Isolator, Coach Batteries Issues

[gksmith]

Originally Posted by gksmith

The converter or "Power Center" as the documentation calls it is:
Parallax Power Components Model 7345.

Unfortunately the documentation gives no specifications. The closest is the statement "Your Parallax 7300 series power converter is capable of delivering its full rated output to the battery(s) if needed, but will taper off to a few hundred milliamps when the battery(s) are at full charge."

I found this at Parallax Power Supply - FAQs :
Q: Can I use Gel Cell or AGM batteries with my Parallax converter/charger?
A: There are many people using Gel Cell and AGM batteries with our converters/chargers. We do recommend that the battery manufacturer’s specifications be checked to ensure that the batteries chosen have "float voltage" requirements consistent with the converter output float voltage which is 13.2 - 14.1 VDC. Using a Parallax converter with patented TempAssure capability will enhance the charging function to more effectively charge a Gel Cell or AGM style battery.

This was under current FAQs. But I could not find any archived documentation for the 7345 converter. I do not know if this FAQ applies to older converters.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

I think we need to know what "no resistance" means. If it is truly zero ohms as in shorted, the engine should have run and charged, I would think. If it means no resistance reading because it is infinity, then the symptoms would be more in line, and the diode would be open so no starting battery connection to the alternator. If the circuit is such that the alternator activated, it could go high, as was mentioned.

If the coach diode is functional, while an open engine diode would kill any engine battery connection to the alternator, the alternator would not become unstable. It would be perfectly happy addressing just the coach battery through the intact isolator.

While the ACR separator elegantly corrects the problem, I would not put the diode failure completely out of mind. Unlike the Surepower separators which you indicated do get balky over time, under normal voltage and amperage parameters, these isolator diodes seem to last forever. Remember that the OP reported that at some point in this saga that his ammeter (or maybe the voltmeter?) was pegged.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gksmith

I found this at Parallax Power Supply - FAQs :
Q: Can I use Gel Cell or AGM batteries with my Parallax converter/charger?
A: There are many people using Gel Cell and AGM batteries with our converters/chargers. We do recommend that the battery manufacturer’s specifications be checked to ensure that the batteries chosen have "float voltage" requirements consistent with the converter output float voltage which is 13.2 - 14.1 VDC. Using a Parallax converter with patented TempAssure capability will enhance the charging function to more effectively charge a Gel Cell or AGM style battery.

This was under current FAQs. But I could not find any archived documentation for the 7345 converter. I do not know if this FAQ applies to older converters.

It's not cost effective to spend money on replacement batteries without also replacing the converter/charger with up to date technology. Older Parallax converter/chargers have the dubious reputation of boiling an awful lot of batteries into oblivion. The 7345 has been replaced with model 8345 which at least now employs a multi-stage charger. Here's the link:

8345R Lower Replacement Section for 7345

Although the 8345 is a convenient drop in replacement, I would talk with Randy at Best Converter for his opinion on the best replacement for your installation. He's honest, helpful and knowledgeable.

I'm personally a fan of the Progressive PD9200 series which can be supplied with the capacity of choice from 30 to 80 amps and includes an external pendant that permits you to override the normal charging algorithm if you so desire.

[BBQ]

.

You need a multi-stage charger for acid batteries.

Don't waste your money on new batteries if you don't have a new charger.
It makes a day and night difference.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

If the coach diode is functional, while an open engine diode would kill any engine battery connection to the alternator, the alternator would not become unstable. It would be perfectly happy addressing just the coach battery through the intact isolator.

While the ACR separator elegantly corrects the problem, I would not put the diode failure completely out of mind. Unlike the Surepower separators which you indicated do get balky over time, under normal voltage and amperage parameters, these isolator diodes seem to last forever. Remember that the OP reported that at some point in this saga that his ammeter (or maybe the voltmeter?) was pegged.

