Hymer's new WATT fuel cell system

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

If I read this correctly you believe that WATT will be as successful as Roadtrek is based on 100% parts and labor warranty with 100% confident in being a leader in fuel cell, love your 100% confidence. Do you own a Roadtrek van?

Nope, don't own any RV
in the process of picking one

I'm starting with the highest warranties to the lowest

as a consumer that has always been a great barometer
of the quality of a product

If I eliminate all the 6 year and 5 year and 3 year warranties
then I'll not buy an RV

any RV manufacturer that offers a 1 year warranty
is really telling me that they don't want to produce a high quality
RV for my consideration.

[avanti]

I am assuming that the relationship between Hymer and Watt is shallow and fleeting. Hymer is their first customer and they will no doubt play it up to the hilt. But there is no reason think that when the dust settles there won't be a dealer network where one could buy just the fuel cell unit.

I certainly would not consider buying a RT just to get this technology.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

Nope, don't own any RV
in the process of picking one

I'm starting with the highest warranties to the lowest

as a consumer that has always been a great barometer
of the quality of a product

If I eliminate all the 6 year and 5 year and 3 year warranties
then I'll not buy an RV

any RV manufacturer that offers a 1 year warranty
is really telling me that they don't want to produce a high quality
RV for my consideration.

I agree that looking at warranties is good for selecting an RV, but, it should be combined with customer reviews how these warranties are honored after sale. Reading small print before contract helps.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I agree that looking at warranties is good for selecting an RV, but, it should be combined with customer reviews how these warranties are honored after sale. Reading small print before contract helps.

True, but I haven't picked up on hoards of RT owners moaning
about warranty work not being honored

I just hope the slocko work Thor produces does not
kill RT/Hymer

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

Nope, don't own any RV
in the process of picking one

I'm starting with the highest warranties to the lowest

as a consumer that has always been a great barometer
of the quality of a product

If I eliminate all the 6 year and 5 year and 3 year warranties
then I'll not buy an RV

any RV manufacturer that offers a 1 year warranty
is really telling me that they don't want to produce a high quality
RV for my consideration.

Hmmm.
In general, that isn't a crazy strategy.

In the case of an RV, I would think again. The whole industry is pretty much amateur hour, and most owners come to understand that an RV warranty has extremely limited value as a practical matter.

The expensive high-tech power systems such as the one we are discussing here are kind of an exception, so I don't mean to overstate the case. But, IMO the length of warranty on a more generic RV is a pretty noisy measure of quality.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by avanti

Hmmm.
In general, that isn't a crazy strategy.

In the case of an RV, I would think again. The whole industry is pretty much amateur hour, and most owners come to understand that an RV warranty has extremely limited value as a practical matter.

The expensive high-tech power systems such as the one we are discussing here are kind of an exception, so I don't mean to overstate the case. But, IMO the length of warranty on a more generic RV is a pretty noisy measure of quality.

I'm a retired Aerospace Engineer
and all my life I lived by standards
and warranties

I can only go with things that have worked well for me in the past

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

I'm a retired Aerospace Engineer
and all my life I lived by standards
and warranties

I can only go with things that have worked well for me in the past

Good luck with that.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

I'm a retired Aerospace Engineer
and all my life I lived by standards
and warranties

I can only go with things that have worked well for me in the past

I am retired too, and after looking for an RV à la previously owned Westfalias and quality of RVs on the market we decided to deep dive into the DIY. It came with the 100% lifetime parts and labor warranty, must be a good quality.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I am retired too, and after looking for an RV à la previously owned Westfalias and quality of RVs on the market we decided to deep dive into the DIY. It came with the 100% lifetime parts and labor warranty, must be a good quality.

