Generator is Making Me Crazy

[Flatfoot]

Hello all! I need help. We have a 2014 Pleasureway Ascent with an Onan 2.5 kw propane generator on board.
Recently, it started exhibiting the following behavior: When completely cold it will immediately start, run perfectly for 2-8 minutes, start surging, sometimes backfire once or twice and then die. It then will not re-start until it cools off completely.
I just spent about $1900 on it at an Onan dealer’s repair shop trying to fix the problem. They told me it runs fine on the bench. They thought the solonoid on my propane tank was bad so I had it replaced (another $450) at the Class B dealership where I bought the coach originally - no change. They also tested the regulator and said it appears to be fine. For what it’s worth, all other propane appliances have consistently worked fine, before and after the solonoid replacement.
I am truly at my wit’s end with this. Any ideas?

[tlillard23]

replace the regulator, or verify pressure - it's a $35? part that should have been replaced when they had it apart.
take it back and show the onan place what their $1900 is worth and have them troubleshoot in the rig.
Drop the generator and see if it actually runs when not in the coach.
see if the choke or some part of the throttle is hanging up when installed (not likely).
check exhaust for obstructions.
just guessing....
I'd take it back to the $1800 repair shop and ask them what is the difference between bench and installed.

[hbn7hj]

There is a choke on the LP generator that is probably temperature controlled in some way.

You can manually operate the choke. Do that and see if you can keep it running. If you can do that then the problem is with the choke. It does sound like it is not releasing when warm.

Here is a video to show you how to do that.
https://youtu.be/pmrSYhydtjg

Just a guess.

[InterBlog]

OP, you said they tested your regulator but you did not say WHICH regulator.

There are two - one immediately downstream of your propane tank, and the other mounted on the generator itself.

Nobody worries much about the smaller regulator at the propane tank - when they die (and you can set your watch by them doing so), they just get replaced. They are not expensive.

Fewer people seem to understand about the regulator in the generator itself. In the vid below, it’s that new-looking round part on top with the orange and white label. It is larger and more expensive.

People sometimes ask, “Why the freak would there need to be a separate regulator?!”

Safety and redundancy, I suspect. Because someone could hook up their generator to an unregulated supply - directly to a portable propane source for instance - and that could cause problems.

Anyway, the symptoms you describe are loosely consistent with two possible root causes that tend to get worse over time:

(1) Failure of the onboard regulator due to age. There’s a flexible membrane inside that onboard regulator. That thing will get stiff and eventually crumble with age. As it does so, it will result in increasingly bad behavior on the part of the generator.

(2) A sneak internal hose breach leading to the incursion of air and the resulting mixture becoming periodically and erratically too lean. See all the dark, shiny hoses inside the 2500 LP generator in this short video below? They are replacement hoses sold in a kit by Cummins (sorry I don’t have a part number - my mechanic ordered it for me). They sell this convenient kit because hose end-of-life is an inevitable problem for everyone. Your generator is newer and may not look exactly like this, but ironically, newer generators tend to have worse problems with hose breaching (per anecdotal reports on Air Forums). Hoses, too, get brittle with age, and tiny splits may form that are difficult to see with the naked eye.

Replace both components along with the air filter and of course do an oil change, and then see if you still have the same operational problem.

11-second video of my generator. I just got done with the maintenance I described above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4o5eupTwJ0

[InterBlog]

PS on what I said above. Soapbox time, but this word-to-the-wise needs to be said out loud:

Consult the forums first, BEFORE you engage contractors, especially contractors that are charging well over a hundred bucks an hour. Nobody should be forced to spend as much money as this OP has on a wild goose chase - it sickens me.

I realize that forums have a dubious history of discouraging preemptive questions. A lot of techies don’t respect people who come on and say “My generator won’t work” and who apparently haven’t taken initiative to solve it themselves prior to “bothering” the forum.

But here’s the problem with that kind of response.

Many of us are driving highly-aged Class Bs that are going to develop ALL KINDS of exotic failure pathways that are virtually impossible to predict. My rig is now 17 years old!! It is INVENTING NEW WAYS to fail at this point in its lifespan. I am a tech-savvy girl, and I never run down any new issue without first checking with the forums. If you frame your question in the right way, you will annoy the resident techies less. For instance, “I am about to embark on a generator troubleshoot - does anyone have any words of wisdom for me or recent lessons learned?”

