Help Finding Disconnect

[KayK]

I have a 2007 Roadtrek 190 Popular. Could anyone point me to a button or switch to disconnect the converter from the engine battery?

[hbn7hj]

Why? The battery connect button next to the water pump button will do it. The connection is through a diode so it should make no difference. I could have misunderstood the question.

[KayK]

I’m on my 3rd alternator and a mechanic suggested that energy drain from converter might be contributing to the problem. I’m also planning on using a solar trickle charger on the battery once I get my van running again.

[booster]

On a 2007 popular 190 I think it could have a diode isolator or a relay separator, depending on when it was built. We had the separator and we also had the new slanted upper 3 windows, new kitchen design, and electronics moved to the passenger side. Those changes may have happened all at the same time, but maybe were phased in. A good indicator may be that the furnace also moved to the front with the electronics move.


Losing 3 alternators is odd and doesn't happen very often unless the second and third were poor quality rebuilt or bottom line cost Asian import new units. Failure rates on both of those replacements can be very high, from what I have seen and heard.


I think we need to start with finding out if it is separator or isolator so maybe a pic of the upper section of the firewall above the rear of the engine could be posted so we can look.


There would have to be very, very high loads to fail 3 good quality alternators in a short time, so it is more likely there is some wiring or other issue involved that is damaging them.

[hbn7hj]

I’m not knowledgable on what kills alternators but the scenario of the converter killing the alternator is not likely to me.

First the converter has to create a voltage spike of some magnitude and second a defective isolator has to pass it on to the alternator. Were that the case you would have other electronic failures in your 12 volt system. Your mechanic should be able to check the isolator. if you want to and have a voltmeter let us know. There may even be a Youtube video on it.

Three alternators is a considerable expense. I expect the fault is elsewhere.

[KayK]

That is very helpful information Will definitely check on quality of these alternators (last 2 on warranty) and will send a picture of the top back of the engine where the converter is. Leaving on a little vacation (in the car since my much loved van was towed to the shop) but will handle next week. Thank you so much for helping me with this!

[hbn7hj]

The converter is under the power panel where the fuses and circuit breakers are located. Booster wants to take a look at the isolator or separator on the firewall.

I, too, would rather travel in a functioning Roadtrek than a car!

To keep your mechanic happy you can keep the converter circuit breaker off, it should be labeled. The converter only works when you are plugged in to shore power or the generator is running.

Basically the converter has nothing to do with the alternator and you may need another mechanic. He should know that. You can keep it off and see if the alternator continues to fail.

[michaelingp]

Originally Posted by KayK

That is very helpful information Will definitely check on quality of these alternators (last 2 on warranty) and will send a picture of the top back of the engine where the converter is. Leaving on a little vacation (in the car since my much loved van was towed to the shop) but will handle next week. Thank you so much for helping me with this!

Agree with the new mechanic suggestion. As mentioned before, the converter is only very loosely connected to the engine battery. The converter is the device that converts shore power (120V) to the 12V system in your van, and also charges the van battery when on shore power. This kind of problem (that only happens after a lot of time passes) can be very difficult to solve, but the first step would be to clamp on an amp meter on the output from the alternator, and see what it measures under a variety of different scenarios. It would help if you could get the mechanic to explain "energy drain from the converter" since either he doesn't know the system well, or something has been lost in the translation. If the converter is indeed somehow putting a load on the alternator (I'd say extremely unlikely if everything else seems to be working fine), than the test with the amp meter should show it.

[jjrbus]

Back in the day new parts were high quality and a failed one was rare. Today is a very different story. There are even credible warnings about counterfeit parts being sold on the net.

https://www.gmparts.com/counterfeit-parts

[KayK]

I took pictures of the isolator but I can’t figure out how to get them into this message. Using an Apple IPhone so not sure how a URL is created for that! Mechanic is replacing alternator (it’s under warranty)but I know there has to be other problem(s).

[jjrbus]

After thought, alternator is shot, needs to be replaced. Would knowing what is shot/bad/broken be a clue as to what is causing the problem? I have not had a starter or alternator go bad in years and last time took one to a auto electric shop that specializes in starter and alternator repair.

A genuine GM re-manufactured alternator is in the $200 range so might be worth a visit to the electric shop to get redone. VS a new $80 part from the box store. I quit remanufactured parts from the internet or box stores long time ago as the quality was so bad.

