Lifeline Obsolete?

[themexicandoctor]

In the process of finding out more about Lifeline's Lithium offering (what I already know about their previous offering is classified).

Just sent their Sales/Tech Guru this thread.

I agree with everyone that the differences in weight & charging profiles between AGM & LITHIUM make Lithium the superior choice for most applications & justify the price point.

If I was to revamp my 2 x 220 ah Lifeline 6 Volt Battery system wired in Series tomorrow*, apart from the battery investment, what other hardware would I need?

*if I was to change my batteries to Lithium, it would be Lifeline manufactured product.

[jakegw2]

A few comments here:

Bud: "Is something like a Lifeline battery now obsolete?:" - Yes. AGM will always be around for niche applications, but for RV coach batteries they are now obsolete.

The high charge rates for AGM are only for very short periods of time at very low states of charge. The internal resistance will greatly lower the charge rate to far below what LiFEPo4 will take after a short while. The reason charge rate is a bigger deal for LiFEPo4 is because their internal resistance will happily allow far more current to flow into them then they can safely absorb without overheating. This means they need a charge-limiting BMS. The simplistic BMSs typically have a hard cutoff for current that is higher then the recommended charge rate (so that you can quickly charge your batteries if you really want to at the expense of longevity). To maximize lifespan you need to limit the charge current.

The "limit" however is more than most alternators or chargers can provide if you have even a few LiFEPo4 batteries in your system.

Bottom line: AGM can absorb very high charge currents for a brief time period but LiFEPo4 will actually charge faster in almost any scenario other than something like a 5 minute very high (>>1C) pulse charge from near empty. Since RV charge systems don't have the capability of delivering this type of pulse charge it is irrelevant for us.

[booster]

Originally Posted by jakegw2

A few comments here:

Bud: "Is something like a Lifeline battery now obsolete?:" - Yes. AGM will always be around for niche applications, but for RV coach batteries they are now obsolete.

The high charge rates for AGM are only for very short periods of time at very low states of charge. The internal resistance will greatly lower the charge rate to far below what LiFEPo4 will take after a short while. The reason charge rate is a bigger deal for LiFEPo4 is because their internal resistance will happily allow far more current to flow into them then they can safely absorb without overheating. This means they need a charge-limiting BMS. The simplistic BMSs typically have a hard cutoff for current that is higher then the recommended charge rate (so that you can quickly charge your batteries if you really want to at the expense of longevity). To maximize lifespan you need to limit the charge current.

The "limit" however is more than most alternators or chargers can provide if you have even a few LiFEPo4 batteries in your system.

Bottom line: AGM can absorb very high charge currents for a brief time period but LiFEPo4 will actually charge faster in almost any scenario other than something like a 5 minute very high (>>1C) pulse charge from near empty. Since RV charge systems don't have the capability of delivering this type of pulse charge it is irrelevant for us.

While some of this I would agree with, I think that the idea that lithium is a foolproof solution for all RVs is not reality, especially if you live in the frozen north or winter camp a lot in cold areas. As soon as you need to start being concerned with heaters, their controls, recovery methods from a BMS cold shut down, etc, the metric changes, IMO. The controls needed for lead acid charging well a much less than is needed for lithium at this point, but hopefully this will change as manufacturers improve the automatic chargers to cover more of the peripheral controls internally. Compared to a year ago even, the unknown of how non optimal charging and maintaining is not as important as prices have dropped so that is less of an issue, although lithium is still more expensive initially.



While some lithium systems still tout very high charge rates, many have retreated on that by a whole lot, including Battleborn who now I think is publishing 40 amps per 100ah of capacity which is about the same as we have seen as max for our Lifelines before they start to get to warm. We can charge at 180 amps continuous without issue, so it would take a 450ah battery to take all we can charge continuously. We can do 280 for 20 minutes even for quick recovery, which is OK as the Lifelines don't heat too much in that time, which would take a 700ah Battleborn bank to stay in spec.



