Lithium and winter storage

[starrski]

I have had great luck with the GoZero Yeti 1000 portable lithium battery pack.
1000 amp-hour, built-in inverter, solar option. Warranty.
Been using it 2 years, all seasons. And have used it for power at home during a several day power outage and to run power tools, space heater, coffee pot., blender...
I originally bought it to protect sensitive electronic equipment. Now I use it everywhere, and keep it plugged in a wall outlet when not in use so it is always ready to go.

[booster]

Originally Posted by starrski

I have had great luck with the GoZero Yeti 1000 portable lithium battery pack.
1000 amp-hour, built-in inverter, solar option. Warranty.
Been using it 2 years, all seasons. And have used it for power at home during a several day power outage and to run power tools, space heater, coffee pot., blender...
I originally bought it to protect sensitive electronic equipment. Now I use it everywhere, and keep it plugged in a wall outlet when not in use so it is always ready to go.

More like 100 amp hours. Here is from their spec listing.

• Peak Capacity: 1045Wh (10.8V, 96.8Ah)
• Single Cell Equivalent Capacity: 290.44 Ah @ 3.6V

[oilman]

I keep mine plugged in with a battery blanket around the lithium battery although it never gets cold enough here to matter, it's just a precaution.

Last winter in Middlebury Indiana where the Coachmens are made it reached about minus 15 to -20, I was wondering about the dozens of finished units sitting in outside in the lot during this cold snap. Does one deep freeze do damage ?

[Sehc]

LiFePo battery should be discharged to 50% for storage. Unless they are being cycled for use, they should not be on a charger. Never charge if freezing temperature. I agree if the temperature is excessively low, some heating or bring them home.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Sehc

LiFePo battery should be discharged to 50% for storage.

So, how do I accomplish THAT?
Remember to carefully disable my charger at just the right time before my long drive home? Run my A/C for hours in the driveway?

Unless they are being cycled for use, they should not be on a charger. Never charge if freezing temperature. I agree if the temperature is excessively low, some heating or bring them home.

I really, really want to fall in love with Lithium. I am generally a bleeding-edge kind of guy. But, geese, the closer I look, the more I come to appreciate the simple robustness of AGM.

Let's see... 6 Group 31 AGMs would be maybe 420 pounds and give me almost 700Ah. I wonder if I could struggle by with that...?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

So, how do I accomplish THAT?
Remember to carefully disable my charger at just the right time before my long drive home? Run my A/C for hours in the driveway?


I really, really want to fall in love with Lithium. I am generally a bleeding-edge kind of guy. But, geese, the closer I look, the more I come to appreciate the simple robustness of AGM.

Let's see... 6 Group 31 AGMs would be maybe 420 pounds and give me almost 700Ah. I wonder if I could struggle by with that...?

I am with you regarding Lithium, in my case benefits are insufficient to justify costs or managing, still being developed, charging peculiarities. This new Si/Pb technology https://www.gridtential.com/silicon-joule, I think someone posted this earlier, has a promise.

It is lead acid based chemistry with lead electrodes built on silicon wafers with deposited lead instead full lead grid electrodes. Lead acid based batteries are 140 years old and all acquired knowledge will still be applicable with these new batteries.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Sehc

LiFePo battery should be discharged to 50% for storage. Unless they are being cycled for use, they should not be on a charger. Never charge if freezing temperature. I agree if the temperature is excessively low, some heating or bring them home.

That's someone's lab test theoretical recommendation for greatest life and probably is so insignificant that you would be self flagellating yourself with cat of nine tails whip if you tried to adhere to that recommendation. I'm speaking from experience of nearly 5 years now and do that math on cycles. If you have the proper BMS that controls and cuts off charging you can leave them plugged into shore power in storage and keep them 90-99% charged and ready to go.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

Let's see... 6 Group 31 AGMs would be maybe 420 pounds and give me almost 700Ah. I wonder if I could struggle by with that...?

Just for comparison purposes, I plan on using 6 slightly smaller Group 27 profile Lithiumwerks Valence lithium ion phosphate batteries at 254 pounds and 864Ah. However I may reduce the number at 5 at 212 pounds and 720Ah to save weight if I had to. I have to space inside under the bed for the 6 batteries. Weight in keeping the 2500 chassis upfit build under 7,400 pounds is the struggle.

I've also got to get my power hungry mind controlled. I could go to 4 batteries at 169 pounds and 576Ah and probably not miss a beat with the way I use my van considering it will have a more efficient air conditioner (and seldom use) and refrigerator and I will not be tempted to leave my inverter always on since I've abandoned the 120AC electrically operated articulating beds. The air conditioner is a wild card because the Houghton air conditioner's quietness may be an allure to using it more. With the four batteries I still could sit in place about 4 days which I have rarely done without getting up and going mostly in a day or two.

