Hymer's new WATT fuel cell system

[Mfturner]

Now that I've seen the full video, it answers some but not all of my questions. No mention of altitude yet, 1500m-2000m is a common design range in Europe, which cuts off a lot of the Co high country. Ignoring solar, its usefulness seems to depend on if you can stay below 12kwh per day, and also how distributed your usage is throughout the 24 hour day. Their argument is that an AC compressor cycles, so it's average draw is the important factor. But Europe is more temporate than the southern US, I suspect that you will need to stay in a temporate climate for your compressor duty cycle to stay below 25%, and you'll be disappointed if you take this to Burning Man. To make the overall cost competitive they plan to reduce total lithium capacity, we'll see how well that works. They made strong claims about solar in the presentation, that doesn't match my experience, but that will depend on your camping style. On the plus side they claimed to be working with Roadtrek for four years on this, so maybe it is well tested.

[ManWonder]

I thought the guy in the video said the cost would be "zero" due to offsetting components that would no longer be needed (i.e.: Onan genny...). In any case, I will believe this when I see it... If true, add my vote to the "game-changers" list.

[Mfturner]

You are right, they did say that, and along with the generator they mentioned something about less battery being needed, so I assumed that to make it net zero a good bit of the savings was coming from less lithium, but they were not clear on that so we'll have to wait and see at Pomona.

[markopolo]

A very functional Onan plus two AGM batteries plus charger could cost $5,000. You could run an air conditioner for months as long as you have fuel.

4 AGM's plus a top tier brand of high capacity inverter/charger might be obtained and installed for $3,000 if you catch a sale. If the Watt Imperium costs $2,000 then you would not exactly match the output capability of the generator powered rig but you'd have a very functional, clean, quiet and perhaps preferable alternative for the same $5,000 outlay.

However, it would not surprise me at all if the cost would be "zero" due to offsetting ends being closer to double or triple the cost of the generator setup.

[booster]

I think there is one other thing that might be able to be put into the equation when figuring net costs and other benefits for the fuel cell.



There is talk of replacing the Onan, but the Onans are already also getting displaced by the use of engine generators through big alternators, and they may also be able to be eliminated if you have a moderate sized source of continuous charging that doesn't quit working at sundown and thus limit your charging ours.


Especially if we are not talking about the big users of power for AC all the time, and 300ah+ per day, a combination of the fuel cell, 100 amps of alternator power from a stock alternator, and AGM batteries would likely balance out very well with use and allow you to not have an Onan, engine generator, solar, or lithium batteries. As long as the fuel cell had enough 24hr capacity to cover your use, you would not run out of power as long as there was enough battery to smooth out the use. The continuous charging would also likely be very good for making AGM batteries last well by getting the totally full regularly. At that point, adding solar could reduce propane use in the fuel cell if you wanted, as it is not a huge cost, but wouldn't be required.


I have had a feeling for a long time that a fossil fuel powered fuel cell might show up and change all the rules, and that time may be quickly approaching.

[GeorgeRa]

Extrapolating possible “what if offsets” is usually a marketing gimmick due to lack of valid points for justification. I can save $700K by getting a B class for $300K instead of a top of the line A-diesel pusher.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Especially if we are not talking about the big users of power for AC all the time, and 300ah+ per day, a combination of the fuel cell, 100 amps of alternator power from a stock alternator, and AGM batteries would likely balance out very well with use and allow you to not have an Onan, engine generator, solar, or lithium batteries. As long as the fuel cell had enough 24hr capacity to cover your use, you would not run out of power as long as there was enough battery to smooth out the use. The continuous charging would also likely be very good for making AGM batteries last well by getting the totally full regularly. At that point, adding solar could reduce propane use in the fuel cell if you wanted, as it is not a huge cost, but wouldn't be required.

This is exactly how I see it. For anyone who sees an Onan as meeting their needs, being an early adopter here makes little sense. But, many of us find conventional gensets to be a last-resort technology at best, for reasons too obvious to mention. The percentage of very-low-hour units one sees on the used market provides evidence of their limited utility. I went to a second engine alternator immediately after I realized that this alternative exists.

I am particularly excited that a fuel cell may allow me to avoid moving to lithium, with all the concomitant costs and temperature-related hassles. A Watt unit would in effect nearly double the capability of my 440Ah AGM battery in terms of how long I could run my A/C, which is by far the worst case consumer in our van. It pushes the A/C running time from "I can live with it" to "all I would typically need". At the other end of the power-consumption spectrum, I am also excited about the prospect of nearly unlimited worry-free unattended refrigerator operation.

I agree that solar would be optional, although I would still want modest solar for battery maintenance during outdoor storage.

I have no idea whether this technology is ready for prime time. But if it proves to be, I am all-in.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Extrapolating possible “what if offsets” is usually a marketing gimmick due to lack of valid points for justification. I can save $700K by getting a B class for $300K instead of a top of the line A-diesel pusher.

...except that that is an apples to oranges comparison. This is not.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

...except that that is an apples to oranges comparison. This is not.

I just used a generic concept of marketing by “what if” justification. Onan is not the only IC based generator, there are some better and less expensive as well regarding apples and oranges. Being directly involved in development of methanol-based cells I have my serious doubts. The last Truma Ve-GA lasted less than 2 years before being pulled abruptly off the market in 2014. It was also powered by LPG. The King was dead and long live the new fuel cell cycle repeats itself.

