Hymer's new WATT fuel cell system

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

...........................As far as I'm concerned price and warranty are the only potential deal killers.

Agree with these two but would add the third one - fuel restriction. Yellow gooey from LPG or other contaminates could kill the catalyst. It is possible they have replaceable filter to eliminate some metals or organics.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Agree with these two but would add the third one - fuel restriction. Yellow gooey from LPG or other contaminates could kill the catalyst. It is possible they have replaceable filter to eliminate some metals or organics.

We have also had the yellow gooey, although it seemed more like oily, with LP 20# tanks. It appears to come for us if we leave the bottle on to the gas grille in cold weather, and from the local propane guru says, is because the tank breathes in and out of the hose where "STUFF" accumulates. Since we have been shutting off the tank and depressurizing the hose to the grlle, no more issues. An RV install would have similar conditions, so could be worrisome in colder climates.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Agree with these two but would add the third one - fuel restriction. Yellow gooey from LPG or other contaminates could kill the catalyst. It is possible they have replaceable filter to eliminate some metals or organics.

FWIW, the specs call for HD-5 propane, which is ordinary consumer grade.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Agree with these two but would add the third one - fuel restriction. Yellow gooey from LPG or other contaminates could kill the catalyst. It is possible they have replaceable filter to eliminate some metals or organics.

Yes - it has a replaceable fuel filter. The original post video talks about it at 7:40. The filter is good for 1000 hours of use according to the presenter.

[Boxster1971]

This press release from Nov 2017 has more photos of the initial installation.

https://www.wattfuelcell.com/news/wa...l-cell-system/

Interesting stuff and will be available later this year. Watt has already made initial shipments to Roadtrek.

https://www.wattfuelcell.com/news/im...n-hymer-group/

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

I kind of tried to do that in message #14 above:
....

For a partial scenario. How large is your propane tank? I didn't see that info. And your batteries are lithium or AGM? It might factor in because of charge velocity which presumably impacts how long the thing could run on one tank of propane.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

For a partial scenario. How large is your propane tank? I didn't see that info. And your batteries are lithium or AGM? It might factor in because of charge velocity which presumably impacts how long the thing could run on one tank of propane.

Sorry: Propane tank is 9.9gal (42lb).

My battery is 440Ah in 4 AGMs. I think we need more information before we can decide the effect of battery technology on propane consumption. Does throttling down the current production improve or harm efficiency?

The other factor is solar. One would probably want to use it to "top off" an AGM under many conditions.

[InterBlog]

Part of this discussion might come down to the logistics of propane. The vid-makers got it wrong when they proudly declared that propane is universally available (was it Hammill who said this? I can't remember). They obviously don't know very much about markets in remote areas. As one example, depending on whose panties happen to be in what kind of a knot and for what reason, in Nova Scotia propane tank filling may not be available anywhere within an 11-hour round trip from my property. The reason for that was a change in regulations that had unintended impacts upon the RV industry. The retailers have been working diligently to un-do the damage that has been done, but when I last checked, they hadn't been successful in revising the regulations that currently prevent almost all retail outlets from pumping propane.

Faced with anecdotal examples such as that, Hammill or his ilk may respond, "OK, propane is available in MOST areas, then."

But the whole purpose of off-gridding is to GET AWAY from "most areas". I'd bet that NS is not the only sparsely-populated jurisdiction in which panning for gold nuggets might bear more fruit than a hunt for propane.

Anyway, the other issue is how much propane capacity can be reasonably integrated into any given Class B. Our tank is miniscule, holding just 5.5 gallons, and it has to service the stove, water heater, and furnace in addition to any generator that may be present, whether fuel cell or conventional.

Other Class B and C brands have installed larger tanks, sometimes in ways that I would not consider, such as this amateurish mounting job shown below. The reason why our tank is so small is that Airstream wisely chose to tuck it up into the chassis frame where it is protected from impacts, and in order to fit into an available Sprinter void space, it has to be short. It's a bear of a mounting job to install it that way because the bolts have to come up through the floor itself (interior floor).

This way shown below is simpler and easier to mount, but it leaves the tank more exposed (especially given that the emergency vent pipe and other fittings has to stick out from it). Personally I wouldn't do it. I've thought about maybe adding a second propane tank to our rig, but then the question becomes where and how? Certainly not like this.

Pic taken a few months ago at our local MB Sprinter shop of another rig up on a lift.

[hbn7hj]

First we need to have a positive use report from someone that has one, then we need to know the price. Only then is it useful to solve the installation and fuel quantity problems but I confess my mind goes first to install issues before I know if I'm willing to spend for it. I could go to $5k with a positive, non biased, use report.

The major unknown for us is how long the propane cracking catalyst will last. Does it really work at 1000F? I do accept that the unit works and would like to have one. Tieing it in with the hybrid battery system would be perfect-charge the lithium, let lithium charge the lead acid.