The goal is still the same in never having to plug into shore power and using an all electric propane free van identically the same way with every electrical system at hand whether boon docked or on shore power and without conserving or needing to mind and monitor the systems.

[markopolo]

It would be great to see a capacity test of Davyyd's battery bank to see if it has lost significant capacity or not. Once the pack can no longer deliver 80% of original capacity then it's due for replacement (for lithium life discussions).

The pack has been stored at a high SOC and likely cycled in the upper SOC band most of its life. Those two things aren't good for cell longevity according to lots of internet sources.

If his battery still delivers say 90% or more then it's a clear indication that at least some of the concerns or fears about these batteries are overblown.

I'm in the "store at 50% SOC" or less camp for now but would really like it if that gets proven to be unnecessary.

[Bud]

So when a lithium battery looses amp/watt capacity, what would one see, experience?

Would the voltage not be as high after a full charge? Would the battery die after a higher voltage that normal? What voltage changes would there be with a lithium that is giving up?

[Down Sized]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

I plan to have lithium batteries in my next B-van. The batteries will have some form of heating them when cold. I use my B-van as a second vehicle and park it in my driveway off an alley behind my townhouse. I have electrical power available so when it gets too cold I can always plug into the 30A outlet near the van parking spot. I also plan to have significant solar (400W+), as I have now, to keep the batteries charged when I’m not using the van.

I was told on my 2021 Pleasure-Way to turn the (red key) battery disconnect off when it gets to 32 degrees. Also that you can’t use the generator or hook to shore power because they would charge the batteries. The red key disconnects only the van alternator and the solar panels.

[Rocinante]

Mostly true - keep in mind that the 32-degree requirement applies to the temperature of the batteries, not the temperature of the air.

Also, keep in mind that this requirement from PW is a sad and pathetic way to manage a problem that should, by rights, be managed by a Battery Management System which ought to be part of every Lithium-based battery solution out there. With a proper BMS in place, the BMS will detect temperature and decide whether batteries can be charged or discharged at their current temps. It will also, when necessary, activate a battery warming procedure (heat mats, or some batteries will even heat themselves via controlled discharge) if the system is chilled and could be charged via available energy sources if they were warmer. I continue to be disappointed that a Canadian firm, which makes very nice vans and should be well-versed in these kinds of issues, continues to produce vans whose plumbing systems are completely unprotected from freezing and employ a "big red switch" when there are far better ways to address the "chilly battery" issue.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

...Keep in mind that this requirement from PW is a sad and pathetic way to manage a problem that should, by rights, be managed by a Battery Management System which ought to be part of every Lithium-based battery solution out there... I continue to be disappointed that a Canadian firm, which makes very nice vans and should be well-versed in these kinds of issues, continues to produce vans whose plumbing systems are completely unprotected from freezing and employ a "big red switch" when there are far better ways to address the "chilly battery" issue.

Wow, that's so true. We've got a family friend currently shopping Class B vans. They were quite taken by the Pleasure Way's cabinetry and house build level. But their systems engineering just seems outdated and inadequate.

[ilmor]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

.....that this requirement from PW is a sad and pathetic way to manage a problem that should, by rights, be managed by a Battery Management System which ought to be part of every Lithium-based battery solution out there. With a proper BMS in place, the BMS will detect temperature and decide whether batteries can be charged or discharged at their current temps. It will also, when necessary, activate a battery warming procedure (heat mats, or some batteries will even heat themselves via controlled discharge) if the system is chilled and could be charged via available energy sources if they were warmer. I continue to be disappointed that a Canadian firm, which makes very nice vans and should be well-versed in these kinds of issues, continues to produce vans whose plumbing systems are completely unprotected from freezing and employ a "big red switch" when there are far better ways to address the "chilly battery" issue.

Actually, I'm looking at a Pleasure Way to possible purchase and its systems do all of this. All plumbing is inside (except low point drains are exposed).

[booster]

Originally Posted by ilmor

Actually, I'm looking at a Pleasure Way to possible purchase and its systems do all of this. All plumbing is inside (except low point drains are exposed).

I think we are seeing a bit of disparity in what Pleasure-way systems will do.


I am not up completely on their latest, but they historically have been way behind most others tech wise.


Do you have any literature or such describing the features and capabilities?

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by ilmor

Actually, I'm looking at a Pleasure Way to possible purchase and its systems do all of this. All plumbing is inside (except low point drains are exposed).