Hydrogen fuel cells have their future because they are hydrogen based, the necessary chemical required to run fuel cells. Use of LPG or diesel or other hydrocarbons requires their decomposition to hydrogen first before the extracted hydrogen can power the fuel cell. Watt is using high temperature catalytic reaction and a contaminated fuel can kill the catalyst resulting in a complete loss. I believe that hydrogen fuel cells will be successful, perhaps clean methanol, but generic LPG or diesel fuels will stay problematic.

[markopolo]

The absence of an actual product spec sheet is kind of frustrating. Is the 500W continuous rating at 24 volts?

The Truma VeGA had a 20A output at 12V. I wonder if the Watt Imperium is also approx 20A at 12V ? ? ?

Re: repairs, particularly while traveling, longevity, etc. - a single source product availability would create some concerns for me.

[markopolo]

VeGA Fuel Cell, We Hardly Knew You

What happened to the Truma VeGA fuel cell? According to Dr. Kolb, while the cost of production came down considerably, it was still not low enough to attract enough customers and turn a profit. On its website, Truma further elaborates that emerging supply chain issues made it impossible to offer the fuel cell at a reasonable price.

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/21...-cell-experts/

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I just used a generic concept of marketing by “what if” justification. Onan is not the only IC based generator, there are some better and less expensive as well regarding apples and oranges. Being directly involved in development of methanol-based cells I have my serious doubts. The last Truma Ve-GA lasted less than 2 years before being pulled abruptly off the market in 2014. It was also powered by LPG. The King was dead and long live the new fuel cell cycle repeats itself.

Hydrogen fuel cells have their future because they are hydrogen based, the necessary chemical required to run fuel cells. Use of LPG or diesel or other hydrocarbons requires their decomposition to hydrogen first before the extracted hydrogen can power the fuel cell. Watt is using high temperature catalytic reaction and a contaminated fuel can kill the catalyst resulting in a complete loss. I believe that hydrogen fuel cells will be successful, perhaps clean methanol, but generic LPG or diesel fuels will stay problematic.

There are two independent questions being discussed here:

1) Is this a viable product?

2) Stipulating that it IS viable, is it an exciting product?

I have only commented on #2. I have no idea about #1. Time will tell.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

There are two independent questions being discussed here:

1) Is this a viable product?

2) Stipulating that it IS viable, is it an exciting product?

I have only commented on #2. I have no idea about #1. Time will tell.

From my perspective:

re 1. - doubtful
re 2. - as exciting as deadly silent 500W ICE generator

[markopolo]

price / power comparison at $849.99

https://www.costco.com/Champion-DUAL...100284958.html

LPG or gas right out of the box, electric start, 58dB, RV outlet, 2800 watts continuous .......

It's not the greatest fit for a B van but could likely fit in the Onan space in other small RV types.

A 500W to 1000W, electric start, LPG or gas ICE generator, coupled with 4 AGM's and a hybrid inverter would be an effective solution for small RV's.

[Mfturner]

I was just thinking maybe this is the silent low power continuous generator we've been looking for. But it has to be reliable, and in my case useable to about 10k ft or 3000m, and practical in NC in the July to visit family, for me to get really excited.

I had not considered that this might allow agm over lithium, which would make up the cost differential quickly.

[booster]

I don't think anyone mentioned it, but the operating temp is -10 to 40C, so only usable to 15*F. This would indicate that it would need to be in an area that would be heated from inside the van to be able to run in cold weather. This is similar to the lithium issues, but probably not as much hassle as it is not going to leave you sitting in cold shutoff of power like the lithium does, or keep you from charging from shore power or van engine.


Even with a compressor frig and occasional microwave use, we are quite moderate in power use, maybe 60ah per day so 1.5 hours running a day would keep us off grid for about 1/2# propane per day. That would be sweet!

[booster]

I may have missed it, but how does this kind of fuel cell respond to reduced load like it would see as you batteries fill? At 40 amps of output, it would have much more capacity than needed for the last 30% or more of most battery banks. If it continued to use the same amount of fuel at 5 amps as it did at 40 amps, that would be a killer for RVs, I think.

[MobileCabin]

A side comment on this fuel cell. Looking at their info, they say under design operation the Imperium uses a little over .3lb/hr of LPG. Has anyone found out how much water and CO2 is generated? Is there enough to plumb in a seltzer dispenser at the sink?

[markopolo]

That would be useful!

There needs to be an owner manual download so you find out about the maintenance requirements etc.

Some specifics about the actual output voltage are needed.

If the unit has to be inside of a coach can the heat from it be vented direct to the outside in the summer? How much heat is produced? Is it 500 watts of heat?

Obviously the carbon dioxide waste is vented outside. Carbon dioxide can displace the breathable air in confined spaces. I learned about that when there was a report of deaths by suffocation from dry ice in a car.

Is there a chance that it is only 20A at 12V?

I wish all of that info was readily available.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by markopolo

That would be useful!

There needs to be an owner manual download so you find out about the maintenance requirements etc.

Some specifics about the actual output voltage are needed.

If the unit has to be inside of a coach can the heat from it be vented direct to the outside in the summer? How much heat is produced? Is it 500 watts of heat?

Obviously the carbon dioxide waste is vented outside. Carbon dioxide can displace the breathable air in confined spaces. I learned about that when there was a report of deaths by suffocation from dry ice in a car.

Is there a chance that it is only 20A at 12V?

I wish all of that info was readily available.

The 500 watts seems clear. That would be 40A at 12V.

With respect to temperature, it is possible that only the input air needs to meet the temperature requirements. Pumping heated air from the living area into an under-mounted unit would be easy enough. Electric pre-heating for startup would be easy enough in frigid temperatures. It would be self-sustaining after that, I assume.

What I REALLY would like to see is the warranty terms. That will tell us a lot.