[hbn7hj]

Further reading tells me the Solid Oxide Fuel Cell is not a two stage process but one stage and the temperatures involved are 1000F to 2000F. Hopefully we will eventually hear from someone that owns one.

[Maui Sunset]

Roadtrek/Hymer seems to be the cutting edge of the RV industry
that's my observation - I don't own an RV
but have spent 2 months reviewing hundreds of YouTubes
and trying to narrow down the RV that meets our needs

When an RV park tells you to shut down your propane/gasoline/diesel generator at night there is a problem that needs solving

I doubt we will see one in a coach that we wind up buying
but when the leader of technology and the best warranty in the RV industry
says that they are going to replace that noisy generator with a silent fuel cell
I believe they will do it and succeed

and cost
what would you pay to run your A/C on a 90-degree night
when that generator is barred from running?
how much is a good nights sleep worth to your family?

but I'm no RV'er and just guessing

[hbn7hj]

A 500 watt fuel cell has nothing to do with all night A/C. A/C is either generator or shore power except for very expensive battery banks.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

A 500 watt fuel cell has nothing to do with all night A/C. A/C is either generator or shore power except for very expensive battery banks.

I don't know how many watts this fuel cell produces
but adding 500 watts per hour
is better than no A/C
A/Cs don't run every second at night

Fuel cells went to the Moon in 1969
it's about time they power our electrical needs

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Maui Sunset

I don't know how many watts this fuel cell produces
but adding 500 watts per hour
is better than no A/C
A/Cs don't run every second at night

Fuel cells went to the Moon in 1969
it's about time they power our electrical needs

I agree. It has a LOT to do with A/C. If I had this unit combined with my existing 440Ah AGMs, I could run my A/C for at least four hours. That would almost always get us through a hot night comfortably. If this works and is affordable and reliable, it will be a huge step forward.

[VanFan]

Here in Texas, for six months of the year it's too hot to sleep without A/C all night long. Four hours of A/C would not get it done. So I'd have to see twice as much output before this thing would be a game changer for me. Until then, I'll stick with my 600 amp lithium bank and my engine auto-start system. The A/C is loud enough to cover the sound of the engine kicking on by itself in the middle of the night, so I keep right on sleeping.

[davedutah]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I can clearly understand the attractiveness of fuel cells, but this effort of making fuel cell technology successful has a long history, a very long history. Old one was bad but this one is good, and over, and over again. I am not sorry to sound pessimistic, I am pessimistic.

I hate to agree, but, more than 40 years ago, I personally read an article in the Santa Barbara New Press, about how fuel cells were on the verge of replacing internal combustion engines.

It COULD happen. But it has been "imminent" for several decades ...

[avanti]

Originally Posted by davedutah

I hate to agree, but, more than 40 years ago, I personally read an article in the Santa Barbara New Press, about how fuel cells were on the verge of replacing internal combustion engines.

It COULD happen. But it has been "imminent" for several decades ...

Electric cars have been "imminent" since Thomas Edison. But, somehow, after 100 years, they have suddenly become practical. The fact that a problem has not been solved yet tells us exactly NOTHING about whether it will be solved eventually.

[davedutah]

Yep, I think that's what I said.

[Maui Sunset]

Originally Posted by avanti

Electric cars have been "imminent" since Thomas Edison. But, somehow, after 100 years, they have suddenly become practical. The fact that a problem has not been solved yet tells us exactly NOTHING about whether it will be solved eventually.

Millions of internal combustion engines are made each year
every one of those engines is threatened by a fuel cell
which has no moving parts
makes no noise
produces no toxic fumes
generates silent electricity to run electric motors in the wheels

that's probably why startup companies are targets for destruction
by the combustion engine companies

Electric cars are the perfect match for a fuel cell

[davedutah]

Those guys, and their literature, are pretty loose with the facts. There were a lot of imprecise claims made in that video. On the web page, the unit produces 500W, but "Hybrid" 1150W. Elsewhere it says 1000W. Doesn't do much to clarify what the Hybrid 1150 means, though I assume it is acting as a charge controller for the solar panels and combining that in. No explanation for the difference between 1000 and 1150W is stated.

In the video, they talk about how it can raise the battery levels while running the a/c all night. There are a LOT of variables going into such a claim, and I'm very suspicious of it. My single, small a/c consumes 1400W while running. At night there is going to be no additional "hybrid" solar input. Assuming a 50% compressor cycle, 500W is still not going to raise the battery level (but will slow the depletion rate). With even larger and multiple a/c units, what they are saying does not come close to adding up.

It seems like an innovative product, but I hate to see such vague and exaggerated claims that could ultimately lead to dismayed purchasers.