No, not all. (as of 2020 Owner Manual)

Rocinante specifically mentioned the desire for the BMS to activate a battery warming procedure. That still appears to be missing in PW units.

Also, from the manual, it's unclear if the BMS will prevent charging at 32F or if it is the van operators responsibility:

WARNING: Do not charge your batteries below 32 degrees F or 0 degrees C. Charging the batteries when below these conditions may cause damage to the lithium cells and shorten the lifespan of the batteries. If you are using your coach in freezing temperatures turn the charge line disconnect switch OFF. This will disconnect the engine alternator and solar panels from charging the coach batteries. The coach batteries will continue to discharge and power your coach as normal in conditions up to-20 C or -4 F.

This warning from the manual seem to indicate that it is the van operators responsibility so maybe it's not automatic:

CAUTION: Turn OFF the charge line disconnect if the vehicle is going to be in storage for a period of time or in sustained freezing conditions without internal heat.

And it seems that you can't plug in if the batteries are below 32F:

Originally Posted by Down Sized

I was told on my 2021 Pleasure-Way to turn the (red key) battery disconnect off when it gets to 32 degrees. Also that you can’t use the generator or hook to shore power because they would charge the batteries. The red key disconnects only the van alternator and the solar panels.

ilmor - let us know if you have other info.

[ilmor]

I am admittedly not an expert in this area, however if you take the time to look at the actual specs for the various components provided with the Trofino electrical systems it appear that turning of that switch should be unnecessary. Is it possible that adding that paragraph is simply "CYA" by Pleasure Way?

Having said all this, however, I'll never be camping in below-freezing temps anyway. During those times my batteries will be stored in a climate-controlled garage. Still, its all very interesting to me and I very much enjoy learning about and playing with all the new tech having been a lead-acid/fossil fuel guy up until now.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ilmor

I am admittedly not an expert in this area, however if you take the time to look at the actual specs for the various components provided with the Trofino electrical systems it appear that turning of that switch should be unnecessary. Is it possible that adding that paragraph is simply "CYA" by Pleasure Way?

Having said all this, however, I'll never be camping in below-freezing temps anyway. During those times my batteries will be stored in a climate-controlled garage. Still, its all very interesting to me and I very much enjoy learning about and playing with all the new tech having been a lead-acid/fossil fuel guy up until now.

The Xantrex charger says it will charge from -4F to 104*F. Lithium should not be charged below the 32*F. It also uses a float voltage on the batteries which is not recommended for lithium. Of course the literature for the charger could be wrong because they didn't list any lithium specs even though it was said to be for lithium also.


The Mastervolt B to B charger also doesn't appear to stop charger at 32*F either per the literature I found, so would be same issue when driving.


All that would be left would be the BMS to protect the batteries, I think, but no specs on that or talk of heaters for the batteries.

[Down Sized]

Originally Posted by avanti

In the last year or so, the tone of discussion concerning lithium battery systems has noticeably shifted from treating them as exotic to thinking of them as routine. I fully understand why one would covet such a system, and they certainly have come a long way. However, I keep tripping over the "winter storage" issue. We store our rig outdoors without access to shore power, which seems to make Li almost a non-starter for us. This applies even to warm climates, since there are few places in CONUS that don't see frigid temperatures at least occasionally. I am not talking about cold-weather charging--that is manageable. I am concerned about storage in very cold conditions.

I am curious what all you folks who are forging ahead with lithium batteries are doing (or planning on doing) about cold weather storage. The alternatives I can think of are:

1) Follow DavyDD's lead and get your rig a cozy indoor home.
2) Limit your storage options to places with power and keep the van heated all winter.
3) Remove your batteries as part of winterization and store them indoors.
4) Get one of the few battery chemistries that don't have freeze-damage issues.
5) Ignore the issue and hope for the best.

So, what are folks doing?

I rented a cozy indoor in central Florida.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Down Sized

I was told on my 2021 Pleasure-Way to turn the (red key) battery disconnect off when it gets to 32 degrees. Also that you can’t use the generator or hook to shore power because they would charge the batteries. The red key disconnects only the van alternator and the solar panels.

Good advice by Pleasure-way if they lack a BMS to automatically control if for you. At 32 deg. F. The batteries will probably be about 42 deg. Internal temperature and well protected. Pleasure-way batteries are also inside the cabin and underway for your personal comfort the cabin temperature will be higher. Lots of belts and suspenders there but they have a primitive system only suitable for traveling in above freezing weather without any confidence or experience in lithium ion battery maintenance.