The Aerospace industry is probably a bad example of warranties
each airplane that flies MUST, under penalty of Fellony, fly
the same as the day it came off the production line.
no exceptions

That B52 you see flying on the nightly news
was probably manufactured in 1961, 57 years ago
and it MUST fly and act as if it was made yesterday.
So warranties in the Aerospace industry are 100%, 100% of the time

I must confess watching dozens of folks who bought an RV with a 1-year warranty cry in front of the camera when the coach was less than 1 week old
makes me very leery of the entire RV industry
which must have had its beginnings in the carnival market

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

The Aerospace industry is probably a bad example of warranties
each airplane that flies MUST, under penalty of Fellony, fly
the same as the day it came off the production line.
no exceptions

That B52 you see flying on the nightly news
was probably manufactured in 1961, 57 years ago
and it MUST fly and act as if it was made yesterday.
So warranties in the Aerospace industry are 100%, 100% of the time

I must confess watching dozens of folks who bought an RV with a 1-year warranty cry in front of the camera when the coach was less than 1 week old
makes me very leery of the entire RV industry
which must have had its beginnings in the carnival market

You have an interesting view of the Aerospace Industry. The felony comment is just weird. The issue in aerospace is not warranty - it is liability in our litigious society. That kills a lot of innovation in the light aircraft market.

If they built B-vans to aerospace standards they would cost about $1 million each.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

You have an interesting view of the Aerospace Industry. The felony comment is just weird. The issue in aerospace is not warranty - it is liability in our litigious society. That kills a lot of innovation in the light aircraft market.

If they built B-vans to aerospace standards they would cost about $1 million each.

The reason you don't mind flying on a 30-year-old jet
is that it MUST fly as a brand new jet
if anyone anywhere along the way cheats
that is a federal crime and they will go to federal prison

that, of course, does not exist int eh RV world
so the only thing I can see as a guiding light
to buying a rig
is their warranty.

I just find it interesting that the leader of warranties in the RV industry
is taking all the risks

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

The reason you don't mind flying on a 30-year-old jet
is that it MUST fly as a brand new jet
if anyone anywhere along the way cheats
that is a federal crime and they will go to federal prison

that, of course, does not exist int eh RV world
so the only thing I can see as a guiding light
to buying a rig
is their warranty.

I just find it interesting that the leader of warranties in the RV industry
is taking all the risks

My advice for you is to check leadership in honoring warranties to have a complete story of a potentially perceived full glass while not being full. Check out conditions under which Roadtrek would replace Li batteries.

You could limit your frustration with Advanced RV, I have not seen post sale dissatisfaction from them on this forum. Expensive, but so is 100% satisfaction with 100% good warranty coverage with 100% good luck. I have some experience under my belt, but don’t’ remember 100% being used often.

George out.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

that, of course, does not exist int eh RV world
so the only thing I can see as a guiding light
to buying a rig
is their warranty.

What we are trying to tell you is that length of warranty is simply not a suitable measure of quality in the RV world. RT, for example, has the longest warranty in the industry but is widely perceived to be among the worst in terms of initial build quality. Conversely, many very fine units have mediocre warranties.

What you are missing is that warranty decisions are simply a marketing tool. Long warranties cost more than short warranties (all else being equal). So, the manufacturer has the choice of offering a long warranty at a higher price or a shorter warranty at a lower price. This option is available whether the underlying product is wonderful or total junk. They will make decision based upon their perception of (and/or experience with) the market.

It is true that warranties are cheaper for the OEM if the build quality is better, but good build quality costs money, too, so similar tradeoffs apply.

I may have mentioned this before, but: It is not uncommon for EXACTLY THE SAME PRODUCT to be offered at different price points with the only difference being different warranties.

Add to this the aforementioned general amateurishness of the RV industry, and you may begin to see that your strategy is very dubious.

[markopolo]

Avanti explains it well.

Additionally, if / when / a warranty limits your choice of where and who gets the opportunity to do the repair and how long they have control of your RV then it becomes hindrance.

My last visit to an RV dealer for a repair was over 9 years ago now. It was under warranty and it was two small repairs that the dealer did such poor work that I took the unit away from them and completed the repairs myself. They said they could not even source a part that they broke! I managed to source it and get it delivered in less than a week I'm sure.

It was a ridiculous situation. I would have been much better off with no warranty at all. I would have done the repairs myself or had a willing and competent person do them for me.