Answer in this case would have been, “Oh hell yes - there are two known problem components in that thing that you might want to check before you go diving into any other pathway of inquiry. And by the way, there’s a good chance that this is an Onan/Cummins-specific issue, so steer clear of generalized RV repair yards, because they might not have the institutional knowledge to deal with it.”

^^ That right there *might* have saved this OP at least $1,500 (my regulator and hose retrofit cost me $375). We don’t know what his/her problem is yet, but it does not sound like the top two known issues were checked during all the expensive work that has been done to date.

— End mild rant. —

[Flatfoot]

Thanks to all who have posted so far. You have given me things to pursue.
Some things I failed to mention in my original post: I’ve already taken the coach back to Onan. They basically seem to have no idea what’s going on. They say the problem is something in the coach’s propane system. The dealer that I bought my Ascent from is saying the problem is in the generator itself, so I basically have two shops each pointing the finger at each other. Frustrating, to say the least!

Someone asked which regulator was checked. The rv dealer checked the one near the propane tank, I believe, though I’m not sure. I wasn’t aware that there were two regulators.

The quest continues……..

[InterBlog]

Show-Me State, Onan needs to be more specific for you, if they have not been already. They must elaborate “no idea” by providing you with their punch list of exactly what they ran down, so that your problem can be resolved via process of elimination. DID they tell you that they opened up your onboard regulator and examined the condition of its diaphragm? DID they tell you that they replaced your internal hoses?

One other failure pathway is coming to my mind this morning, a possible issue that I did NOT mention above, and that is as follows.

You most likely have a series of flexible hoses running under your chassis and distributing propane to your various onboard appliances, one of which is your generator. I have four, and when dismounted from my van, they look like this:



Why are those hoses included in van builds? Because they are cheaper than copper. With many (most?) Class Bs, the only places where copper gas lines were installed was for the final segments where the lines penetrate the body of the van to enter and connect to appliances (stove, Atwood furnace, hot water heater, and possibly fridge if you have one of the older gas fridges). That’s because safety code requires copper in interior spaces, but not on the exterior.

Well, those hoses not only fail - they are DESIGNED to fail in a certain controlled way once they exceed 5 years of life. Details omitted here because I wrote all this up in this advisory blog post and this other post describing my DIY hose replacement job (I contracted a local guy to fabricate new hoses for me).

It is possible that you actually have a problem with the flex line running beneath your van from your propane supply to your generator, especially if it is 9 years old and has not yet been replaced. That is not my first instinct given your symptoms, but there are only so many ways a generator can fail and that’s another thing that must be evaluated as you are methodically attacking your punch list (you, not Onan, whose only visible role in this equation is to separate you from your cash).

Please post back the root cause when it gets identified, because the rest of us need to learn it and add it to our knowledge base. That’s the whole point of forums, but that last step is often the one that gets overlooked by newbies and low-volume posters. Thanks.

[Jim Agile]

The Onan 2500 in my 2016 SS Agile developed a similar problem. The symptoms weren't exactly the same but I found that I could keep it running by manually choking it. The problem turned out to be cracks in the internal propane hoses. I purchased some hoses on Amazon that were rated for propane use and replaced the two interior hoses. The generator has run fine since then.

[InterBlog]

We are up to two votes for that potential cause.

What concerns me, however, is that Onan apparently (?) did not advise the OP on this possibility. There is a technical service bulletin regarding it, header image reproduced below. That TSB is immediately available to technicians and should have been the VERY FIRST thing they checked, but it doesn’t sound like they did. Or else they ruled that out and it’s not clear from the posts.

[jjrbus]

Had an RV for over 20 years and have not had an issue with an Ohno in 20 of them. Had a Honda EV6010 for several years and other than that have used Honda EU2000i and now a EU2200i. Sold the EV6010 with an RV and have been kicking myself since! Honda vs Ohno was Rolls Royce to Yugo. I suspect the reason the Honda did not catch on is the dealers would not order them as they were not a cash cow for their business.