Smaller systems with moderate highest amp use can still do just fine down to 20% SOC on AGM with a 200ah bank, which is a typical size for many, but if they stay within charge rate limits of 40 amps per 100ah they are only going to charge faster than AGM in the final 15% of recovery.


At this point, I don't think AGM is dead, and I don't think lithium is completely developed yet, so time will tell how it all splits up. My guess is that a newer technology will come in and displace both, but that may be dreaming on my part.

[Davydd]

I’m approximating but I think in looking at designs and where you can put batteries in a Class B van that 400ah is the break off point between AGM and lithium simply because of weight limitations and space concerns. I know some of the old etrek Roadtreks overcame that break off point but at what sacrifice? People can get by with less than 400ah if they have propane, generators, etc. or have camping habits that can accommodate that, but if they desire no propane all electric and having an electrical system that can supply power over night off grid the same as being on shore power with full use of your electrical systems such as live 120v outlets. The extreme, of course, is running your air conditioner and AGMs won’t cut it.

Older Class B users who have well conditioned habits can resist but once the dealers start promoting the differences to new users, lithium systems will dominate coach batteries.

Lifeline knows. They now have lithium batteries.

[themexicandoctor]

Wish I could share with you the "inside scoop" on the Lifeline Lithium Batteries but it's privileged information.

I can state that the Lithium units they have on offer, for RV Applications are far superior in quality & performance following exhaustive testing & trials than Battleborns & others.

They had to be before Lifeline would put their name on them.

Let me repeat with caps; The Lithium Units, made under the LIFELINE LABEL ARE FAR SUPERIOR to anything made by Battleborn, etc.

In discussion with Lifeline, he said they are only sold to Lifeline clients over their AGM units when a person is dead set to buy Lithium, and, Lithium only.

Like many of the Lithium devotees here.

At the same time, Lifeline are now experiencing former customers from 2 - 4 years previously who switched out their Lifeline AGMs for Lithium from different manufacturers & the real world experience has convinced them that Lifeline AGMs are the way to go.

Lithium has a place but the synopsis from Booster is entirely accurate.

And it appears there may be alternative battery technology arriving that displaces Lithium before the Lithium market matures.

I acknowledge my Gung Ho attitude towards high quality DC Fridge technology versus the old 3 Way Propane standard.

This DC tech is a mature market, especially on boats for 25 plus years plus versus the emerging Lithium Battery technology.

And yet I can see why some Lithium owners are as Gung Ho about their battery choices over Lead Acid & AGM.

The technical I will leave to the Gurus on here.

[HarryN]

I am pretty familiar with the Lifeline AGM and LiFe products.

The Lifeline AGMs are the default AGM battery for the van power systems that I sell and very few AGM batteries can match them.

I have had OEM type discussions with Lifeline on the LiFe batteries. Probably they are fine, but supply chain challenges prevented the program from going forward.

The size 24 Lifeline AGMs still can do things that the size 24 LiFe cannot. That is also true of other brand size 24 LiFe batteries that I looked at.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by HarryN

I am pretty familiar with the Lifeline AGM and LiFe products.

The Lifeline AGMs are the default AGM battery for the van power systems that I sell and very few AGM batteries can match them.

I have had OEM type discussions with Lifeline on the LiFe batteries. Probably they are fine, but supply chain challenges prevented the program from going forward.

The size 24 Lifeline AGMs still can do things that the size 24 LiFe cannot. That is also true of other brand size 24 LiFe batteries that I looked at.

Harry - good to meet you.

Andrew F. & I talk every few months & he has been a pleasure to learn from over the years.

Since you are "an expert who works in the field" and now that "Lifeline has started muddying the waters by releasing a group 24 & 27 Lithium on their website", could you please share & clarify:

1. Both the real world differences between a Lifeline AGM & others available

2. The value of Lifeline AGMs for some applications versus the Lithiums available

3.And how the superior Lifeline Lithium compare to the lesser Battleborns, Renogy, etc without letting the Cat out of the Bag

4. And talk to some of the misconceptions that have appeared just on this short thread alone as I know Andrew chooses not to but does point out to me the inconsistencies.

