Lithionics Lithium Battery System

[BBQ]

What do you think?
Is this a good system?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298vB5Ny2GY

[Davydd]

So OEM (and James) availability and not after market, who in the RV world is using Lithionics?

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Davydd

So OEM (and James) availability and not after market, who in the RV world is using Lithionics?

Actually there are sources for these batteries.

https://www.ervsolar.com/Lithionics-Battery

https://www.emarineinc.com/categorie...rine-Batteries

https://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced...ttery-systems/

Don't think any RV manufactures are using them yet. AM Solar is offering a competing battery from Victron-Energy.

The was a long thread on these batteries last year.
http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...epo4-5820.html

[Boxster1971]

Also just noticed that member "wincrasher" installed these batteries as a DIY project last December.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...o4-5820-3.html

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Also just noticed that member "wincrasher" installed these batteries as a DIY project last December.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...o4-5820-3.html

Yep. It's a terrific battery. Although I had to pay for mine.

They did tell me they had some kind of contract with Winnebago. I speculated it was for their off-road Sprinter they debuted at a show last year. Not sure that product will make it to market - so there may not really be any battery contract now.

[mojoman]

Here's a little less expensive 400amp pack:
EVTV Motor Verks Store: MILSPEC 12-400 RUGGEDIZED LIFEPO4 BATTERY, Lithium Battery Cells, milspec12400
DIYer's can save quite a bit by building your own pack, about 50% or more compared to what the dealers charge. My DIY 900ah lithium pack came in under $5k and was easier than wiring a car stereo.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by mojoman

Here's a little less expensive 400amp pack:
EVTV Motor Verks Store: MILSPEC 12-400 RUGGEDIZED LIFEPO4 BATTERY, Lithium Battery Cells, milspec12400
DIYer's can save quite a bit by building your own pack, about 50% or more compared to what the dealers charge. My DIY 900ah lithium pack came in under $5k and was easier than wiring a car stereo.

This is part of their marketing info:

No watering - no maintenance.

You NEVER have to fully charge this battery. It can rest at any state of charge indefinitely without sulfation, crystallization or deterioration of any kind.

No self discharge. With no load, you can leave this battery sit for three
years and come back to find it at EXACTLY the voltage you left it at. Ready to go IMMEDIATELY at the start of your season.

Fast charge - charge this battery at up to 1200 amps in 20 minutes. Whatever charge power you have available, this battery can take it with ease.

No memory effect. No equalization. No float. No maintenance procedures. Ever

Charge it to 14.4v and terminate. That's it. No charge curves..
No battery management system.

HEAVY duty guarded terminals - prevent shorts - EVEN in the case of dramatic accident or collision.
HEAVY duty retractable handles allow easy handling by two people.

Convenient digital voltmeter shows accurate battery voltage at the touch of a button.



No battery management system is now a virtue?

I can't wait to watch a 400ah battery hit with 1200 amps.... maybe from behind a tree.

[BBQ]

.

You can mount a lightning rod on the roof to harness free energy.

[wincrasher]

Lots of junk out there. When you buy a system from a reputable company, you get more than just a pile of parts. Warranty, design, 1st tier parts and a sophisticated BMS. Those things come at a price.

[mojoman]

The folks at EVTV have been doing lithium batteries for years for electric cars and offer very good customer service. They have years of real experience.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by mojoman

The folks at EVTV have been doing lithium batteries for years for electric cars and offer very good customer service. They have years of real experience.

You really want to do business with a company that touts that you can safely use these batteries without a management system and that you can leave them unattended for three years because they experience no self discharge?

[mojoman]

If you would do some research, you would find a lot of folks don't run BMS on their electric car conversions. I don't know what's in their battery but they are comparing lithium batteries to lead batteries in their description. Yes, they will hold a charge for years without a load on them, just as your alkaline or lithium AA or D batteries or even your lithium power tool batteries.
The simple batteries I built for motorcycles, without BMS or any charge regulation are still working going on 7 years. Thats because the charging systems on most motorcycles seldom goes over 14.4v, the batteries are never charged to their full capacity.
I Never charge my lithium batteries to full charge because they will last longer . I just made the pack bigger than what I needed. 900AH turned out to be way more than what I needed but I will probably never wear them out in the next 10-15 years.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by mojoman

If you would do some research, you would find a lot of folks don't run BMS on their electric car conversions. I don't know what's in their battery but they are comparing lithium batteries to lead batteries in their description. Yes, they will hold a charge for years without a load on them, just as your alkaline or lithium AA or D batteries or even your lithium power tool batteries.
The simple batteries I built for motorcycles, without BMS or any charge regulation are still working going on 7 years. Thats because the charging systems on most motorcycles seldom goes over 14.4v, the batteries are never charged to their full capacity.
I Never charge my lithium batteries to full charge because they will last longer . I just made the pack bigger than what I needed. 900AH turned out to be way more than what I needed but I will probably never wear them out in the next 10-15 years.