It sure could if the tiny 50 amp breaker tripped from a low battery or shorted battery. Besides that, the alternator is not seeing the battery voltage because the diode blocks it, you could get a very large startup hit. Since this is also true on the coach side, it would make a battery reference to the alternator nearly essential for starting. The big hit form a diode failing after running would be the sudden load change, regardless of reference.

The Surepower coil type separators don't get balky, they just quit working.

The OP said the shop saw 27 volts on his alternator. This was after the OP saw all his gauges "move to full left" which is likely that they lost power and probably is when the diode let go. The 27 volts to me means it was running without regulation, for whatever reason (bad reg, bad reference, whatever) He then wound up running on the new battery until it go low, and then they bypassed the isolator. When they bypassed the isolator, the voltage go OK. What probably saved him from frying the van electronics was that the diode blew quickly. On the van side, the breakers probably let go, plus there is not as much to fry there, except maybe a battery or charger (but at least he is on the output side of the charger, and sometimes the charger and engine are on opposite sides of the 12v switch like in older Roadtreks with isolators).

Going to the separator should be painless at this point if things are really running Ok with the isolator jumped out, as the separator uses the stock van side as is with no changes to anything except the extra output to the separator.

[booster]

I would totally agree that a new charger is in order, especially if you go to AGM batteries, which will be less tolerant of over charging than the wet cells are. For two batteries like you have the 45 amp version of the Progressive Dynamics if a common choice, along with the remote pendant so you can manually overide the modes if needed. When swapping out the charger, you may really want to consider adding a battery monitor (Trimetric) to the system, so you truly know what you battery state of charge is all the time, and can see if everything is working correctly. Teamed with the manually controllable PD charger, you can take care of your new batteries very well.

Personally, I would put in the separator and make sure the engine charging is working OK. At that point I would try to make the rest of the trip without doing anything else. Many of the gas frig class b's only had one battery, so you could even disconnect a bad one if you have it and they are 12v batteries. If you drive most every day, or plug in, one battery will likely suffice.

That way you could do a charger, batteries, and monitor all at once, at your leisure, at home.

[Sehc]

I have been retired from the business for many years. The "charging eyes" I remember only showed the water in the cell. If that is the case, do not make any more use of that battery. Bad things can happen when plates are exposed above liquid level.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Sehc

I have been retired from the business for many years. The "charging eyes" I remember only showed the water in the cell. If that is the case, do not make any more use of that battery. Bad things can happen when plates are exposed above liquid level.

They now have both kinds of eyes, water level and state of charge. DW's Japan made, 09, CRV came with a Panasonic battery that actually has both kinds in it. Delivered Oct of 08 and battery is still doing OK.

[gksmith]

Originally Posted by booster

I would totally agree that a new charger is in order, especially if you go to AGM batteries, which will be less tolerant of over charging than the wet cells are. For two batteries like you have the 45 amp version of the Progressive Dynamics if a common choice, along with the remote pendant so you can manually overide the modes if needed. When swapping out the charger, you may really want to consider adding a battery monitor (Trimetric) to the system, so you truly know what you battery state of charge is all the time, and can see if everything is working correctly. Teamed with the manually controllable PD charger, you can take care of your new batteries very well.

Personally, I would put in the separator and make sure the engine charging is working OK. At that point I would try to make the rest of the trip without doing anything else. Many of the gas frig class b's only had one battery, so you could even disconnect a bad one if you have it and they are 12v batteries. If you drive most every day, or plug in, one battery will likely suffice.

That way you could do a charger, batteries, and monitor all at once, at your leisure, at home.

As usual, a response creates new questions. I agree with your suggestion regarding doing the needed items now and save the rest for home. Hopefully the separator and ezRed hydrometer arrives tomorrow (Monday), so I can get that installed and battery condition determined.

My main question is "If I install wet cell batteries, is a new charger really needed?" I recognize that new technologies definitely have advantages, but are the advantages great enough to replace something that is already working? What are the advantages?

And second question, "If I did replace the charger, would it not make more sense to upgrade my current converter/charger to the Parallax new charging section version rather than replacing with a completely different one." Would not the Progressive Dynamics unit entail quite a big of rewiring of lines?