[michaelingp]

This reminds me of long ago the starter motor in my Honda went bad. A new OEM starter was many hundreds of dollars, but a starter (new, not rebuilt) was like $70 at Advanced Auto. So I installed the cheapo myself, and sure enough, a year later it died. I took the car to a "real" electric shop, with instructions to find a middle ground, not a cheapo, but not necessarily the OEM. They installed a brand they said they had a lot of good luck with, and it lasted many years until I sold the car. I would look for that middle ground. A good shop wants you to be happy, so they will install a quality device.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by michaelingp

This reminds me of long ago the starter motor in my Honda went bad. A new OEM starter was many hundreds of dollars, but a starter (new, not rebuilt) was like $70 at Advanced Auto. So I installed the cheapo myself, and sure enough, a year later it died. I took the car to a "real" electric shop, with instructions to find a middle ground, not a cheapo, but not necessarily the OEM. They installed a brand they said they had a lot of good luck with, and it lasted many years until I sold the car. I would look for that middle ground. A good shop wants you to be happy, so they will install a quality device.

Best alternator/starter fix is to see if your town has a shop that rebuilds them. Read reviews on the shop to make sure they are good. A good rebuilt OEM unit is way better than any cheap aftermarket unit.

[booster]

The whole world of replacement parts has gone wildly off the traditional history of the past.

My summer daily driver car is a 1996 Buick that had very good care, it appears, as all the parts that might have been replaced are GM original part numbered ones. The only non OEM I found was an intake manifold gasket.

Many of the parts are likely 27 year old originals based on appearance but may be newer. Very hard to tell because most don't have date codes on them. As part of my multiyear restoration of the car to a reliable driver I opted to replace typical failure point parts. A lot of the sensors and such were still available as GM originals, and even some of the bearings which tend to be very poor in the aftermarket sometimes.

What I did wind up with, though, were some items that GM originals weren't available any more. Primarily the alternator, starter and AC compressor. In the past the AC Delco parts were mostly made in the same plants as GM originals and for the alternators and starters that was in Mexico in the nearer past and USA further back. By all accounts I have seen, both sources made very good parts. Delphi was also often the same as GM original but not as reliably as AC Delco was.

I ordered an AC Delco alternator and an AC Delco starter that were both touted as "made in USA", totally expecting them to be the Mexican models as they have been in the past. What I got were both of the items were made in China and were not based on original GM tooling designs as the castings were lighter weight and carried no GM casting numbers on them. Same thing on the AC compressor. Most of the reviews show similar ratings for the Delco and Delphi parts on all the items so they may be the same ones in different boxes. The Delco is higher cost though.

We know that OEM alternators last pretty well these days, even though abused more with all the power cars use now, and we also know many of them are Asian built. We also know that aftermarket Asian parts tend to be of very low quality a lot of the time.

The big question I had, and still have, is what internal parts are in the items I got inside them? The units could come from the same factories as OEM units and carry the OEM quality internals, or they could have the lower quality aftermarket parts in them. I think this is a big question for all of us as buying expensive Delco replacement parts may, or may not, be getting us any real benefit by paying twice as much for them.

Since the units of all three that are in the car look to be GM OEM units or replacements and all are still functioning fine, but I don't know how old or how many miles are on them. It could be anything between 10 and 27 years old anywhere up to 143K miles. I decided that I will pull out and replace all three with the new units, doing the alternator and starter right away and the AC compressor if it ever needs a recharge, which it probably will. I have done the alternator and the new one is performing well, smooth and quiet, a bit better voltage control than the original. The starter is a bunch more work and I will be doing that soon.

As Peteco mentioned, rebuilt OEM units in alternators and starters tend to be much better than cheap new units, if the rebuild is done by a good shop with OEM quality parts (if they can even get the parts any more). I think I have found a good shop to do the rebuilds and will take them in when I have both out and cleaned up some to look for damage. If they are in good shape, which is likely, I will have them rebuilt if the shop can get good parts and sounds like the can do good job when I see the place in person. You can pretty easily get to several hundred dollars on rebuilds if you have all the common failure parts replaced. By the time you put in diodes, brushes and holder, regulator, and bearings with high quality parts, the performance and reliability should be very good.

I may carry the OEM rebuilds as spares or put them in and carry the new ones, but not decided yet. I also am packing up a box with all the still OK sensors and such to carry also. Some stuff I could fix on the road pretty easily, but stuff that is more work would mean finding a shop to do it, which isn't too tough for a mid-old vehicle like the Buick. But the parts can wind up being the hangup so might as well bring the spares as the big Roadmaster wagon has huge under floor storage area in the rear cargo area, where the third row seat would be if it had one.

I would encourage everyone to consider keeping parts that get replaced like a starter or alternator if they are OEM so you can get them rebuilt at a good place. The shops will probably want to keep them because they can sell them as cores to the mass rebuilders, but probably worth keeping if OEM even if you have to pay them the core charge. I have seen core charges on the OEM alternators like in the Buick in the $100 range so they must be getting hard for the rebuilders to find.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by booster

The whole world of replacement parts has gone wildly off the traditional history of the past.

