------------------------
Lithium profiles vary between charger manufacturers. I looked through some manuals just now:

Sterling: 14.4V bulk/absorption, 13.8V float

Redarc: 14.5V bulk/absorption, 13.6V float

Kisae Abso: selectable 13.9V – 14.4V (0.1Vstep) charge termination based on tail current

Kisae Abso DC/DC: bulk/absorption selectable 13.9-14.6V (0.1V steps), float selectable 13.5-14.2V(0.1V steps)

Mastervolt: 14.25V bulk/absorption, 13.5V float

Renogy 40A DC/DC: bulk/absorption selectable 14.0-14.6V (0.2V steps) no float (charge termination based on volts)

If a charger doesn't have a lithium profile it still might be good/usable for lithium. It needs to go to bulk/absorption when plugged in. If it doesn't then charge times get really extended if the charger goes to a 13.6V phase for example.

I wouldn't want to keep lithium batteries on float and at a high SOC continuously all year long but don't see that a float voltage or power supply mode while the van is in use for part of a week for example as being a problem. No float or PS mode = battery cycling vs the charger supplying loads.

Generally speaking, those who opt for lithium won't plug in all the time so charger float is less of an issue IMO.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If that's what happens then there's a chance that the Tripp-Lite would more fully charge 200Ah lithium batteries if starting from 20% SOC or higher. The Tripp-Lite would exit absorption when current drops to 10A. That's assuming the Tripp-Lite always goes into bulk/absorption when plugged in.

---------------------------------------
Lithium profiles vary between charger manufacturers. I looked through some manuals just now:

Sterling: 14.4V bulk/absorption, 13.8V float

Redarc: 14.5V bulk/absorption, 13.6V float

Kisae Abso: selectable 13.9V – 14.4V (0.1Vstep) charge termination based on tail current

Kisae Abso DC/DC: bulk/absorption selectable 13.9-14.6V (0.1V steps), float selectable 13.5-14.2V(0.1V steps)

Mastervolt: 14.25V bulk/absorption, 13.5V float

Renogy 40A DC/DC: bulk/absorption selectable 14.0-14.6V (0.2V steps) no float (charge termination based on volts)

If a charger doesn't have a lithium profile it still might be good/usable for lithium. It needs to go to bulk/absorption when plugged in. If it doesn't then charge times get really extended if the charger goes to a 13.6V phase for example.

I wouldn't want to keep lithium batteries on float and at a high SOC continuously all year long but don't see that a float voltage or power supply mode while the van is in use for part of a week for example as being a problem. No float or PS mode = battery cycling vs the charger supplying loads.

Generally speaking, those who opt for lithium won't plug in all the time so charger float is less of an issue IMO.

Good points. But when you replace the old 750W modified sine wave Tripplite with a 2000W or greater pure sine wave inverter/charger, you get great improvement in what you can power.

[markopolo]

The quality of PSW inverter power is much better than MSW also.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by markopolo

The quality of PSW inverter power is much better than MSW also.

I forgot to thank you for the specs on the various chargers. Good info.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by markopolo

The quality of PSW inverter power is much better than MSW also.

I too thank you for the details, again its all Doubke Dutch to me but you two are some of the most helpful contributors to the forum.

PS. I don't think anyone would buy a Modified Sine Wave Inverter anymore with the ever more sophisticated technology of RV Components like Fridges, TV's, etc - I do remember putting in a new Stereo rhe first time years ago & whenever the I used the inverter to run something I would get that awful interference.

[jrfaris]

Originally Posted by david@davidfischer.com

Does anyone have experience switching to lithium with a Tripplite 750? Can it be done?
Thanks, Dave

OK, it may not be optimum but it can be done.
About 18 months ago I upgraded my Agile's 6 volt AGM house batteries to Battleborn 12 volt "drop in replacement" batteries before an extended cross country trip. I took Battleborn at it's word and did not upgrade the Tripplite 750 or any other electrical components. The only addition I made was a Thornwave Labs battery monitor. My primary goals were the additional usable capacity associated with Lithium deeper drawdown capability and the flatter voltage profile during discharge. We dry camp frequently for 3-4 days at a time and have seen a substantial reduction in the need to run the generator or engine to recharge.
I do have some concerns regarding the system after reading the comments here so would appreciate any additional suggestions.
1. I have 300 watts of RT installed solar which use a Tracer 3215RN controller. Although BB said it was acceptable, I have noticed that even on sunny days, the highest evening voltage I observe is about 13.3 volts (even with the battery switch off all day). I am wondering if there are newer charge controllers that could improve the solar benefits with the BB batteries.
2. I have noticed some overnight drawdown but am not sure it is excessive. It is typically on the order of 1.2 amps. Is this something that could be improved with a DC-DC charger in lieu of the RT SurePower separator? If so, any suggestions for appropriate models and replacement guidance would be appreciated.
3. While I have considered an inverter charger upgrade, I'd rather not have to upgrade the wiring to support a large capacity increase and am concerned about overtaxing the existing house battery capacity. Would a moderate capacity increase be possible and still achieve the lithium profile and PSW benefits discussed in this thread? If so, any suggested brands/models?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.