Thanks!

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gksmith

As usual, a response creates new questions. I agree with your suggestion regarding doing the needed items now and save the rest for home. Hopefully the separator and ezRed hydrometer arrives tomorrow (Monday), so I can get that installed and battery condition determined.

My main question is "If I install wet cell batteries, is a new charger really needed?" I recognize that new technologies definitely have advantages, but are the advantages great enough to replace something that is already working? What are the advantages?

And second question, "If I did replace the charger, would it not make more sense to upgrade my current converter/charger to the Parallax new charging section version rather than replacing with a completely different one." Would not the Progressive Dynamics unit entail quite a big of rewiring of lines?

Thanks!

The 7345 charger is a single stage charger that is no longer made. It provides no initial accelerated bulk charging and most of their earlier single stage chargers delivered a 13.8 Volt maintenance which is OK for cold climates, but in temperate and particularly hot climates, it's too high and in the long term results in gassing and and "boiling" of flooded cell batteries and venting of sealed batteries. With flooded cell batteries, adding distilled water before the electrolyte level drops below the level of the plates will mitigate this problem. For sealed batteries there is no corrective recourse.

As previously mentioned, because your battery tray restricts access to the inboard battery, I think your best move is to have the flooded cell engine battery in the front and installing a maintenance free AGM battery for the coach loads in the less accessible rear part of the battery tray.

Whether it makes more sense to make the replacement a newer version of the old charger or to go to a different lower end probably depends on who you ask. For me, the firearms industry hasn't yet made a gun with a barrel big enough to make me put any Parallex product in my coach. I'm sure there are others that disagree. I've gone through a few chargers over the years and have found the Progressive PD9200 series to be a clear winner. In any event, I urge you to touch bases with Randy at Best Converters who probably knows more about the performance and reliability of converter/chargers than anybody else in that business. He sells them all. Put the question to him and you'll be well guided by his opinion.

FWIW, as long as the replacement bottom end physically fits the 7345 space, wiring isn't an issue. The fuse panel is not disturbed, so you're only dealing with a total of five wire connections. Three of them are the 120 Volt hot, neutral and ground connections and the other two are the DC+ and DC- connections.

Terminal voltage is a relatively rough measure of battery status. The modest investment in a Trimetric volt'/amp/power meter suggested by Booster is invaluable for monitoring your battery state, i.e., voltage, amperage currently delivered, amp hours expended and amp hours remaining.

[booster]

I totally agree. You have a single stage charger which doesn't do a very good job on wet cells or agms. Multistage will give better charging, faster, and easier on the batteries. I would go with a PD to get the forcible stages that it will provide. Very few other brands can do that unless you get into the big buck area like Magnum. I would also chose a PD over Parallax for quality, based on second hand information.

Wiring of the PD shouldn't be an issue, there have been lots of that same conversions done by folks.

[gksmith]

As has been the case for the life of this thread, I am impressed with the help given and knowledge expressed! Thanks so much to everyone!

[gksmith]

[Terminal voltage is a relatively rough measure of battery status. The modest investment in a Trimetric volt'/amp/power meter suggested by Booster is invaluable for monitoring your battery state, i.e., voltage, amperage currently delivered, amp hours expended and amp hours remaining.]

Is there a model of the Trimetric meter that you recommend? The ones I find cost almost more than a pair of wet cell batteries. The benefits may be great, but I hope to trade off the coach in 2-3 years. However, I do want reliability in the meantime.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gksmith

[Terminal voltage is a relatively rough measure of battery status. The modest investment in a Trimetric volt'/amp/power meter suggested by Booster is invaluable for monitoring your battery state, i.e., voltage, amperage currently delivered, amp hours expended and amp hours remaining.]

Is there a model of the Trimetric meter that you recommend? The ones I find cost almost more than a pair of wet cell batteries. The benefits may be great, but I hope to trade off the coach in 2-3 years. However, I do want reliability in the meantime.