[markopolo]

Lifeline might be a distributor of Guangdong Superpack Technology Co. Ltd. batteries.

https://www.super-pack.com.cn/rv-hou...or-rv_p86.html

Guangdong Superpack spec sheet:
https://www.super-pack.com.cn/upload...ta%20sheet.pdf

Lifeline spec sheet:
https://321166-984045-raikfcquaxqnco...Spec-Sheet.pdf

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Lifeline might be a distributor of Guangdong Superpack Technology Co. Ltd. batteries.

https://www.super-pack.com.cn/rv-hou...or-rv_p86.html

Guangdong Superpack spec sheet:
https://www.super-pack.com.cn/upload...ta%20sheet.pdf

Lifeline spec sheet:
https://321166-984045-raikfcquaxqnco...Spec-Sheet.pdf

I have an email in to my friend. Will know next few days.

[Bud]

Seems we know now, exact same terminology, model number, etc.

[HarryN]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

Harry - good to meet you.

Andrew F. & I talk every few months & he has been a pleasure to learn from over the years.

Since you are "an expert who works in the field" and now that "Lifeline has started muddying the waters by releasing a group 24 & 27 Lithium on their website", could you please share & clarify:

1. Both the real world differences between a Lifeline AGM & others available

2. The value of Lifeline AGMs for some applications versus the Lithiums available

3.And how the superior Lifeline Lithium compare to the lesser Battleborns, Renogy, etc without letting the Cat out of the Bag

4. And talk to some of the misconceptions that have appeared just on this short thread alone as I know Andrew chooses not to but does point out to me the inconsistencies.

Perhaps you are over selling / hyping my knowledge and capabilities, but I am open to throwing in my 2 cents.

I build and sell a small number of pre-built configurations of power systems that are designed / built / tested.

I also have 2 test stands that are used constantly for testing components, systems, ideas and for powering the off grid shop - using the power system demo units and / or my van.

In addition I have the usual reading material and over the years have hired engineering consultants with expertise in aerospace testing, marine power, and in one case - the former chief electrical designer of a well known military vehicle.

Each of them has contributed to help keep me out of trouble most of the time.

[HarryN]

A typical system design is based on trying to use a component at not more than 50% of it's rated capability - so that also leads to some cost increases / reliability increases in most situation.

For a typical 2 kW inverter + other stuff system, this means a 4 x 100 -hr / size 27 battery pack in a 48 volt configuration. It can be either AGM or LiFe - depending on what is needed and budgeted by the customer.

The mechanical durability of the Lifeline build is very high and useful, but where they really separate from others (for my use) is in the charging rates.

The charge rate capability is so high compared to what is usually available in the typical van power system - that the final charge stages are nearly as high as the bulk charge rates. This is especially true for systems that are mostly solar charged.

For vehicles that will be routinely used in cold (sub freezing) or hot climates (> 110 F), where the battery is not in a moderated temperature environment - IMHO - there is no better choice than a good AGM battery.

Obviously if you want to run battery pack based air conditioning - that requires LiFe or similar.

For most vans, the charge rate of the typical LiFe battery is not any higher than the charge rate of a good AGM battery.

IMHO - the big advantage of LiFe vs AGM is the dramatically better tolerance to partial charging.

[HarryN]

I also offer one product that is based on a 1 kW / 24 volt / size 24 battery pair.

For space reasons, it is designed with 2 size 24s and I view it as a minimalist system. It is the size / format of a full size suitcase. I guess it might not be a minimalist system to others as it is the same capacity as many class C RVs. (1 kW x 2 size 24s).

The setup has multiple chargers in it, so it is possible to push ~ 1.2 kW in and draw ~ 1.2 kW out continuously / cyclically.

At this point, the only AGM battery that can keep up is a Lifeline size 24. Unfortunately, those are now in short supply so it is a supply logistics challenge.