My summer daily driver car is a 1996 Buick that had very good care, it appears, as all the parts that might have been replaced are GM original part numbered ones. The only non OEM I found was an intake manifold gasket.

Many of the parts are likely 27 year old originals based on appearance but may be newer. Very hard to tell because most don't have date codes on them. As part of my multiyear restoration of the car to a reliable driver I opted to replace typical failure point parts. A lot of the sensors and such were still available as GM originals, and even some of the bearings which tend to be very poor in the aftermarket sometimes.

What I did wind up with, though, were some items that GM originals weren't available any more. Primarily the alternator, starter and AC compressor. In the past the AC Delco parts were mostly made in the same plants as GM originals and for the alternators and starters that was in Mexico in the nearer past and USA further back. By all accounts I have seen, both sources made very good parts. Delphi was also often the same as GM original but not as reliably as AC Delco was.

I ordered an AC Delco alternator and an AC Delco starter that were both touted as "made in USA", totally expecting them to be the Mexican models as they have been in the past. What I got were both of the items were made in China and were not based on original GM tooling designs as the castings were lighter weight and carried no GM casting numbers on them. Same thing on the AC compressor. Most of the reviews show similar ratings for the Delco and Delphi parts on all the items so they may be the same ones in different boxes. The Delco is higher cost though.

We know that OEM alternators last pretty well these days, even though abused more with all the power cars use now, and we also know many of them are Asian built. We also know that aftermarket Asian parts tend to be of very low quality a lot of the time.

The big question I had, and still have, is what internal parts are in the items I got inside them? The units could come from the same factories as OEM units and carry the OEM quality internals, or they could have the lower quality aftermarket parts in them. I think this is a big question for all of us as buying expensive Delco replacement parts may, or may not, be getting us any real benefit by paying twice as much for them.

Since the units of all three that are in the car look to be GM OEM units or replacements and all are still functioning fine, but I don't know how old or how many miles are on them. It could be anything between 10 and 27 years old anywhere up to 143K miles. I decided that I will pull out and replace all three with the new units, doing the alternator and starter right away and the AC compressor if it ever needs a recharge, which it probably will. I have done the alternator and the new one is performing well, smooth and quiet, a bit better voltage control than the original. The starter is a bunch more work and I will be doing that soon.

As Peteco mentioned, rebuilt OEM units in alternators and starters tend to be much better than cheap new units, if the rebuild is done by a good shop with OEM quality parts (if they can even get the parts any more). I think I have found a good shop to do the rebuilds and will take them in when I have both out and cleaned up some to look for damage. If they are in good shape, which is likely, I will have them rebuilt if the shop can get good parts and sounds like the can do good job when I see the place in person. You can pretty easily get to several hundred dollars on rebuilds if you have all the common failure parts replaced. By the time you put in diodes, brushes and holder, regulator, and bearings with high quality parts, the performance and reliability should be very good.

I may carry the OEM rebuilds as spares or put them in and carry the new ones, but not decided .

Another option: do not rebuild the OEMs as they may be better than having them rebuilt. Perhaps keep using them and carry the new ones as spares. Then rebuild if they fail.

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

Another option: do not rebuild the OEMs as they may be better than having them rebuilt. Perhaps keep using them and carry the new ones as spares. Then rebuild if they fail.

That is one of the options on the table that will be decided on when I get to the shop to talk to them. It will mostly depend on whether or not they can get the OEM quality parts to rebuild them. If they can't get the parts I probably would just have them put in brushes and bearings which should both be available in good parts but leave the OEM diodes and regulator in place. I think the Buick alternator from 1996 is very much like the 6.0 Chevy our 07 van came with except for a bit more capacity and a different voltage regulator profile in the van. Casting may even be the same. The van currently has two DC Power/Nations alternators in it a 250 amp and a 270 amp.



The other option would be to get DC Power Engineering alternator for it where they use the hairpin winding and all good parts to make them.

[GeorgeRa]

A couple of years ago the starter on our 2015 Honda Accord started to intermittently fail. Based on my talks with Honda shop folks Honda Accord had a design issue with starter but no recall. A factory rebuild was about $800 and new one was $1100 and according to shop folks these were verbatim the same as original. Chinese unit on Amazon was $72 with some comments that the original issue was designed out. I went for the Chinese one plus installation and it works very well since, invisible.