Trimetric makes only a couple of applicable models. The one I would choose is the TM-2030 -RV which I see available for about $140 which IMO is pretty reasonable for the information the device supplies. But you are right, the cost is similar to the price for a couple of Costco group 24 flooded cells.

In the best of worlds this meter would be supplied during the build to simplify running the signal wires from the meter to the meter shunt which is installed at the ground terminal of the coach battery. Installing this meter aftermarket involves some labor and ingenuity but it's certainly doable.

That said, if your plan is to keep the coach for just a couple of years it's arguable that installing a separator and replacing the batteries will get you up and running just fine without the Trimetric meter.

[BBQ]

.

By the end of the 2 years,
you will have a pretty much brand new RV

you will not want to sell it then.

[gksmith]

It's been several days since last posting and the saga continues. After not receiving the Blue Sea 7622 ACR when expected, I have since learned that shipping from where I ordered is not expected until April 28. Another site states 5 weeks! So I need to go into "emergency mode"!

Here is some more information. I DID receive my ezRed hydrometer, so I can report on my batteries. The one reading 10 volts, with the green eye showed all cells except one having a good charge, BUT the one cell was zero--the float did not move at all. So that battery is now disconnected. All cells in the other battery with the red eye and reading 12.5 volts showed only fair, but consistent, at 12.1. So that battery seems to be usable, but also needs replacement when possible. Now my questions:

1) The defective isolator has been removed. Is it OK to connect my one "fair" coach battery to the alternator and start battery while on the road and then disconnect it at night so that I do not run the risk of accidentally running down the start battery? I could just bolt all three cables (alternator, start battery, and coach battery cables) together in the AM and unbolt in PM. My concern is to not damage the new start battery and new alternator.

2) In addition to the above, would it be better for the alternator and start battery to now replace the two coach batteries? I plan on getting wet cell batteries due to cost. All batteries would then be evenly matched in age and type, but I would be running off the old charger until it was replaced--only a week or two. I am convinced that I need a new charger, but do not want to replace it on the road. In addition, I now know that replacement is not as big of an issue as I thought--I thought it also entailed replacing the AC and DC panels.

3) According to the dimensions of the PDI 6200 series chargers, the 60 Amp version looks like it would fit in my space better than the 45 Amp version. Is there any problem in upping the amps? The cables coming off my coach batteries are quite large--almost the size of my little finger.

This thread will someday come to an end! (I hope!)

[booster]

Originally Posted by gksmith

It's been several days since last posting and the saga continues. After not receiving the Blue Sea 7622 ACR when expected, I have since learned that shipping from where I ordered is not expected until April 28. Another site states 5 weeks! So I need to go into "emergency mode"!

Here is some more information. I DID receive my ezRed hydrometer, so I can report on my batteries. The one reading 10 volts, with the green eye showed all cells except one having a good charge, BUT the one cell was zero--the float did not move at all. So that battery is now disconnected. All cells in the other battery with the red eye and reading 12.5 volts showed only fair, but consistent, at 12.1. So that battery seems to be usable, but also needs replacement when possible. Now my questions:

1) The defective isolator has been removed. Is it OK to connect my one "fair" coach battery to the alternator and start battery while on the road and then disconnect it at night so that I do not run the risk of accidentally running down the start battery? I could just bolt all three cables (alternator, start battery, and coach battery cables) together in the AM and unbolt in PM. My concern is to not damage the new start battery and new alternator.

2) In addition to the above, would it be better for the alternator and start battery to now replace the two coach batteries? I plan on getting wet cell batteries due to cost. All batteries would then be evenly matched in age and type, but I would be running off the old charger until it was replaced--only a week or two. I am convinced that I need a new charger, but do not want to replace it on the road. In addition, I now know that replacement is not as big of an issue as I thought--I thought it also entailed replacing the AC and DC panels.

3) According to the dimensions of the PDI 6200 series chargers, the 60 Amp version looks like it would fit in my space better than the 45 Amp version. Is there any problem in upping the amps? The cables coming off my coach batteries are quite large--almost the size of my little finger.