Basically, pick the coach that suits your needs best. The layout, features and even color scheme would come ahead of warranty considerations for me. If you have the budget for a high tech Advanced RV Class B then by most accounts they take care of their customers.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

My advice for you is to check leadership in honoring warranties to have a complete story of a potentially perceived full glass while not being full. Check out conditions under which Roadtrek would replace Li batteries.

You could limit your frustration with Advanced RV, I have not seen post sale dissatisfaction from them on this forum. Expensive, but so is 100% satisfaction with 100% good warranty coverage with 100% good luck. I have some experience under my belt, but don’t’ remember 100% being used often.

George out.

Roadtrek claims a 6-year warranty on EVERYTHING they add to the Chrysler/Chevy/Ford/Mercedes chassis
I just read their warranty online and it does not limit that in any way

If you are stating they are lying well I've not seen that reported anywhere.

and it is transferable to future owners

but I'm new to the RV market and I guess anything is possible
after watching dozens of folks who just bought their rig
crying the next day when they realized how shoddy their coach was built

I will do my hardest to not be one of those owners

P.S>. Here's RoadTrek's warranty that is on line
ROADTREK’S PEACE OF MIND – 6 YEAR TRANSFERABLE WARRANTY
Every Roadtrek motorhome is backed by our six-year, unlimited – mile / km expressed limited warranty. If any part of your Roadtrek motorhome fails to perform properly within six (6) years from the date of purchase because of faulty workmanship or material supplied by Roadtrek, it will be repaired without charge for either parts or labor. Roadtrek limited six (6) year unlimited mile / km warranty is fully transferable.

I guess fancy lawyers can find a loophole
but it says to me everything is covered that they installed.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

........................ they back everything, every light bulb, every Lithium battery, and now every fuel cell by a 100% parts and labor warranty for 6 long years..................

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

............but it says to me everything is covered that they installed..................

I think the words "in exclusion of any other warranties" in the Roadtrek warranty would be interpreted to mean that if any other warranty exists then the Roadtrek warranty would not apply. Hopefully I'm mistaken and your interpretation is correct.

If you are relying on this warranty as part of your decision making then phone them and ask who provides the warranty for the microwave oven for example and how long is it covered.

If you do call let us know what you find out.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I think the words "in exclusion of any other warranties" in the Roadtrek warranty would be interpreted to mean that if any other warranty exists then the Roadtrek warranty would not apply. Hopefully I'm mistaken and your interpretation is correct.

If you are relying on this warranty as part of your decision making then phone them and ask who provides the warranty for the microwave oven for example and how long is it covered.

If you do call let us know what you find out.

I guess I'll call RoadTrek Monday and find out!

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

I guess I'll call RoadTrek Monday and find out!

I would suggest to start a new thread and leave this one focused on fuel cell as intended by OP.

[Mfturner]

Back to the OT, the Wendlands yesterday said they will not be trying it out in their next unit but that Camp Skunk will. Also it sounded like there are no vans at Pomona with the Watt installed but that you can order a van with the Watt now. Of course Pomona runs another week so things could change.

[Maui Sunset]

I like this YouTube (if it can be published):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naQk7RrWUdI

It basically says that RoadTrek views the fuel cell as a solar cell that works in the background 24/7 producing up to 500 watts (41.66 amp hrs at 12V)
and that they are looking at it as a substitute for some Lithium batteries so instead of 4 batteries you might just need 2, with the 2 removed replaced with the fuel cell.

They said something that did not sound good
that the actual fuel cell lasts just 1,000 hrs of operation
and then a new one must be swapped in

kind of like a water purifier works until it gets clogged up with impurities
then you buy a new filter

I'm getting the feeling that Roadtrek wants folks who live in hot climates, like Florida, to run their A/C 24 hrs a day and not have a generator/alternator run while it's chilling the coach.

The fuel cell generates 45 dB of noise, the same as your laptop so this gizmo is going to sell a lot of stand-alone generators, probably 100 times more than in RVs.

The WATT guys said that a BBQ sized propane tank should last 3 weeks in normal use - that would be fantastic to keep the A/C running 24/7 in Florida