I remember days when “don’t buy Japanese junk” was a norm", then Korean cars were considered junk, then Chinese, now China captured Li-Ion and is leading Na-Ion batteries (CATL).

https://thedriven.io/2023/04/20/chin...ocal%20reports.

https://www.cheryinternational.com/

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

A couple of years ago the starter on our 2015 Honda Accord started to intermittently fail. Based on my talks with Honda shop folks Honda Accord had a design issue with starter but no recall. A factory rebuild was about $800 and new one was $1100 and according to shop folks these were verbatim the same as original. Chinese unit on Amazon was $72 with some comments that the original issue was designed out. I went for the Chinese one plus installation and it works very well since, invisible.

I remember days when “don’t buy Japanese junk” was a norm", then Korean cars were considered junk, then Chinese, now China captured Li-Ion and is leading Na-Ion batteries (CATL).

https://thedriven.io/2023/04/20/chin...ocal%20reports.

https://www.cheryinternational.com/

I think you got pretty lucky on that one, but of course but of course there are some sellers of decent stuff from all parts of Asia. Honda parts are crazy expensive so alternatives of any type deserve a look, but $1100 vs $72 is really an extreme difference.


China has been interesting place over the past 10-20 years, I think. In the further past they make plenty of terrible quality but incredibly cheap stuff but then over time started to improve quality and move upscale in their products. By 10 years ago a lot things from China were getting to be much better, especially if they had foreign buyers of their products that had on site quality inspectors. At the place I worked back then we bought quite a bit from China and Taiwan along with a long association with a high end manufacturer in Japan. I was to Asia quite a few times over a 5 year time frame when I was doing factory audits and/or troubleshooting.


Things started to go south for a lot of companies over there after 2010, I think as price pressure and rising labor costs started to make them start to cut corners to stay competitive with other even lower cost countries. Quality is probably substantially lower overall now than in 2010 from China on a lot of products, which is too bad.


As with all things, it is buyer beware and if you choose to accept a bit of risk to save money, many times it works out OK, sometimes not so good.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

I think you got pretty lucky on that one, but of course but of course there are some sellers of decent stuff from all parts of Asia. Honda parts are crazy expensive so alternatives of any type deserve a look, but $1100 vs $72 is really an extreme difference.


China has been interesting place over the past 10-20 years, I think. In the further past they make plenty of terrible quality but incredibly cheap stuff but then over time started to improve quality and move upscale in their products. By 10 years ago a lot things from China were getting to be much better, especially if they had foreign buyers of their products that had on site quality inspectors. At the place I worked back then we bought quite a bit from China and Taiwan along with a long association with a high end manufacturer in Japan. I was to Asia quite a few times over a 5 year time frame when I was doing factory audits and/or troubleshooting.


Things started to go south for a lot of companies over there after 2010, I think as price pressure and rising labor costs started to make them start to cut corners to stay competitive with other even lower cost countries. Quality is probably substantially lower overall now than in 2010 from China on a lot of products, which is too bad.


As with all things, it is buyer beware and if you choose to accept a bit of risk to save money, many times it works out OK, sometimes not so good.

I retired in 2007 and since have much less contact in the corporate world. Both factory and Amazon starters casts look extremely similar. The major difference was in the plastic mold housing electrical contacts. It is possible this Amazon unit was built in the same factory building Honda units. Key issue was contact reliability, click but no turn.

My personal experience with products manufactured in China is rather good. Very recently I purchased Sony prosumer lens made in China and its performance is superior to my old Zeiss. I am certain that variability of quality varies highly within such as large population of China.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I retired in 2007 and since have much less contact in the corporate world. Both factory and Amazon starters casts look extremely similar. The major difference was in the plastic mold housing electrical contacts. It is possible this Amazon unit was built in the same factory building Honda units. Key issue was contact reliability, click but no turn.

My personal experience with products manufactured in China is rather good. Very recently I purchased Sony prosumer lens made in China and its performance is superior to my old Zeiss. I am certain that variability of quality varies highly within such as large population of China.

I have to agree that it varies, a lot.



I think that when you have a high end company like Honda or Sony riding heard on the production the products come out a lot better without all the cheating on quality to save a buck.


That said, I bought a Fluke multimeter about 10 years ago that was made in China (unknown to me when I got it) and after 10 years of use it much less capable and accurate the the 20+ year old Fluke US built one that has a damaged display but otherwise still works very well and has been through he!! and back over the years as I used it at work and at home.



Fluke is a great company with some fantastic products, but trying to cost reduce one of their lines of meters to get more market share is probably not a good idea when you are selling based on a decades long reputation for being the best out their. To then have them not monitor close enough to make sure that the meters were up to their reputation is certainly a stain on that reputation.