For openers, my critique isn't directed at you because you clearly have the skills to deal with non-managed lithium batteries.

Electric cars and RVs are dissimilar with respect to their battery environments. Electric cars may provide intermittent regeneration but they don't have dedicated alternators. Their batteries are somewhat protected by the parameters controlled by the shoreside charging unit. When an electric car is operating. the batteries are subjected to discharge and don't have to address the <32F charging constraints.

The RV environment is more complex. Without a management system, the batteries are looking at alternators, converters and solar controllers all of which are operational regardless of temperature or applied voltages. Yanking out AGMs or flooded cell batteries and replacing them with lithium batteries without battery management, or at least changing the charging hardware parameters, IMO, is an invitation to an expensive failure if not full blown melt down. For example, what happens to a lithium battery when subjected to a >16V equalizing charge provided in a lot of multi-stage chargers?

With respect to how long lithiums can be left unattended, there seems to be differences of opinion regarding the duration. The subject vendor unconditionally indicates that this period can be as long as three years without respect to their state of charge during that period. Others advise that unattended lithiums should be left in a partially discharged state. On the other hand, Roadtrek, which warranties their lithiums for six years, voids the warranty if the batteries are left uncharged for lengthy periods without specifying how long that period might be.

[mojoman]

I'm no expert, and I am only skilled with a wrench or a database but after many hours online researching these batteries I came to the conclusion that more is better, You don't have to worry about charging them to max not worry about discharging them too far, they will last longer since you use less of their capacity and never have to fully charge or discharge them. I then realized to be able to have more capacity within my budget, I would have to build my own battery, which turn out to be quite simple and saved me a few thousand$. The hardest part was building the box and mounting it securely. I have multiple automated and programed charging systems: solar, inverter charger,batery to battery charger and a stand alone charger, but I keep them off most of the time because I don't use the capacity I figured, complete overkill on my part. Sort of like having a 150 gl gas tank, you don't worry about it nor keep it full all the time.

[wincrasher]

Well, I have an electric car and the comparisons to how they work to RV's is largely irrelevant.

My car has Lipo batteries for starters, as do all of them. A completely different chemistry than the LiFePO4 batteries in RV's for storage. The car has a liquid cooling system that keeps the batteries within a temp range - so either cooling or heating depending on conditions. It has a battery management system that controls not only charging and maintenance, but regulates discharges and motor outputs. It limits the use of the battery between 10% and 80% SOC. It's pretty sophisticated to say the least. The charging system will take two different voltages and multiple amperage rates. With all this, there is no recorded instance of battery failure nor is there any case of battery degradation - they've been in use since 2011 and have logged millions of miles of road use.

RV storage batteries are pretty dumb in comparison, and probably a lot more forgiving in their use. In my experience, they are pretty tough, but you still want to afford them a certain amount of care. Yes, it's possible to do all that manually. But you only have to screw up once to ruin a very expensive battery bank. In my view a BMS is the absolute minimum - you certainly don't want uneven charging and discharging, nor use them outside of the recommended performance band 10-90% SOC. Second is a charging system that will shut off when you reach the desired SOC, as stay off until you reach a condition that requires recharging. I've found that an integrated charging system, that controls both AC charging and solar, is the way to go.

[mojoman]

I agree, a BMS is an necessity and they protect the bank. They are incorporated in most of these stand alone batteries packs. They will open the circuit when the batteries are out of their parameters. My simple BMS will balance the cells, alarm then open the main circuit at high or low voltage, I also installed temp alarms, and they are all built into the battery, independent of the multiple charging systems.
My lithium cells are rated to handle 3C or 3X their capacity while charging so I would have to come up with a charger that puts out 2700amps before I hurt them, so I don't worry about the charging rate. The maximum of all my charge capabilities totals out to about 395 amps, that would be plugged into shore power, generator running, solar on, and van's alternator. I have 4 different ways of charging them, all programable and turn on automatically when activated.
The main reason I prefer not to have a integrated system is I didn't want to depend on one intergrated control to control them all and have that controller fail.