This thread will someday come to an end! (I hope!)

Yes, you can connect the single coach battery with the staring battery and alternator without issue, as long as you have your voltage under control now, which it sounds like you do. You could go to any auto parts store and get one of these to make the disconnecting easier.

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-ID220S-6...connect+switch

No need to buy batteries now. The new batteries will really like having a new charger and nice separator at the same time later on. You don't want to have your coach batteries match the starting battery exactly. Wet cell, yes, but the starting battery is a different style battery, for the coach you want deep cycle batteries.


60 amp charger should be fine, just make sure you have a least #6 wire to it and to ground, with #4 being even better.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gksmith

It's been several days since last posting and the saga continues. After not receiving the Blue Sea 7622 ACR when expected, I have since learned that shipping from where I ordered is not expected until April 28. Another site states 5 weeks! So I need to go into "emergency mode"!

Here is some more information. I DID receive my ezRed hydrometer, so I can report on my batteries. The one reading 10 volts, with the green eye showed all cells except one having a good charge, BUT the one cell was zero--the float did not move at all. So that battery is now disconnected. All cells in the other battery with the red eye and reading 12.5 volts showed only fair, but consistent, at 12.1. So that battery seems to be usable, but also needs replacement when possible. Now my questions:

1) The defective isolator has been removed. Is it OK to connect my one "fair" coach battery to the alternator and start battery while on the road and then disconnect it at night so that I do not run the risk of accidentally running down the start battery? I could just bolt all three cables (alternator, start battery, and coach battery cables) together in the AM and unbolt in PM. My concern is to not damage the new start battery and new alternator.

2) In addition to the above, would it be better for the alternator and start battery to now replace the two coach batteries? I plan on getting wet cell batteries due to cost. All batteries would then be evenly matched in age and type, but I would be running off the old charger until it was replaced--only a week or two. I am convinced that I need a new charger, but do not want to replace it on the road. In addition, I now know that replacement is not as big of an issue as I thought--I thought it also entailed replacing the AC and DC panels.

3) According to the dimensions of the PDI 6200 series chargers, the 60 Amp version looks like it would fit in my space better than the 45 Amp version. Is there any problem in upping the amps? The cables coming off my coach batteries are quite large--almost the size of my little finger.

This thread will someday come to an end! (I hope!)

1. Yes, that will not cause any alternator problems and separating the working coach battery from the main battery is just manually doing what your isolator normally does automatically.

2. No question that replacement batteries that are in parallel be in the same condition. If you are committed to flooded cells, remember that in your installation, servicing and watering your inboard battery will be a PITA. If I was in your situation, I'd limp back home using the technique you describe in 1. At home I would stumble down to Costco and buy a couple of their deep cycle flooded cell batteries. There is no better bang for the buck. Even if you do this prior to your going home, the single stage charger you have in place will not adversely affect the replacements in the short term and in any event, since you are employing flooded cells, since you can replenish them with distilled water, it isn't really a problem at all.

3. I assume your 6200 reference is to a PD9200 series converter/charger. The physical size of these units almost the same up the 70 watt version. Remember that you are dealing not just with a battery charger, per se. It's a converter/charger that splits its capacity between the house loads and the charger module. If your converter circuit breaker is 15 amps it will support the 70 watt version which I would get as long as the cable from the charger to the batteries is a decent size which should be at least 6 gauge and preferably 4 gauge. Your description of the battery cables seems to indicate 4 gauge or better, but check to see how heavy the cable directly connected to the converter appears. It may transition to a smaller cable than what you are seeing at the battery terminals.

[BBQ]

.

If money is so tight,
you can revive the battery by replacing the acid.
Check youtube video for step-by-step instruction.
I do not recommend this to anybody, because it is a dangerous operation.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

If money is so tight,
you can revive the battery by replacing the acid.
Check youtube video for step-by-step instruction.
I do not recommend this to anybody, because it is a dangerous operation.

It's preferable to revive the acid by replacing the battery.