For the past few years I have been attempting to find / qualify a cylindrical cell based, LiFe battery in size 24 as an option. Partly because the 2 size 24s contribute the bulk of the system weight.

At this point, I have not been able to find any rugged / cylindrical cell based LiFe, size 24 commercially available battery in North America that can keep up with these goals (or even close) with at least or better usable capacity. That includes Battle born, Lifeline, etc.

I did find a custom pack maker that can do it, but that goes against my goal of having designs where customers can easily replace all components themselves.

So for that application, I am in the middle of modifying the design to use 2 each, size 27 battle borns as that battery will keep up and it will provide a significant boost in usable capacity. (but less temperature range)

It is a tighter fit than ideal but should all work. Will ship one in December.

[booster]

HarryN, interesting information about Lifeline.



I also have found the Lifeline to have good acceptance. Our 440ah of 4 GPL4CT six volts in 12v array will flash to over 300 amps and settle at 280 when 50% down or more. They will, however start to heat up at that rate which I try to keep under 20*F increase. We can go about 20 minutes at that rate before we get near the 20* increase, which is also where the alternators start to get hot so matches. In our van configuration I have found the 40%C is about the max the batteries will stay under 20* temp increase, or about 180 amps continuous.



I find, however, that the acceptance drops similarly, but a bit better, as other AGMs I have seen do, though. At 180 amps we will start to taper by 60-65% state of charge, very shortly after bulk reaches absorption voltage and levels off. By the end of charge we are charging at only 2 amps per the Lifeline tail/return amp specs to signify fully charged. That tapering section of charging takes a long time, probably 4+ hours most of the time. At our currently set "high" charge rate of 120 amps, we get closer to 70% before it starts to taper and our "low" rate of charging, between 70 and 75%. 20%C is the minimum charge rate Lifeline recommends for deep discharges of 50% or more, so we are right in the ballpark with it all.

[HarryN]

As far as Renogy - I didn't test their batteries as really nothing that I saw of their products met my needs / specs so I didn't really need to keep looking. There is no upside for me to spend the money and time to qual any of their product line for use.

I did make the mistake of allowing a customer to convince me to use one of their solar charge controllers in a build since he already had it. I should have just tossed it, bought a quality charger, and eaten the cost. Would have been easier, cheaper, and performed better.
_______

In theory Victron has quality offerings, but my experience has been that more than 50% of the inverters came in and were DOA or died within 30 days.

Their inverters are supposed to be their brand leaders, but with that track record - and they really are just a far east import product family - I largely designed them completely out.

________

The early days of BB were a bit rough, but they have been improving.

Obviously they aren't up to the capability of a super high end / external BMS based battery pack but for an internal BMS based setup, they are decent.

___________

I looked at the Lifeline offering 6 months ago and was specifically trying to find a size 24 that could meet the rating of a BB size 27 - so it was a tough thing to match.

At that time, it wasn't possible with the electronics shortage issues going on at that time.

I don't have any use for the bluetooth / phone application portion as I already have a WiFi based SOC monitor built into the systems and no phone application is needed. Just a browser.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by Bud

Seems we know now, exact same terminology, model number, etc.

This is what I received from my Contact at Lifeline;

Every lithium battery is manufactured in China. For environmental reasons no one is permitted to manufacture Lithium batteries in the US. There are companies who import lithium cells and other needed materials from China and then assemble them in the US. Even Tesla is merely an assembler of Lithium batteries.

[themexicandoctor]

Forgive me in that I definitely jumped to the defense of Lifeline in such a strident manner but perhaps the same response would be generated if Bud* had used the alternate headings of "Battleborn/Renogy/Trojan/Deka Obsolete ..."

*let me repeat that Bud sometimes is purely provocative

After studying the video it's more of an argument that the higher priced Lithium Manufacturers are under threat by what appears* to be an equally good Lithium Battery with all the features required, at a 50-75% discount.