Suitcase generators are a pain, no nice start button in the RV, have to monitor gas, figure out how to secure to RV. Power management is another issue. Gas issue can be overcome with an extended run.

Have had 2 fail to start issues in 20 years, one was a fuse and another the pull cord broke. Neither of which cost me either arm to repair! If Onan were a cell phone or a car, few would buy one!

There I feel better now.

[tarp]

Thanks! I have removed and got rid of propane tank and still have a working( but now not w/o propane onan on there.
Seldom, I used the generator for roadside stop ac, nothing else.
Trying to think of next steps with the additional info that I have no concerns about selling and these are in no particular order.
1. Add propane- no, done
2. Add lithium
3. Add newer gas fired onan
4. Add honda to back of vehicle

[tarp]

Generator is propane not gasoline fired as I thought....
I got rid of propane from an earlier decision and not returning to it.
I only use it for roadside 30 minute tops driving break. And seldom.
I usually plug in at campsites but in the south the ac is very important. I don't do anything with an eye to reselling; just enjoying the adventures and self made disasters.

Do I

1. get gasoline fired onan- will the new one fit?
2. find a way to use AGM what I have now, or Lithium
3. Use a honda on back

[jjrbus]

I put far too much time and effort into this but I keep RV long time and it is my hobby. [IMG][/IMG]

[tarp]

I get this. I wonder if one swing out would work as spare tire takes the other side.

[jjrbus]

Originally Posted by tarp

I get this. I wonder if one swing out would work as spare tire takes the other side.

I am sure if you search the web someone has already done it. I knew what I was going to do so looked for a Roadtrek 200 or 210, with no back door. The pleasant surprise was a LG 9500 dual inverter AC fits the AC spot, Honda runs it in ECO mode!

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by tarp

…

Do I

1. get gasoline fired onan- will the new one fit?
2. find a way to use AGM what I have now, or Lithium
3. Use a honda on back

4. Incorporate a small trailer which opens up additional permutations for carrying various kinds of fuel and power.

I catch a lot of flak for that because people ask me why I don’t just buy a Class A if I am going to drag that thing around?

Because versatility. If I were going to haul it on every trip, sure, an A or a C would make more sense. But this trailer is only for extended off-grid trips. We re-plumbed our onboard propane generator to accept external tanks, which I can carry in this trailer, so the sky is the limit on running it if we get 10 days without sun and I need to because the solar is not keeping up. Certainly there are good arguments to be made for standalone generators, but I have to take extra propane anyway for our camp stove (I set up a mess tent) and external hot water heater for the external shower we plan to set up (we do a lot of chain sawing and get filthy, and with no good way to dump gray water or re-fill the onboard fresh water tank, we shower outside of the van using lake water). I’m already married to propane.

We hope to spend an unbroken month off grid this year. We could do that without the trailer, relying solely on the van, but it would unnecessarily close the door to many options. The van’s 300 watts of solar and 300 AH lithium cannot power the fridge, the portable freezer, our lawn mower and other lithium power tools, Starlink, and other draws, especially if we get bad weather.

[jjrbus]

If I were going someplace for a couple weeks and stay I might go the trailer route, possibly even a toad. I rarely stay in a place more than 2 or 3 days so a trailer/toad would be an inconvenience.

I agree with others if I needed extra's all the time I would buy a bigger rv, would be way less hassle.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by jjrbus

…possibly even a toad. ….

Our toad is carried within the trailer and is visible at top photo right - it’s a street-legal motor scooter (top speed 55 mph) that I can use for the 30-mile round trip to the nearest outpost. It’s a 50-mile round trip to the nearest grocery store and it wouldn’t be great for that, but it’s do-able to get to a multi-purpose country store that carries a small selection of grocery items like milk, bread, and eggs.

So, I don’t have to choose between trailer and toad. The latter fits inside the former.

[InterBlog]

Back to the original thread topic, I don’t see any updates from the OP, and I’m still curious as to whether his generator problem was identified, and if so, what was the issue.

So here’s a bump with an 8-second highlight of our generator no longer making us crazy. We re-mounted it yesterday which, like 100% of DIY, took way more hours than it should have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXqGv8TnCd4