*no long term studies

I rely on these technical & non-technical threads & you; Guru's, Savants & Sideliners like me, to understand what's Glossy & Hype VERSUS the Real World/Middle of the Night/Under the Rig in the rain with a flashlight & hammer* experiences RV ownership is.

*to each his own skill set

From the dark arts of Battery Maintenance to Fridge Efficiency & everything in between.

These arguments, robust & spirited at times, produce the Diamonds I rely on. Thank you to everyone who participates.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

Forgive me in that I definitely jumped to the defense of Lifeline in such a strident manner but perhaps the same response would be generated if Bud* had used the alternate headings of "Battleborn/Renogy/Trojan/Deka Obsolete ..."

*let me repeat that Bud sometimes is purely provocative

After studying the video it's more of an argument that the higher priced Lithium Manufacturers are under threat by what appears* to be an equally good Lithium Battery with all the features required, at a 50-75% discount.

*no long term studies

I rely on these technical & non-technical threads & you; Guru's, Savants & Sideliners like me, to understand what's Glossy & Hype VERSUS the Real World/Middle of the Night/Under the Rig in the rain with a flashlight & hammer* experiences RV ownership is.

*to each his own skill set

From the dark arts of Battery Maintenance to Fridge Efficiency & everything in between.

These arguments, robust & spirited at times, produce the Diamonds I rely on. Thank you to everyone who participates.

"..if Bud* had used the alternate headings of "Battleborn/Renogy/Trojan/Deka Obsolete ..."

Again that you have misquoted someone. This Thread is:

"Lifeline Obsolete?"

Did you watch the video, the link? If so, it was obvious:

Let's see, a lifeline 100 battery costs not much different than a lithium. This is a Class B, RV forum. Not a US Army Tank forum or ambulance forum. So what are the options:

Very Inexpensive group 24/27 marine deep cycle battery

Inexpensive wet cell golf cart 6 volt battery, maybe best value discussed here on the forum

Inexpensive agm

Very expensive agm battery like lifeline

Inexpensive lithium (about like a lifline) or more expensive with the jury mostly out

This is a Class B RV forum not ambulances and tanks.

And no, lifeline employees do not walk on water. Kind of provocative though.

Bud

[themexicandoctor]

If I misquoted you, my apology.

But the video points to a price point, feature equivalent challenge to existing Lithium Manufacturers ie; $800-1200 units versus $325-400.

Went online & the average price of a 6volt Lifeline 220ah unit was $362 x 2 = $724 in power equivalency (not comparing weight or charging profiles)..

I am not discussing Military or Medical Applications but Class B RVs as the starting point.

And I personally, would not purchase from any other AGM manufacturer even though I know some more technically savvy & knowledgeable owners here are fervent believers in the price point purchase of Deka & Trojan products.

Many owners do prefer the "Jury In" evidence of AGM vs Lithium.

If another manufacturer made an excellent Lithium unitt that was proven long term, I might switch regardless of the up front cost.

Ethically the people I know at Concorde/Lifeline do walk on Water.

Furthermore, so do I ...

It is only proper that I ask you what type of batteries & system you use & why?

After all, I would rather be Wiser than Right & you always have good information.

[themexicandoctor]

My interest in Lifeline has ZERO to do with any benefit to me financially or otherwise.

I came to know them only after learning about them on robust & technical discussions here on this forum.

I now pay full price less delivery.

Learning that they had their office in San Dimas, 2 hours away I drove there & met some of the staff. They allowed me to share with them, posts here that spoke directly to our specific electrical needs & then I had the benefit of being able to hear their arguments & opinions as to why people reached their conclusions & who was right & who was wrong & why.

And these were balanced perspectives regardless of what application or manufacturer was the topic, including Lifeline.

I had a similar, high quality service experience but long distance relationship with Novakool of Canada, of whom I also paid full price.

FYI Battleborn is one hour closer to me in Los Angeles & I have been to their office with peers three times but have not shared the posts because I don't understand Lithium enough, to ask the correct questions.

Hope this clarifies my position.